Roddy Collins : Clown of the highest order

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Originally Posted by Shelsman

Here is my opinion of where the eL stands at the moment:

Why the eL has made so much progress recently:

- Full Time teams
- Summer Soccer
- The Setanta Cup ( more matches at a higher level )
- ITV Digital Collapse ( a lot of players came back, fewer went over )
- The emergence of many new, small nations in Europe e.g. Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Macedonia ( a lot of our wins have been against teams from countries that didn't exist 50 or 60 years ago ).

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- Fulltime teams and summer soccer made the biggest impact i think. Setanta, i think clubs are twigging that there is good money to be made and they took it more serious this year.
- ITV, yeah ... to an extent, but its eL clubs that should be linking with junior clubs to stop players moving abroad, or at least come up through the system.
- The last point, ah no i'd say ... look at the numbers in those countries.

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What is holding us back:

- Lack of investment, we need the Irish Millionaires to invest in Irish Clubs, not English ones
- Lack of support from the general public ( how many million is being lost from 'fans' buying Man Utd, Arsenal, Celtic jerseys and spending €500 a pop to go to one match a year at Old Trafford or wherever ).
- Competition from the GAA and Rugby ( Red Star Belgarde don't have to worry about that although I 'm sure they have other sports )
- Stadiums that are simply not good and certainly not big enough. Surely City would have got 20-25,000 at the first leg of the Red Star game and consequently 4-5 times the income in gate receipts? I would like to see City team up with Munster Rugby and develop a 25,000 seater stadium together.
Also for Bohs and Shels to ground share ( though I do believe that a clubs stadium is a big part of it's identity -though it does work for AC and Inter! ).

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- Investment is brutal, but its not at a level where its good to invest
- General public are a crying shame, something to be embarrassed about but the league needs to convert them. Attitudes need to change.
- Basketball is huge in that part of the world, 20,000+ crowds, serious stuff over there.
- Stadia size is an issue but i'd rather see 10,000 at games every week rather than 30,000 flash in the pan. Councils should be providing stadia, and not marginalising huge sections of the community by having huge GAA stadia full once a year. Ridiculous.

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The way forward:

- Get more investment from the FAI and the Government
- Don't panic and keep plugging away, we are slowly getting there
- Expand the Setanta Cup to include Scottish ( and Welsh ) teams. This is a competition that is played at a higher level than the eL and one where our teams play a good number of matches every year.
- Other than this, we really do need some Irish Abramovices, we do have them but they are only interested in English and Scottish clubs. Here's hoping I win a bumper Euromillions! :)

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- This will never happen unless clubs and more importantly (and the only thing that will swing it to be honest) supporters groups need to lobby and pressure for this investment. There is no effort done on this level, zero, nada, not a dot !!
- We are doing fine, with all the obstacles put infront of us we are doing unreal, the print media for the large part are completely against us, our national broadcaster is not worth talking about, i dont know whether to laugh or cry at them. FAI for years (and some say they still do) treat the league with contempt, pathetic captical funding which is criminal it is so unjust, all the petty infighting and the fragmented structure that exists in Irish football. We are doing very well and dont let anyone tell you different.
- Why do you want to have other league having the chance at taking the prize money ??? I cannot understand this, if for any reason the extra travel costs ?? This does not make sense, the argument for just doesn't hold water

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Originally Posted by Shelsman

Surely City would have got 20-25,000 at the first leg of the Red Star game and consequently 4-5 times the income in gate receipts? I would like to see City team up with Munster Rugby and develop a 25,000 seater stadium together.

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But we can't have a situation where a 25,000 growd is built for 5,000 people. If 25,000 turn up for a game involving Cork in Europe, then we have to make sure there are 25,000 home fans there, and not going there to watch the opposition, like when Coruna visited Shels. Officially, the Spaniards had 20 fans supporting them then. Unofficially, they had 20,000+. :(

Council do not build stadia for the GAA. GAA clubs build stadia for the GAA, the most that occasionally happens is that COuncils will donate some land. The tallaght stadium maybe a worthwhile project, but in national terms its a rare one.

Of course nobody has mentioned the need to restructure the leabue. Nor have they mentioned that we still have 5 teams in a city of 1 million (6 with Bray) and that that is a major problem in the development of the league.

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Originally Posted by Clones Road Cas

Council do not build stadia for the GAA. GAA clubs build stadia for the GAA

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With a little help from the taxpayer in the form of generous grants, No?. Contrast this with the experience of St Patricks Athletic, awarded a grant (sometime around the turn of the century I think, it's so long ago I can't remember) to build a new stand. We're still waiting for the cash.

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Of course nobody has mentioned the need to restructure the leabue. Nor have they mentioned that we still have 5 teams in a city of 1 million (6 with Bray) and that that is a major problem in the development of the league.

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Hmm, but four of those five teams would be among the best supported in the country(ok, I may be stretching the point with Shels:D ) - they are all certainly in the top half dozen crowds wise. So what do you want to do ? restrict Dublin to maybe two clubs and bring in Country clubs who wouldn't be as strong ? If clubs can survive in the top Division, financially and playing wise, then no-one has the right to "restructure" them out of existence. If they are so weak that they can't survive they will go to the wall anyway, like Dublin City.

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Originally Posted by Clones Road Cas

Of course nobody has mentioned the need to restructure the leabue. Nor have they mentioned that we still have 5 teams in a city of 1 million (6 with Bray) and that that is a major problem in the development of the league.

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No offense but that is rubbish. There are 1.2 million people in the capital and 5 clubs is enough but to suggest that this is a major problem:rolleyes:

KOH

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Originally Posted by TonyD

With a little help from the taxpayer in the form of generous grants, No?. Contrast this with the experience of St Patricks Athletic, awarded a grant (sometime around the turn of the century I think, it's so long ago I can't remember) to build a new stand. We're still waiting for the cash.

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I want to knock this GAA/Government conspiracy thing on the head. The GAA get their grant money through exactly the same system as the EL clubs. So why do they get money and we don’t?

1. Grant money is given out as a percentage of how much money the organization puts in itself. EL clubs invest NOTHING in their infrastructure and therefore cannot top this up with grant money. GAA clubs fund-raise within their membership so they can legitimately get money off the government grant schemes. This is true even of mega-projects such as Croke Park where the GAA put up massive amounts of its own money.

2. A condition of allocating grant money is that the sporting body has a valid tax clearance cert. I would guess that virtually all of the ELs 22 clubs have lapsed in their TCC over the last 5 years. I know for a fact that Bohs have lost their TCC several times over that period and restructured their payments. The winding up orders against Shels, and Cork plus Rovers in examinership confirm as a FACT that those clubs have too. Not to mention the difficulties that Derry, Drogheda, Dublin City, Waterford have got into. Now you could argue that the GAA don’t pay their sportsmen and they have a lower cost base so it is easier for them to stay tax compliant, and this would be true, but when I challenged the Bohs board as to why they signed a player we obviously couldn’t pay wages too the response was… “we took a flyer at it, we had a gamble, you never know what might of happened if we won the league.” This attitude is rampant in the EL and all the clubs are rotten with boom/bust economics. When clubs withhold the PAYE and PRSI that the players pay they are stealing from the government – and now you want the government to top up the theft with more money?

3. Pats are also a great club to bring up with regard to grant money. The whole EL is regarded with suspicion when it comes to grant because Pats and some other spent grant money on players wages.


The GAA don’t get favourable treatment. They are just better organized at using the system and fighting their corner. The EL clubs would rather f*ck it up, whinge about it, and try to blame somebody else.

will ya stop using the population of 1.5 milion as if they are potential football supporters. soccer is not our nartional sport and will always be a poor second to ga and all the restructering marketing and tinkering may improve things but not to the level of having 6 well supported in the city

Where did I say they were potential support?

I was just outlining that there are 5 (not 6) clubs in a capital city of 1.2 million. In London out of a population of 7.5 million there are 13 clubs.

One point is the 5 clubs here have potential something that monaghan doesnt have.


KOH

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Originally Posted by Vitruvian Man

Pats are also a great club to bring up with regard to grant money. The whole EL is regarded with suspicion when it comes to grant because Pats and some other spent grant money on players wages.

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thats just BS Vitruvian Man. we NEVER got the grant. at NO stage did they give the money over. its amazin how an incorrect story in the indo is taken as gospel on the bohs board

theres politics being played with the money because its all bound up in where the chips fall - ie WHO GOES WHERE and when groundwise

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Originally Posted by passerrby

will ya stop using the population of 1.5 milion as if they are potential football supporters. soccer is not our nartional sport and will always be a poor second to ga and all the restructering marketing and tinkering may improve things but not to the level of having 6 well supported in the city

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Everyone breathing is a POTENTIAL supporter

there are approx 4.2million people in the 26 counties - 21 clubs = 200,000 potential support per club. Therefore 5 clubs in Dublin is a perfect figure.

& as i have said before (loads of times!) we just have to seperate them & market them properly - related to their catchment areas.
1 for each of the 3 county council areas and 2 for Dublin city council area - 1 northside & 1 southside. this gives 5 similarly populated catchment areas, all within Dublin, but all easily seperately identified. So you can support your local team against other Dublin clubs & yet support any Dublin team (in Europe, Cup, Setanta, whatever) if you wish. What about 'Shamrock Rovers SDCC', or 'St.Patricks Dublin City (South)'

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Originally Posted by passerrby

will ya stop using the population of 1.5 milion as if they are potential football supporters. soccer is not our nartional sport and will always be a poor second to ga and all the restructering marketing and tinkering may improve things but not to the level of having 6 well supported in the city

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Most provincial clubs in this league are located in towns with absolutely minute populations - Longford, Ballybofey, Monaghan, Cobh etc. - all tiny, all have an el club. Even if you took the specific districts that the Dublin clubs would be associated with in terms of a catchment area for support, your still talking about population figures way in excess of the maximum that most other clubs could state. Tallaght alone is bigger (population wise) than Limerick, the third largest city in the state. Even the student population of UCD is bigger than Kilkenny city FFS!

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Originally Posted by Vitruvian Man

I want to knock this GAA/Government conspiracy thing on the head. The GAA get their grant money through exactly the same system as the EL clubs. So why do they get money and we don’t?

1. Grant money is given out as a percentage of how much money the organization puts in itself. EL clubs invest NOTHING in their infrastructure and therefore cannot top this up with grant money. GAA clubs fund-raise within their membership so they can legitimately get money off the government grant schemes. This is true even of mega-projects such as Croke Park where the GAA put up massive amounts of its own money.

2. A condition of allocating grant money is that the sporting body has a valid tax clearance cert. I would guess that virtually all of the ELs 22 clubs have lapsed in their TCC over the last 5 years. I know for a fact that Bohs have lost their TCC several times over that period and restructured their payments. The winding up orders against Shels, and Cork plus Rovers in examinership confirm as a FACT that those clubs have too. Not to mention the difficulties that Derry, Drogheda, Dublin City, Waterford have got into. Now you could argue that the GAA don’t pay their sportsmen and they have a lower cost base so it is easier for them to stay tax compliant, and this would be true, but when I challenged the Bohs board as to why they signed a player we obviously couldn’t pay wages too the response was… “we took a flyer at it, we had a gamble, you never know what might of happened if we won the league.” This attitude is rampant in the EL and all the clubs are rotten with boom/bust economics. When clubs withhold the PAYE and PRSI that the players pay they are stealing from the government – and now you want the government to top up the theft with more money?

3. Pats are also a great club to bring up with regard to grant money. The whole EL is regarded with suspicion when it comes to grant because Pats and some other spent grant money on players wages.


The GAA don’t get favourable treatment. They are just better organized at using the system and fighting their corner. The EL clubs would rather f*ck it up, whinge about it, and try to blame somebody else.

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All very convincing on the surface. Maybe the system suits the GAA better...
What matters is not the process, but the outcome of the process.
Every time the disparity in funding between the codes is raised, some Reagonomics nut comes out with this nonsense about 'whinging'.

VM. the GAA approach this as an homogeneous entity and get the funding no matter what.

the FAI wont even make a public utterance of support for Rovers re the GAA taking the government to court to block public funds being used for other sports.

they are organised, efficient and get the job done. we have the FAI. thats the difference.

tell you what ny hoop we have more potential of having somewhere to play every week
Potential your al mad i tel ya mad ha ha ha ha ha ha ah ha ha ha

Roddy was at the Carlisle grounds with the Gretna scouts tonight, taking his 30 pieces of silver to sell out the secrets of Derry City to the Scottish side.

Then he will moan about Irish sides................

For the first time ever | am going to agree with a Rovers fan over a Bohs fan.

RTID you are right - Boh Diddley you are wrong.









EDIT
I'll just repeat a little tittle-tattle I heard recently.
It is alleged that Olliver Bourne, the chairman of a foreign football club from another country called Estonania or Russioa (but definately not Ireland) was in with the tax officials of that country recently demanding that they sign a letter that they will not pursue his club Hell-born for the recovery of grant moneys paid for the development of Perestroika Park for 30 days after they leave their home ground - having sold it to a developer called Ossie Donegal.

When the Revenue Commisars declared that they didn't see why they shouldn't get their cash up front as per the law of the Motherland - Mr Bourne broke off the meeting.

Speculation is rampant in Pravda and other state news agencies that the chairman of Hell-born was investigating whether he could fold the club (and it's debts) and re-set-up... minus the large sum of roubles owed to all and sundy by Hell-born around the town of St Dublinsburg.


FACT




Or is it ????

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Originally Posted by NY Hoop

Where did I say they were potential support?

I was just outlining that there are 5 (not 6) clubs in a capital city of 1.2 million. In London out of a population of 7.5 million there are 13 clubs.

One point is the 5 clubs here have potential something that monaghan doesnt have.


KOH

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I may be delusional but i have no delusions that Monaghan will be anywhere next or near the top table if the league is resturctured.

Londonn with 5 times the population has only twice as many clubs. Thats what you posted and you still cant see a problem. Add in the fact that the market for el football in Ireland is always going to smaller than the total population and smaller than the market for english football.

Someone else says the five dublin clubs are sustainable. Sustainable means being up to date with tax, having a secure home and making a bit of progress. If the FAI were serious about enforcing licensing, how many of the 5 would get one, without all the loopholes and undertakings being given.

Sure 5 dublin teams can survive, but they cant progress. Your fighting over a small pool of fans and a small pool of sponsorship.

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Originally Posted by Maribor

Roddy was at the Carlisle grounds with the Gretna scouts tonight, taking his 30 pieces of silver to sell out the secrets of Derry City to the Scottish side.

Then he will moan about Irish sides................

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if he helps Gretna knock us out, he gets his point proven, and gets paid for it in the process. Complete hypocit :mad:

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Originally Posted by Clones Road Cas

Sustainable means being up to date with tax, having a secure home and making a bit of progress.

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Sure UCD are the smallest club in Dublin and they've been the most tax compliant and are secure in their stadium. The amount of clubs in Dublin have nothing to do with it, it's how they're run.

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Originally Posted by Maribor

Roddy was at the Carlisle grounds with the Gretna scouts tonight, taking his 30 pieces of silver to sell out the secrets of Derry City to the Scottish side.

Then he will moan about Irish sides................

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unlucky for gretna if they take advice off him, it will probably work out better for derry.;)