Maze stadium plan 'will proceed'

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

We get the market value for the ground the stadium sits on

They buy the stadium off us for Market value
They buy us out of the remainder of the contract

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Dont think the IFA could afford the purchase of Windsor without a government hand-out, but reckon it would be cheaper in the long run than building a ground in Moira, that will very rarely be half full.

Personally speaking, the majority of my best footballing moments have involved a win at Windsor, and i'd hate to see its demise.

Despite it's proximity to the village area, the South, Kop and North stands - ie 95% of the ground - are all accessible from the neutral Boucher Road.

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Originally Posted by SolitudeRed

Well I am not defending the GAA I've already said on this board that I am in no way a fan of the GAA but they seem to be getting made out as the root of all evil here! IMHO to label them all bigots is silly, every GAA head that I know supported the decision to get rid of the contentious rules. Also I feel such criticism is a bit rich coming from any followers of the IL as most clubs in the IL and indeed the leadership of the league have been blighted by accusations of sectarianism in the past whether it was amongst the fans or in terms of policies pursued by some clubs and the IFA. Indeed its fair to say that there are still big problems with sectarianism in the IL and this is one of the big things holding It back. Of course I am not saying that the IL is full of Bigots I am merely saying that there is a minority element in both sports who give them a bad name......he without sin and all that!

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Fair point, well made (imo)

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Originally Posted by AnnaghRed

Dont think the IFA could afford the purchase of Windsor without a government hand-out, but reckon it would be cheaper in the long run than building a ground in Moira, that will very rarely be half full.

Personally speaking, the majority of my best footballing moments have involved a win at Windsor, and i'd hate to see its demise.

Despite it's proximity to the village area, the South, Kop and North stands - ie 95% of the ground - are all accessible from the neutral Boucher Road.

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Ditto.

Ditto.

Ditto. On this last, the fact that Cliftonville chose to play their Intertoto match at Windsor last week shows that its location can't hold that many fears for football fans from other (Nationalist) areas of the city.

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Originally Posted by SolitudeRed

Well I am not defending the GAA I've already said on this board that I am in no way a fan of the GAA but they seem to be getting made out as the root of all evil here! IMHO to label them all bigots is silly, every GAA head that I know supported the decision to get rid of the contentious rules. Also I feel such criticism is a bit rich coming from any followers of the IL as most clubs in the IL and indeed the leadership of the league have been blighted by accusations of sectarianism in the past whether it was amongst the fans or in terms of policies pursued by some clubs and the IFA. Indeed its fair to say that there are still big problems with sectarianism in the IL and this is one of the big things holding It back. Of course I am not saying that the IL is full of Bigots I am merely saying that there is a minority element in both sports who give them a bad name......he without sin and all that!

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The fiasco of the Maze is not the GAA's doing. However there is key difference between GAA bigotry and the bigotry of some Irish League fans. The GAA actively promote bigotry from the very highest level. Clubs, grounds, cups etc are named after convicted terrorists in a move designed to give 2 fingers to the unionist communities.

Examples include the Gerard and Martin Harte memorial cup for 11 yearolds in Tyrone, the volunteer paddy kelly cup, the Hunger striker tournaments in Belfast and Kevin Lynch GAA club playing at Kevin Lynch GAA grounds. GAA president Nicky Brennan took a sunday out in July last year at the height of the GAA season to officiate at the opening that included a paramilitary style parade.

Note the is also a Hunger striker football tournament in Belfast but this does not have IFA sanction and does not involve any clubs affiliated to the IFA.

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Originally Posted by SolitudeRed

Well I am not defending the GAA I've already said on this board that I am in no way a fan of the GAA but they seem to be getting made out as the root of all evil here! IMHO to label them all bigots is silly, every GAA head that I know supported the decision to get rid of the contentious rules. Also I feel such criticism is a bit rich coming from any followers of the IL as most clubs in the IL and indeed the leadership of the league have been blighted by accusations of sectarianism in the past whether it was amongst the fans or in terms of policies pursued by some clubs and the IFA. Indeed its fair to say that there are still big problems with sectarianism in the IL and this is one of the big things holding It back. Of course I am not saying that the IL is full of Bigots I am merely saying that there is a minority element in both sports who give them a bad name......he without sin and all that!

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I'm not saying every single person in GAA is a bigot. But the organisation in Northern Ireland as a whole is. The overwhelming majority showed their narrow minded, dated views.

IL football does have it problems, we know that. We admit to that and we are trying to erradicate that. GAA in Northern Ireland are not making any strides towards the acceptance of other cultures.

Well most GAA people I know are from the south only a couple from up here and even then I don't them that well! Interesting what was said there about the cups but I pretty sure that Kevin Lynch was GAA player with the team from his hometown.

I wonder do the PSNI GAA team play in any of the above mentioned trophies? I very much doubt it:)

Getting back to the Maze debacle I seen the new IFA president on the UTV sports show yesterday talking about how a revamped windsor would be his prefered option, which could make things even more interesting!

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Originally Posted by SolitudeRed

Well most GAA people I know are from the south only a couple from up here and even then I don't them that well! Interesting what was said there about the cups but I pretty sure that Kevin Lynch was GAA player with the team from his hometown.

I wonder do the PSNI GAA team play in any of the above mentioned trophies? I very much doubt it:)

Getting back to the Maze debacle I seen the new IFA president on the UTV sports show yesterday talking about how a revamped windsor would be his prefered option, which could make things even more interesting!

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AFAIK Kevin Lynch's GAA highlights were being captain of a Derry U16 hurling team that beat Armagh in some sort of an All Ireland trophy and being a sub on a Dungiven team that lost a county final. I think it is fair comment to say that it was his exploits in the "struggle for national liberation" rather than on the GAA field that led to the club being called after him. It is of course still official GAA policy to "support the struggle for national liberation" and the last attempt to change this to the "unarmed struggle for national liberation" was overwhelmingly defeated at congress in 1980.

I very much doubt if the PSNI compete for any of those trophies. If the GAA do ever decide to reach out to the unionist community some of them may have an issue with the names of the trophies. However considering the last protestant to win an All Ireland was on the Cavan gaelic team of 1933 I don't think they need to worry too much. The next one will probably be on the next Cavan team to win an All Ireland ......in hurling!!!!!

As for the topic on hand I think a revamped Windsor makes a lot more sense however it will come down to finances.

The Police GAA side, played in 1 friendly AFAIK. I don't think they are a bonefide team.

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Originally Posted by gspain

It is of course still official GAA policy to "support the struggle for national liberation" and the last attempt to change this to the "unarmed struggle for national liberation" was overwhelmingly defeated at congress in 1980.

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I note that you are no longer throwing mud at the Antrim GAA Committee.

The official guide of the GAA
Basic Aim
"The Association is a National Organisation which has as its
basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a
32 County Ireland through the preservation and
promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes."

Non-Party Political/Non-Sectarian
"(a)The Association shall be non-party political. Party
political questions shall not be discussed at its
meetings, and no Committee, Club, Council or
representative thereof shall take part, as such, in any
party political movement. A penalty of up to twenty
four weeks suspension may be imposed for
infringement."
(b)"The Association shall be non-sectarian."

Yet again we have an attempt after producing a featherweight casebook of evidence from which is delivered the damning fire and brimstone verdict against the entire GAA.
Rational people consider the weight and import of evidence.

The GAA in this matter has declared that Belfast is out as a location for a stadium. Any of the 3 organizations can veto a location.
Is there any evidence in this matter of the new stadium that the GAA has acted in way innappropriatly giving offence to the other sporting organizations.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Yet again we have an attempt after producing a featherweight casebook of evidence from which is delivered the damning fire and brimstone verdict against the entire GAA.
Rational people consider the weight and import of evidence.

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Big deal the GAA claims to be non sectarian. So do the IRA btw as do the Loyalist terrorists. The facts say otherwise and the evidence is far from featherweight. Maybe you'd care to examine the facts and dispute them them rather than attack the messenger.

Just to give this a rugby slant. Unless something is done and is more than likely away from Windsor, there wont be any internationals up north. This would be a good opportunity to have a 26,000 stadium in Limerick and something similar or bigger in Blefast to cater for the likes of Samoa etc... Windsor might be as well off getting razed and rebuilt

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Originally Posted by Soko

Just to give this a rugby slant. Unless something is done and is more than likely away from Windsor, there wont be any internationals up north. This would be a good opportunity to have a 26,000 stadium in Limerick and something similar or bigger in Blefast to cater for the likes of Samoa etc... Windsor might be as well off getting razed and rebuilt

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Do you honestly think REAL international Rugby would be played in Northern Ireland?

If we built a 90,000 stadium better than Wembley, better than Croke and better than the new Lansdown. Internationals would still be in Dublin.

Saying that I have a real chip on my shoulder with Ireland Rugby team.

They play the Irish National anthem because the match is in the Republic, but when an under age international is played in Belfast. The Northern Ireland national anthem isn't played. It's an Irish republic team with the odd Ulsterman in it. But it is not a team that represents the people in all 32 counties.

And this is why you'll never get the people of Northern Ireland to agree on an All-Ireland football team.

They should either play both anthems or none of the two anthems IMO.

But anyway, this is getting completely off topic.

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Originally Posted by Soko

Just to give this a rugby slant. Unless something is done and is more than likely away from Windsor, there wont be any internationals up north. This would be a good opportunity to have a 26,000 stadium in Limerick and something similar or bigger in Blefast to cater for the likes of Samoa etc... Windsor might be as well off getting razed and rebuilt

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Why not Windsor?

Windsor is in an ideal location. Just off the City center and right next to a motorway. People of the nationalist persuasion can get in via Boucher road end without any problem.(cliftonville used our stadium in europe).

People don't want Windsor because people in the past has smeared it as being sectarian.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

They play the Irish National anthem because the match is in the Republic, but when an under age international is played in Belfast. The Northern Ireland national anthem isn't played. It's an Irish republic team with the odd Ulsterman in it. But it is not a team that represents the people in all 32 counties.

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Maybe, but the fact there is only the odd Ulsterman in the squad is because they are not good enough. Produce players with quality and they will play.


Define "real" rugby. Whatever stadium will get smaller games, likewise for Thomond. You hardly expect to move all 6 Nations games up to Belfast :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

Why not Windsor?

Windsor is in an ideal location. Just off the City center and right next to a motorway. People of the nationalist persuasion can get in via Boucher road end without any problem.(cliftonville used our stadium in europe).

People don't want Windsor because people in the past has smeared it as being sectarian.

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Its a ****hole. With all the money being proposed on the Maze, why not level Windsor and start from scratch. Its the best location but needs to be completely redone

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Originally Posted by gspain

The fiasco of the Maze is not the GAA's doing. However there is key difference between GAA bigotry and the bigotry of some Irish League fans. The GAA actively promote bigotry from the very highest level. Clubs, grounds, cups etc are named after convicted terrorists in a move designed to give 2 fingers to the unionist communities.

Examples include the Gerard and Martin Harte memorial cup for 11 yearolds in Tyrone, the volunteer paddy kelly cup, the Hunger striker tournaments in Belfast and Kevin Lynch GAA club playing at Kevin Lynch GAA grounds. GAA president Nicky Brennan took a sunday out in July last year at the height of the GAA season to officiate at the opening that included a paramilitary style parade.

Note the is also a Hunger striker football tournament in Belfast but this does not have IFA sanction and does not involve any clubs affiliated to the IFA.

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The IFA failed to take any action against Glentoran when it held a minute's silence for the PUP leader David Ervine last season.

The PUP are after all the political wing of the UVF and the fact they were playing Cliftonville at the Oval made made it all the more obnoxious.

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Originally Posted by gspain

Big deal the GAA claims to be non sectarian. So do the IRA btw as do the Loyalist terrorists. The facts say otherwise and the evidence is far from featherweight. Maybe you'd care to examine the facts and dispute them them rather than attack the messenger.

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I am tired of recycled dogmas no matter from what "side" more especially when they are shoved in at unrelated times.
I examine the facts, not a knee jerk reaction to a fact or supposed fact to support a prejudice.

"Big deal"
The official guide is the authority, it counters the mud that the GAA had taken a clear stand to support (armed) liberation.

Whereas you appear to be stuck in the past, the political situation in NI has moved on.
Not only to the point of the NI Assembly but also to the situ where there is a novel/revolutionary/naive/unworkable but active proposal for groundsharing a stadium, in of all places the Maze.
The question I asked first was, is there any evidence in this matter of the new stadium that the GAA has acted in way innappropriatly, giving offence to the other sporting organizations?

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Originally Posted by co. down green

The IFA failed to take any action against Glentoran when it held a minute's silence for the PUP leader David Ervine last season.

The PUP are after all the political wing of the UVF and the fact they were playing Cliftonville at the Oval made made it all the more obnoxious.

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Presumably Glentoran will argue that Ervine had served his time for his former crimes and had since unequivocally renounced violence and worked for peace. Further, a minutes silence is hardly the same as a tangible and permanent memorial like a club, cup or stadium name. As such, it may be thought justified to remember someone who, as well as being a democratically elected representative, was also a well-known Glens fan.

By contrast, those "honoured" with permanent memorials by the GAA were actively engaged in a terrorist campaign, often with criminal convictions, at the time of their death. They did not have an electoral mandate, nor can we know whether they would have repented like Ervine did, had they lived.

Having said all that, as a Glens fan myself I personally think the club was wrong to do what it did, at least at so sensitive an occasion as a Cliftonville game. :(

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Originally Posted by geysir

The question I asked first was, is there any evidence in this matter of the new stadium that the GAA has acted in way innappropriatly, giving offence to the other sporting organizations?

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Whilst there is a great deal I could criticise the GAA for, that is for another day. I personally feel that on the subject of the Maze, they cannot be condemned for their public* stance, at least, since they are only looking out for their own interests. (Indeed, they are to be admired for cleverly managing their business in the first place, so that they can negotiate from a position of strength)

As such, I actually blame the Government for the way it framed the "rules", whereby all three sports had to be on board, otherwise there would be no money for any stadium. Theoretically this gave each sport a "veto" over the project, but it is obvious to everyone that this is not the case.

The IFA is in no position to deny the Government its pet project, since it's skint. And rugby doesn't give a damn, since it will hardly ever play there; in the meantime, however, they'll go along with it so as not to jeopardise a Government grant to renovate Ravenhill. This leaves the GAA in a position to dominate the whole scheme as to location, capacity etc, since it has got an adequate alternative even if the stadium is never built.


* - I say "public", since there is anecdotal evidence from leading GAA figure, Jarlath Burns, that a behind-the-scenes deal was agreed between the GAA and Sinn Fein, whereby the GAA would support the Maze (desired by SF for the memorial/museum aspect), in return for SF not intervening publicly in the debate over Rule 21/opening Croke Park to soccer and rugby.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Presumably Glentoran will argue that Ervine had served his time for his former crimes and had since unequivocally renounced violence and worked for peace. Further, a minutes silence is hardly the same as a tangible and permanent memorial like a club, cup or stadium name. As such, it may be thought justified to remember someone who, as well as being a democratically elected representative, was also a well-known Glens fan.

By contrast, those "honoured" with permanent memorials by the GAA were actively engaged in a terrorist campaign, often with criminal convictions, at the time of their death. They did not have an electoral mandate, nor can we know whether they would have repented like Ervine did, had they lived.

Having said all that, as a Glens fan myself I personally think the club was wrong to do what it did, at least at so sensitive an occasion as a Cliftonville game. :(

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The families of the young protestant men murdered by the UVF over the last ten years would tend not to share Glentoran's view of Mr Ervine. I am close to one such family and they were distraught when they watched the Irvine tribute on the news.

They saw no repentance from Irvine or the PUP/UVF during their sorrow.