Trade Union Discussion

I shouldn't have posted in this debate in the first place, too close to home and all that. I understand you are nervous especially when someone calls a post libelous and I would have no problem in you passing on my details to anyone who wishes to persue any legal action as a result of my posts.
I still don't see how anything in those posts was libelous as they repeat assertions made in National Newspapers by many persons but here is a link to a collection of articles in the Irish Times some detailing instances of violence on picket lines, etc.

http://www.ireland.com/cgi-bin/dialo...0&QUERY00=BATU

A quote from the National Implementation Body report on these disputes stated
" Many documented cases were presented involving withdrawl/denial of union cards, expulsion for refusal to support list system, etc. BATU deny the context and circumstances of any such decisions but not the impact. Without prejudice to the detail of any paticular case, there is no doubt that, at least in relation to main contractors, BATU can decide who works. This power brings with it grave respoonsiblities and needs to be balanced."

John O'Connell a Limerick brickie stated in the Daily Mail (25/10/06) that "his card was ripped up and he tried to work on other sites but each time strike action followed until the employer let him go".

The Sunday Times from April 20, 2003, Article called Laying Bricks of the Future " November 26; Park Motors again. A safety officer is knocked down and kicked to the ground by a crowd of men for photographing damage to the site managers car. Men confronting the garages manager claim to be from the Building and Allied Trade Union. BATU strenuosly deny these incidents. The next day, warned that they have breached a High Court order, one of the flying pickets replies "**** off" and we don't give a **** about the High Court".
These incidents were detailed in affadavits setting out injunctive proceedings brought by the Collen Group.." The article goes on to say "14 firms have current or pending legal action against BATU".

In a more recent article in the Evening Herald (5/12/06) " A Polish bricklayer has entered into a furious row with his former employers and the BATU workers union claiming that he has been discriminated against because of his nationality..."

From the Examiner 23/2/2006 " The Garda suffered a head injury and was left with minor concussion when she fell during a melee at UCD, Bellfield campus"

From the Irish Times 18/2/2006 " A building company has secured a temporary injunction against the Building and Allied Trade Union after complaining the union is the "prime mover" in an ongoing "campaign of intimidation" on construction sites in Dublin".

From the Irish Independant 12/1/03 " The amin bricklayers union has again abandoned its planned Dublin branch annual meeting due to internal tensions over alleged "instances of intimidation of staff and members" in recent weeks."

From Industrial Relations News 14/1/04 " the CIF states that "sites have been invaded and workers subjected to bullying, threatening and intimidating behaviour."

From Construction Magazine 24/5/03 " The company also allege materials were set ablaze by a crowd of BATU members who rampaged through a North Dublin site as the company met with union representatives nearby"

I know I should have quoted from these before going off on one but anyway hope this gives a good picture.

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John O'Connell a Limerick brickie stated in the Daily Mail (25/10/06) that "his card was ripped up and he tried to work on other sites but each time strike action followed until the employer let him go".

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Why was his card ripped up?

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From Industrial Relations News 14/1/04 " the CIF states that "sites have been invaded and workers subjected to bullying, threatening and intimidating behaviour."

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CIF would say that wouldn't they. Employers often describe pickets as bullying and intimidation.

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From the Examiner 23/2/2006 " The Garda suffered a head injury and was left with minor concussion when she fell during a melee at UCD, Bellfield campus"

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Here's the online edition of the IE from that date;
Where is that article? Would just like to read the whole thing.
I know people who were there and the Gardaí were not innocent victims.
Also the dispute in question occurred because Collen construction refused to employ trade union labour on a council contract in Ballybrack.

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Originally Posted by rebs23

I know I should have quoted from these before going off on one but anyway hope this gives a good picture.

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As long as you link to any claims I don't see an issue now.

Doesn't seem to be available online but I have an actual copy of the article here by Mary Regan the Headline is "Garda hurt in building site clash".

Fair enough.
In relation to the Health and Safety officer incident, allegations of assault were made by Collen Construction in an affadavit in the High Court against persons associated with a picket by members of BATU at their site not against BATU itself. Quote from article below;

The Sunday Times from April 20, 2003, Article called Laying Bricks of the Future " November 26; Park Motors again. A safety officer is knocked down and kicked to the ground by a crowd of men for photographing damage to the site managers car. Men confronting the garages manager claim to be from the Building and Allied Trade Union. BATU strenuosly deny these incidents. The next day, warned that they have breached a High Court order, one of the flying pickets replies "**** off" and we don't give a **** about the High Court".

These incidents were detailed in affadavits setting out injunctive proceedings brought by the Collen Group.." The article goes on to say "14 firms have current or pending legal action against BATU".



The buring of the files of the OPATSI union, these events occured following the release of two member of BATU from prison and the BATU union apologised to OPATSI following this event.

Quote from Article here;

BATU president condemns attack on office of union
By PADRAIG YEATES, Industry and Employment Correspondent

The president of the Building and Allied Trades Union (BATU), Mr Mick McNally, has condemned the attack on the offices of the Plasterers' Union on Friday, when files were thrown into the street and set on fire.


The incident occurred shortly after two building workers were released from prison for defying a High Court order and for unofficially picketing a building site in Ballsbridge, Dublin.

The attack on the Plasterers' Union offices has highlighted divisions which exist between BATU and other building unions over sub-contracting. BATU wants all sub-contractors removed from sites while the other unions approve of a new agreement which seeks to regulate the practice.

...Mr McNally, who is not a member of BWABE, said he intended apologising to the Plasterers' Union on behalf of BATU for the attack. He also confirmed that the matter would be discussed at the next meeting of BATU's national executive.



I hope this clears everything up.

So what you are really saying is that the company who started the dispute by refusing to employ trade union labour made some allegations about members of that trade union, who it was in the process of a dispute with at the time?

Im kind of unwilling to post in this thread anymore since you aren’t aloud to post your opinions, thoughts or relay any stories you have heard with out turning into a mini detective and preparing a book of evidence to accompany it . Despite the law protecting your right not to name your sources . But surely a disclaimer along the lines of “the views displayed on this forum are not he views of anyone associated with Foot.ie !” would cover it .

Ive never heard ( this doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened ) of anybody getting sued for what they posted on an internet chat forum FFS :rolleyes: !!! but since we ve been requested to respect the rules of the forum ill try my best to do so . ( even though ive never read them its like reading the instructions to a new toy no one ever does it :D )

But if the union’s do come looking to flex there financial muscle with a bunch of hot shot lawyers to sue 1 ordinary worker it will just reaffirm everything I believe about there bully boy tactics. I can see the head lines now UNION SUES HANDSOME YOUNG MAN OVER BULLING JIBE . :D

Boh’s sometimes I get the feeling from your posts that you may be too heavily involved to be able to take a neutral view on such topics , I also get the impression that you may even condone some of there action ( re: your scabs get what they deserve comments ) .
I just fear that the people involved will use unacceptable behaviour to protect there interests and that there members will justify there actions to hold onto there power .

The simple truth is that socialism/unions etc can never work, humans are inherently greedy and corrupt the ones that get to the top get corrupted by the power.


(ps if any of this dose break rules etc ill remove it straight away )

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Originally Posted by anto1208

The simple truth is that socialism/unions etc can never work, humans are inherently greedy and corrupt the ones that get to the top get corrupted by the power.

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This notion has been discussed at length in the Socialism thread and has been roundly debunked. look at that, see if you have any new evidence to add and by all means do. Otherwise stop repeating mantra.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

This notion has been discussed at length in the Socialism thread and has been roundly debunked. look at that, see if you have any new evidence to add and by all means do. Otherwise stop repeating mantra.

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there's a socialism thread?? cant believe i wasnt informed, i'm catching the next bus....still waiting, and waiting, and waiting..man how i wish socialism catches on:)

with trade unions its probably worth differentiating between the workplace level issues like anto raises versus on the other hand the wider role that unions play in bargaining, lobbying etc. in terms of the former there should be plenty of anecdotal evidence supported by the progression of the claims , while the latter role mentioned is obviously more political and ideological so i'm sure one could give their opinions on that area, once they are well argued of course

Socialism Thread right here

rebs23's post has been edited on request, so has BohsPartisan's to remove references to his original post, the rest of the related discussion has been moved to the bin. A commentary on the libel rule has been posted here. Since anto1208's post crosses over, I'll add a couple of comments here, but any further comments on this issue should be posted in Support.

1. Stop exaggerating, no-one is asking for a "book of evidence".
2. You're thinking of California's Shield law. We live in Ireland. The site is hosted in Texas. And we're not publishers.
3. There is a disclaimer. You agreed to it when you signed up, presumably without reading it. Your decision to ignore the disclaimer and rules is your problem, not mine.
4. I have heard of people being sued for what they posted on Internet forums. I know forum operators that have been sued in exactly these circumstances. I've received two solicitor's letters myself.

Again, that's it for discussion on this topic in this thread. If you really feel the need to reply - I think you'd be better off if you didn't - then do it in response to the commentary on the rule I linked earlier.

adam