Was Kerr a relative success?

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

1. Even after the two defeats we were going to be in with a chance of qualifying because we had all the minnows next and the others dropped points against them. We then only drew against ALbania under Kerr away and scored a last minute winner at home against them and then gave a splineless performance away to the Swiss in the last game. Rose tinted glasses for that campaign.

2. So not winning two games we should have won is a point in favour of Kerr. Hmmmm....

3. We came close to being hammered in Cyprus but for Shay Given saving a peno etc etc.

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1. the old saying is you beat your opponents at home and draw with them away. we had lost to eventual top teams one at home and one away. we drew away with the swiss but we only drew with the russians at home. however each of these countries had a 6 point head start on us at the start. not an easy task so don't think this campaign can be put down to kerr.

2. i was merely pointing out that the israelites have not been defeated in 3 years and went undefeated through the group. not a point of favour with kerr but he is not alone in not beating them.

3. are you having a laugh. granted we dodged a bullet by getting 3 points and were well out played, played useless and deserved to lose. but to say we were a saved penalty from being hammered!
actual score: cyprus 0 - republic of ireland 1
score if penalty scored: cyprus 1 - republic of ireland 1 ... i can see the headlines: ireland hammered 1 all in cyprus.:eek:

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

no, he had 2 campaigns, we had a poor russian team at home, we should have beta them well, we didnt, then the spineless performance against switzerland,
he had his second chance and blew it

managers dont win games! explain fergusons subsitutions in the CL final all those years ago, or what about martin O neill.........how he has turned around a team which shows on the pitch.i would say managers are extremely important to the perforamce of a team

oh by the way, that czech team are overrated as well,

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Totally incorrect.
1) He did not have two full campaigns. Totally Incontravertable so stop being silly.

2) The Russians are 'poor' are they? There is no relevant evidence in our comparable football histories or infrastructures and player pools to suggest we have any right to term the Russians "poor". Again stop being silly .

3) "explain fergusons subsitutions in the CL final all those years ago, or what about martin O neill" Galwayhoop gave you a perfectly basic introduction to football 101 in his previous post. Read carefully please. Nothing further to add m'lud.

4) Martin O Neill hasn't 'turned it around at Villa' - he's done well in the short term - the only balanced view of his impact will come when he's managed them for a comparable period to his predecessor. Its called judging like with like - I've no doubt he will in time show he's better than the last guy - but that cant be said at this juncture - its called 'jumping to conclusions'


oh and the swiss perform at a level far in advance of our players over the last 4 years - again completely incontravertable

Kerr's time in charge was an absolute disaster as far as Ireland are concerned. We went backwards under him after a reasonable period of success under McCarthy. He had better players to work with than McCarthy but got nothing out of them. When he was let go I for one was glad to see the back of him.

Unfortunately Staunton is by all accounts a poorer manager than Kerr and I always believed his appointment would prove to be a disaster. That doesn't mean I want to see Kerr back. I'd much rather someone with a half decent managerial record were given the job. The FAI have f**ked the appointments up twice in a row. Maybe it'll be third time lucky though I doubt it somehow.

Why isn't he manager at even a mediocre club or country team now? His handlers and friends in the media have been touting him around since his contract wasn't renewed. Still no takers. Hand (who at one stage was managing the Aer Lingus team while manager of Ireland!), McCarthy, Kerr and Staunton should never have been appointed as managers of Ireland.

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Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar

Why isn't he manager at even a mediocre club or country team now? His handlers and friends in the media have been touting him around since his contract wasn't renewed. Still no takers. Hand (who at one stage was managing the Aer Lingus team while manager of Ireland!), McCarthy, Kerr and Staunton should never have been appointed as managers of Ireland.

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most peoplE associated with the Ireland fiasco dont prosper elsewhere....bit of a stigma attached to anyone whos been subjected to association with the FAI

noelys,

lets get this straight, according to you the reason that we are only a mid division european team is down to:

bad managers and nothing to do with players?

nothing to do whatsoever to the fact we have a population of approx. 4 million people, do not have a fully professionall domestic league and also have our sportspeople spread accross gaelic games, rugby, soccer, athletics, and name any other sport you want.

the only good manager we have had in 25 years was jack charlton (he of the long ball game)!

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

3. are you having a laugh. granted we dodged a bullet by getting 3 points and were well out played, played useless and deserved to lose. but to say we were a saved penalty from being hammered!
actual score: cyprus 0 - republic of ireland 1
score if penalty scored: cyprus 1 - republic of ireland 1 ... i can see the headlines: ireland hammered 1 all in cyprus.:eek:

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Selective memory. The performance in that 0-1 game was almost as bad and but for Given (who wasn't playing in the 5-2) it might have been a similar scoreline. Have a look at the thread on that game. RTE described the team performance as "shapeless and leaderless":

http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=30144

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

coincidence, luck!! united should have been dead and buried in that game but for woeful finishing by bayern, saves by schmeichel and they also hit the crossbar from about 6 yards. the fact the goals were scored by the subs is, i think, more of a coincidence than any great managerial excellence. an out stretched leg by sheringham an odd deflection or whatever. both goals came from corners and anyone in the box could of put them away. the winner came as bayern heads dropped as they were facing extra time in a game they should of won comfortably. i'm not one for pointing to individual scenarios as proof of a managers greatness or otherwise. is ferguson a bad manager now because his substitutes in the CL v benfica last year had no impact on the game and united bowed out tamely?

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ok i get what you are saying, but he still had those match winners on the bench!

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Selective memory

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its hardly selective memory as i siad:
'granted we dodged a bullet by getting 3 points and were well out played, played useless and deserved to lose.....'

we could easily of drawn or even lost that game but the fact is we didn't get hammered.

if you want to go down that line about results we got but we could of lost due to saves, last ditch tackles and a rub of the green look no further than holland in sept 2001 where we could of been 3 down inside 20 mins and they should have been awarded a penalty when given tried to get a piggy back off their striker. and also v england (euro 88) but for bonner that day we would of been hammered.

the fact is we bet cyprus in 2005 (albeit very luckily) and got stuffed in 2006. we were not a penalty save from being trashed in 2005 as you stated but we were trashed 10 days ago.

i think Kerr got shafted, he deserved more time.
He then sees the defensive coach at Walsall come in and lose 5-2 to Cyprus.
Gauling ain't the word for it.

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Originally Posted by razor

He then sees the defensive coach at Walsall come in

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Just for info, Paul Merson came clean during the week and said that Stan did no coaching whatsoever at Walsall. I think he was added to the coaching payroll for accounting / budget reasons or something like that.

good god...its worse than we thought.....stans an accounting error!

i think it was tom humphreys who said that stan put out the cones for the reserve training sessions at walsall but didn't decide what they were used for! sums it up really

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Originally Posted by Kevin77

I know hindsight is 20/20, but I am wondering if this question has been considered on here.

Think about it? 5-2 to Cyprus! Cyprus for Christ's sake.

When you look at the team's achievment's in the last World Cup Qualifiers (not great, I know - but they look a million miles from losing 5-2 to Cyprus - we actually beat them home and away). They drew in Paris to the eventual World Cup finalists (France), admittedly lost 1-0 at home - does this seem so bad compared to what might yet happen tonight? They drew twice with eventual World Cup quarter finalists Switzerland (they were boring in the world cup - but we'd take the quarter finals and I'd challenge anyone to say we have worse players on paper than the Swiss). The Israel results were arguably poor results (I'd argue we should have won both, especially the home leg), but it could also be argued we were fiercely unlucky.

Perhaps Kerr was an unlucky manager and had we hung on against Israel maybe that would have been us boring the World to tears against the Ukraine? Perhaps?

What I do know is that under Kerr we never lost 5-2 to feckin Cyprus. The lowpoint was the 2-0 in Basle and probably the Israel games. While we were killed by those results, we were never so utterly humiliated.

Are the players that much worse at his disposal? I'd argue no perhaps much of a muchness? He has lost Roy Keane and Cunningham who were becoming more and more ineffectual with age from the last campaign, but players like Richard Dunne, Stephen Reid, Kevin Doyle and Aiden McGeady have come along either fulfilled their potential or are approaching what we have hoped for.

I read an argument that while we are a team in transition, that is no excuse for losing to a side that equates to no more than a team equivelant to the best of the eircom league garnished with a couple of reasonable strikers that play Champions League football for Greek sides. Not just losing. Getting well and truly hammered.

So in hindsight, perhaps the sacking of Kerr was the worst to happen.

It reminds me of the situation at Newcastle when the fans were calling for Bobby Robson's head. Little did they know that once he was gone, things were going to get far worse under Graham Souness regime.

So what do you think? Did Kerr get more out of a mediocre group of players than we gave him credit for? Or is Staunton just really unlucky and this horrible result is a one off abberation (can we count the 0-4 friendly loss to the Dutch as further proof against him?)?

Anyone?

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Kerr imo was anything but a success we have looked shapeless and leaderless since McCarthys reign and its not the Roy Keane factor it's been the Managers, Brian Kerr started the rot and now Stan is finishing off the job in some style, we are now ranked 4 places lower than Norn Iron, a team beaten at home 3-0 by iceland!!
Cascarino made a good point the other day in that it comes down to the manager to give each player a job to do before the match and the player then applies himself to that job for the 90 minutes regardless, thats exactly what Charlton did and McCarthy to a lesser extent when he followed him up. Telling John Sheridan, a very gifted midfield player, not to play one-twos with the two strickers and to play the ball down the channels at all times, sheridan didnt like the job he was given but he stuck to it and in the end it benefitted the team thru results, whether u agree or disagree with Charltons style or tactics is irrelevant, it got the most important thing and thats results.
What we have been missing is that direction since McCarthy players knowing and doing their jobs for the overall benefit of the team.
Blaming duffer for below par performances since 2002 is no coincidence since McC left weve had no one in the dugout capable of giving the team direction needed!! and the leadership to get results
What has been missing since the McCarthy days is that s

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

i think it was tom humphreys who said that stan put out the cones for the reserve training sessions at walsall but didn't decide what they were used for! sums it up really

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Tom Humpreys!! Quoting a GAA fan who loves to have a slap at soccer at every opportunity isn't the best evidence. Like Humpreys would know what happens at Walsall reserve training sessions :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by wws

Totally incorrect.
1) He did not have two full campaigns. Totally Incontravertable so stop being silly.

2) The Russians are 'poor' are they? There is no relevant evidence in our comparable football histories or infrastructures and player pools to suggest we have any right to term the Russians "poor". Again stop being silly .

4) Martin O Neill hasn't 'turned it around at Villa' - he's done well in the short term - the only balanced view of his impact will come when he's managed them for a comparable period to his predecessor. Its called judging like with like - I've no doubt he will in time show he's better than the last guy - but that cant be said at this juncture - its called 'jumping to conclusions'

oh and the swiss perform at a level far in advance of our players over the last 4 years - again completely incontravertable

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no not two full campaigns, but enough games to turn it around in the first one, maybe you dont watch many irish games but the way ireland lied down for the russians and the swiss was embaressing, and will take a long time to forget
sorry but the russian and swiss, and israel, and swiss again, and a weak french team in paris, were POOR, christ ireland used to beat teams as bad as them years ago, no we get happy if we can beat the likes of cyprus, now and again!
that great game of the world cup.switzerland 0 ukraine 0......great football from great teams.jeez:rolleyes:
and im sure that by the end of the season, martin o neill will have villa in europe.just like he used to do with leicester..you might have remembered that!

hardly putting it forward as proof. i'd class it somewhere between rumour and inuendo. however it is what the scribes are writing regardless

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

no not two full campaigns, but enough games to turn it around in the first one, maybe you dont watch many irish games but the way ireland lied down for the russians and the swiss was embaressing, and will take a long time to forget
sorry but the russian and swiss, and israel, and swiss again, and a weak french team in paris, were POOR, christ ireland used to beat teams as bad as them years ago, no we get happy if we can beat the likes of cyprus, now and again!
that great game of the world cup.switzerland 0 ukraine 0......great football from great teams.jeez:rolleyes:
and im sure that by the end of the season, martin o neill will have villa in europe.just like he used to do with leicester..you might have remembered that!

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remind me what the swiss and ukraine game was again? oh yeah a world cup qtr final. Will ya giver over fer fecks sake. Its as plain as the nose on your face that our players are not in that bracket. Hiddink and O Neill could manage them now and they'd still be a poor quality panel

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

martin o neill will have villa in europe.just like he used to do with leicester..you might have remembered that!

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you said before that o'neill and ferguson were great managers. and they are. ferguson has shown his true quality with a top drawer team and o'neill with teams who usually overachieve under him - he has never had a top quality team (ie one full of genuine world class players) and it is up for debate if the tactics he used with leicester and celtic and i presume uses at villa (haven't seen much of villa so correct me if i'm wrong) his tactics use big front players (heskey @ leister and hartson @ celtic) with the ball going up to them quickly and is based on a strong defence (usually 5 at the back using wing backs) and a strong midfield (lennon at both leister and celtic).

of the 2 i reckon o'neill would be better for us as he is a massive motivator and gets the best out of players. to be fair to delaney :eek: i reckon he thought that o'neill would take the job and thats why kerr was chopped. but he should of found out who was coming in before getting rid of kerr to replace him with a novice.

in short the o'neill line is a moot point as he was offered the job and didn't want it for whatever reason. supposidly his wife's sickness but he applied for england job a couple of months later so don't know about that. anyway as pointed out before no manager has gone on to better things after taking us as long as i can remember - unless mcCarthy's first season at sunderland where he won the championship but had a mare in the premiership. giles, hand, charlton, kerr none have had gainful managerial employment after ireland job. and i doubt stan will get a call off man u or real madrid after he finishes with us.... but maybe he will

Yes he did alright with limited resources and should of been given more time , people seem to think that because we have premiership players we should be doing great . I think the real problem is that ignoring the hype from Sky Sports/The Times/Irish Independent/Evening Herald and the Sun whom Rubert Murdoch has a vested interest in, the premiership is a dreadful league in recent years and the standard and technique is simply not good enough most teams play either a counter attacking game or long ball game , even England who appartenty have the best team in the world again are struggling with a team full of Sky Gladiators.I think if we are ever to be a force again more of our players need to play outside of the premiership and we should employ a European coach.