Work continues at Corrib gas terminal site

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Originally Posted by Student Mullet

There's a bit of a difference between growing crops and (for example) manafacturing microchips. No matter how hard they tried, the people of Leixlip could never have built a pentium processor under their own steam. Similarly, the people of Mayo were never going to find that gas, let alone get it up and refine it, through their own initiave. Multinational companies are (at worst) a necessary evil.

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No but a government owned company democratically owned by the government, the local community and the workers - who are the real experts could have.
The first man made object in space wasn't put there by a multinational corporation, it was put their by a planned economy. The meningitus vaccine wasn't discovered by a corporation either but by a planned economy. The expertise still exists whether you have the entity that is the corporation or not. Under a democratically planned economy, that expertise could be put to work in the interests of peoples' actual needs and not the profit of Shell.

What is a planned economy? Communism? I think we can see that was not successful as couldn't feed its own people. The Workers Party get a few thousands votes in our general elections which shows how much support they don't have.

For anyone to suggest Ireland would be a better place without multinationals is insanity. Its not worthy of debate.

Interesting debate on Primetime last night with both sides twisting the facts. Seems the Shell to Sea people want the Terminal somewhere else but in their area - even preferred to have on the shore or in shallow water off the coast. Seemed a contradiction as surely this would not be good is a scenic area?

Both sides calimed to know that the locals favoured. Shell to sea claimed that local communities must be allowed to decide what gets built in their area. To follow this logic would mean nothing built in this country due to so many nimbys. Shell were consulting with locals to change the pipe route which seems to be an admission that maybe not the best route currently. Shell also said was 2 million miles of pipes overland in North America so its surprising with so many they not exploding on a weekly basis.

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Originally Posted by pete

What is a planned economy? Communism? I think we can see that was not successful as couldn't feed its own people. .

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While I do not agree with the undemocratic nature of the USSR and associated states, it is a fact that between the 1930's and the early 70's the Soviet economy was the most successful the world has ever seen. Russia went from being a backward feudal third world country with a 15th century economy in 1917 to being the second world superpower after the US in the post war period. There was universal healthcare, universal education and everyone had a roof over their heads. Compare that to Russia today. Since the fall of the Soviet Union life expectancy has fallen from 76 yrs to 54 yrs. Cuba has an average life expectancy of twenty years greater than Russia. The Cuban biochemistry sector came up with the meningitus vaccine. They have a health service many times superior to the one we have here, despite our great wealth and despite the fact that Cuba has faced economic sanctions from the US for decades.
I'm not one to gloss over the problems that faced the Soviet economy. The massive bureaucracy that grew out of Stalin's political counter-revolution choked the planned economy. Quotas being set by bureaucrats rather than experts in the field brought about inefficiancies in certain areas, but the fact remains that the planned economy was proven successful and no amount of capitalist propaganda can kill the truth.

what i was getting at - in most cases the EIA are very hard to pass etc. - but an board pleanala can always have there own people do the the EIA if they are not happy with the independent results

as regards the pipelin - yea grand whatever the chances are of it blowing up - sure 10-20 fatalities

but the aluminium poisoning will be there for donkeys - pete go down drink a glass of local water and then check your blood - guarantee youd be over EU "allowable" levels many fold

that constant poisoning could kill far more people with cancers alzhimers etc. over the decades when the pipes are long emptied

but whos to say where the actual causes for the cancers etc. came from - maybe its from the venting of impurities during the purification process - i dont know plenty of possibilities - plenty of blame and theyll all be long dead before the finger pointing - handy

most of you are thinking way to short term

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Originally Posted by corbyeire

...but the aluminium poisoning will be there for donkeys - pete go down drink a glass of local water and then check your blood - guarantee youd be over EU "allowable" levels many fold

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If this was the case how did they get Planning Permission. Given how strict our planning laws (look how long the process takes to build anything) I can't see how they would get past.

Most of our rivers are already polluted by argiculture anyway so i would be drinking from many untreated sources.

(If ye want a pro v anti communism thread i can slit into new thread)

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Originally Posted by pete

If this was the case how did they get Planning Permission. Given how strict our planning laws (look how long the process takes to build anything) I can't see how they would get past.

Most of our rivers are already polluted by argiculture anyway so i would be drinking from many untreated sources.

(If ye want a pro v anti communism thread i can slit into new thread)

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Well on the pro/anti Socialism thing I was simply replying to you and it does have a context in this thread but if you have more to say on the issue feel free to split it.

On planning permission, this is Ireland. A brown paper envelope in the FF tent at the Galway races can go along way towards your planning permission. In my neck of the woods alone you have an incinerator being built within spitting distance of a Unesco world heritage site, not to mention a highly populous area. You also have the centre of Ireland's ancient civilisation being desecrated to build a motorway when other routes were available.

Food for thought

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Food for thought

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I am sure the Nigerian case as seriously dodgy as its a basket case country but see no similarities in the Rossport issue.

It was 100% to keep the Rossport Five in prison & they were only freed when Shell stepped in. The gardai have to protect the site as the protestors are obstructing a place of work which is an illegal action.

The construction of the Corrib gas terminal is of strategic importance to the State. We get most of our electricity from gas & i beleive we import 3/4 of this. A problem with the interconnector gas pipe to the UK or the choice of the operator to up the price of transporting the gas would leave the irish state very venerable. While i am sure we will pay more or less market price for the corrib gas the fact that Shell have no option to transport abroad means can lock into long term contract to guarantee energy for this state. Writing off exploration costs against future profits is standard practice for a lot of industries similar to R & D costs.

The compulsary purchase of land seems strange but the protestors would be better using their energy to challenge this constitutionally.

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Originally Posted by pete

The construction of the Corrib gas terminal is of strategic importance to the State. .

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Which is exactly why it should be in state hands.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Which is exactly why it should be in state hands.

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The state does not have any expertise in oil or gas exploration. If the state tried to explore fpr oil and gas would cost twice what private enterprise will cost to do it. Exploration costs are massive around the irish coast & only not feasable due to rising oil and gas prices.

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Originally Posted by pete

The state does not have any expertise in oil or gas exploration. If the state tried to explore fpr oil and gas would cost twice what private enterprise will cost to do it.

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:rolleyes:

The shareholders of Shell Oil have no expertise in Oil or gas exploration either.
Venezuala is a perfectly good example of how a state can exploit its own resources and fix prices for the good of its own population (and others, Venezuala has provided cheep gas to poor US citizens!).
Anyway, what about Bord Gas?

If a state company was to exploit this resource and even if your dubious claim that it would cost twice as much, the return to the state purse would be such that the state would still be way better off than it is now.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

If a state company was to exploit this resource and even if your dubious claim that it would cost twice as much, the return to the state purse would be such that the state would still be way better off than it is now.

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Its easy to take gas from the ground when you know where it is. Neither you or I have any idea how much it has cost the Corrib consortium to get this far or how many sectors they have explored & found nothing or extractable value.

It is not the states job to engage in such activities as it is not setup to make profits from enterprise. Ireland doesn't have anywhere near the sale of natural resources that a country such as Venezuala has to make viable anyway.

You are missing the fundamental point. Shell as an entity in its own right is nothing. It employs the people who are expert in oil and gas exploration. There is nothing to stop a state company set up for this precise purpose from doing likewise.
You talk about what is and what is not the state's job, but there is no strict definition of that. It depends on your point of view and what economic school of thought you come from. It was an ideological descision to give this resourse away to Shell.

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Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

So the State have no obligation to try and get the best deal for the country, economic and otherwise? Pull the other one Pedro

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Neither of us know the exact financial situation with exploring the irish waters for gas & oil. If there was a lot of it there companies would have been queuing up years earlier. I just assume the state decided that no one would explore if royalties due - however i will concede something like 5% would hardly be likely to put big business off.

However even if the Shell to Sea people are 100% correct in all their facts they have still been illegally blocking the construction site. It is the duty of the gardai to uphold the laws of the state & seems they have really tried not to be confrontational. Unfortunately the protestors have a history of illegal blockades, failure to adhere to court orders & intimadation of anyone who disagress with them. I would be disappointed if the state gave into such intimadation & mob rule.

We have an extensive planning process in this country & appeals are very easy to enact. Given how much time & energy the protestors have invested why have they been unable to overturn through the courts. I find the comparison with Nigeria insulting as we are a democratic EU state & not a tribal african basket case.

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Originally Posted by pete

It is the duty of the gardai to uphold the laws of the state .

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So how come they are not too keen to make arrests when it comes to white collar crime. The AIB and NIB scandals a few years back were Robberies up there with the Northern Bank.
When have you ever seen 180 Gardaí deployed in such a manner for any other reason? Why are they not as enthusiasticly taking on the drug barons?

As for the Gardaí not being confontational, are you mad? Several women had to be taken to hospital with injuries recieved from the Gardaí. It is Shell and the state who are guilty of intimidation and the protesters should not let themselves be bullied.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

So how come they are not too keen to make arrests when it comes to white collar crime. The AIB and NIB scandals a few years back were Robberies up there with the Northern Bank.
When have you ever seen 180 Gardaí deployed in such a manner for any other reason? Why are they not as enthusiasticly taking on the drug barons?

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I am not disagreeing with you but separate debate.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

As for the Gardaí not being confontational, are you mad? Several women had to be taken to hospital with injuries recieved from the Gardaí. It is Shell and the state who are guilty of intimidation and the protesters should not let themselves be bullied.

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If someone decided to picket my place of work & had a BLOCKADE then tough luck. You reap what you sow 'n all that.

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Originally Posted by pete

If someone decided to picket my place of work & had a BLOCKADE then tough luck. You reap what you sow 'n all that.

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Thats a fairly arbitrary statement though as I have no idea where you work or what reason anyone would have for blockading your workplace. Put it this way if your company or whatever were endangering my life, my family and friends' lives and my community/environment, I'd be blockading it and saying to them, "you reap what you sow".

My other point is relevent in this discussion it shows how the law is unbalanced in favour of the rich and that if the ordinary Joe or Josephine wants to stand up for themselves they sometimes have to break the law to get a hearing.

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Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

LTID and Pete, you are missing one fundamental point. Ray Burke GAVE Shell, repeat that, Ray Burke gave, a company with a proven track record in bribing officials, the rights to extract gas from Ireland at no net benefit to the Irish people.

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This I did not know and if it's true it would probably change my opinion somewhat.

I still can't stand those protesters but my views on whether or not Shell should be there in the first place would probably change

The Government only recently gave away further total rights to our natural resources. Again we'll have to pay full market price, with not even garantee's about access at that full market price, to commercial companies. There will be no benefit to the country, just as there isn't in the case of Rossport. As the resources become more scarce, then the more expensive, deeper extraction becomes more viable - hence the interest off our west coast now, which is shamefully being given away. The Government could employ experts and we could sell the rights to finds, even if we didn't want a state company to do the extraction. That's all incidental I suppose....

170 Gards is more than's normally on duty in the whole state for the night shift. This all happens the same week as a mother, who already has to children in crumlin as a result of a fire bombing, is driven from here home with apparantly the police force not having the manpower to deal with it. The politicians should be ashamed of themselves doing a multinationals bidding for them while this type of thing is going on.

AFAIK the Shell to Sea people are not opposing the gas extraction itself (hence the name of their group) but just want it near their village?