National Anthem

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Originally Posted by David

Yet more Derry City nonsense. How are they sang in a "sectarian spirit"? They are patriotic songs and there is no problem with them. How can you possibly condemn them but not the playing of the Irish National Anthem? What is the difference?

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There is a difference David, and you know it.

The vast majority of posters on thsi thread have criticised the playing of Amhrann na bhFiann at the Setanta Final as inappropriate. How you can therefore try to twist that into negating criticism from anyone of Linfield fans for singing tribal anthems - particularly at games involving support primarily from a non-Unionist community - is beyond me. We're all criticisng the playing of the Irish anthem. You're conveniently ignoring that criticism to say that we're now no longer able to criticise Linfield fans for singing GSTQ etc at a time of their choosing.

Can't you just drop the agenda for a moment please....

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

Uhm, there's a fair few people saying that the anthem didn't belong at the final, why would that automatically mean they don't mind GSTQ or Rule Britannia? You seem to be content that this gaffe was made at the final as if you feel two wrongs are making a right. Rangers are undergoing a grilling for having a repertoire which is identical to yours. Does you club enjoy having an almost identical repertoire of songs as another club?:confused: Could you not think up of some unique football songs for yourselves?

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Rangers are getting a grilling over the likes of the Billy Boys etc and anyone criticising our support for singing this I will agree with them. Can you tell me what is offensive about GSTQ or RB? It is part of our identity, it is what we are about. We are a British club with patriotic supporters singing British songs, where is the problem in that? I don't feel that two wrongs are making a right because I do not see either as being wrong. My preference would be that our support sing Linfield songs but that is my personal preference and I see no wrong whatsoever in people singing RB or GSTQ as there is nothing offensive in what they are singing. It is not sectarian in any way, if it was I would be the first to complain. I am all for an all Ireland League but if that means people trying to surpress our identity then I could very quickly change my mind. Accept us for what we are. Yes we all want rid of sectarian stuff but the aforementioned songs certainly do not fall into that category.

You make an argument which superficially sounds very reasonable. "We're a British football club, with British fans, why can't we sing the British anthem?". I ride an Irish bus every morning with Irish people. Do we sing Amran na bhFiann? No we don't. I attend an Irish university every with Irish people. Do we sing the anthem? No we don't. I attend a League of Ireland game most weeks, to support an Irish club, with my fellow Irish fans. Do we sing the anthem? No we don't. There are many many British clubs out there, very few of whom feel the need to sing GSTQ. Yes, they're not sectarian per se, but I think you know what I'm getting at and you prefer to hide behind pedantry. My feeling is as a well supported and large club in an Irish context, you should have a proud identity backed primarily by football songs and try to step out of Rangers shadow and be something other than Rangers junior club.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

You make an argument which superficially sounds very reasonable. "We're a British football club, with British fans, why can't we sing the British anthem?". I ride an Irish bus every morning with Irish people. Do we sing Amran na bhFiann? No we don't. I attend an Irish university every with Irish people. Do we sing the anthem? No we don't. I attend a League of Ireland game most weeks, to support an Irish club, with my fellow Irish fans. Do we sing the anthem? No we don't. There are many many British clubs out there, very few of whom feel the need to sing GSTQ. Yes, they're not sectarian per se, but I think you know what I'm getting at and you prefer to hide behind pedantry. My feeling is as a well supported and large club in an Irish context, you should have a proud identity backed primarily by football songs and try to step out of Rangers shadow and be something other than Rangers junior club.

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We have many Linfield songs and these are sang at games but these other songs are also sang and are not the sole preserve of Rangers and I see no problem in it.

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Originally Posted by David

We have many Linfield songs and these are sang at games but these other songs are also sang and are not the sole preserve of Rangers and I see no problem in it.

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Why are only the non-footballing ones audiable on TV? You prefer to sing them with more gusto?

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

Why are only the non-footballing ones audiable on TV? You prefer to sing them with more gusto?

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Selective hearing I would suggest. For example in last year's final if anyone says they could not hear our support singing Fenlon's name they are lying.

David: Are GSTQ and RB sung at all matches? Or just if certain oppostion merits the occasion? And why the need to sing 18C anthems when the vast majority of fans within English club football eschew such songs at games? You say this is part of your identity. Is this rather exclusive to what is a large part of Belfast's population?

David, one of your fans gave the game away big time after $hels match in Windsor. He said that GSTQ and RB should be sung louder for teams like Shelbourne and City as they "don't like hearing it" GSTQ and RB are not sung to promote your own culture but to spit on the other communities identities and values.

Which would of course would explain why they were sung against Glentoran a few weeks ago. Regardless, imagine football supporters singing a song to wind up opposition supporters, the very thought of it, could be the end of the game as we know it. :rolleyes: As long as there is nothing offensive to other peoples race or religion then it is fair enough. There is enough political correctness without it taking over football.

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Originally Posted by David

There is enough political correctness without it taking over football.

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Such as?

Btw David, it's not a case of selective hearing.

Let's look at the song for a second

God save the Queen
It's a Fascist Regime
It made you a moron
A potential H -Bomb

God Save the Queen
She ain't no human being
There is no future
in England's dreaming

( Lydon/ Matlock/Cook/Jones)(c) Warner Brothers Music 1977

I don't see how any Irish person could have a problem with that song :D

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

Such as?

Btw David, it's not a case of selective hearing.

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Many many examples of PC in the world, such as parts of England not being able to use the word Christmas. Football is essentially a working class game and rival fans wind each other up, it is all part of the game and as long as there is nothing offensive it is one of the things that makes our game so great. Sure let's all applaud our opponents goal and say "jolly well played there old chap".

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Originally Posted by Dr.Nightdub

National anthems should only be played at international matches.

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Spot on Dr.Nightdub. You hit the nail on the head.

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Originally Posted by David

Many many examples of PC in the world, such as parts of England not being able to use the word Christmas. Football is essentially a working class game and rival fans wind each other up, it is all part of the game and as long as there is nothing offensive it is one of the things that makes our game so great. Sure let's all applaud our opponents goal and say "jolly well played there old chap".

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Care to name these places in England where you aren't able to use the word Christmas ? :confused: I can picture the word Police prowling the streets of Bradford, Blackburn and Sothall in search of those that dareth utter the forbidden 'c' word..... :rolleyes:

Let's stop kidding ourselves David. Singing God save the Queen, Rule Britannia and The Sash (you left that one out) at games involving fans from a primarily catholic/nationalist community is more than just casually singing songs. It's done to be tribal, offensive and inflammatory. There's 'winding fans up', and there's winding fans up. Arsenal fans singing songs abour Man U fans being dole scrounging northern monkeys is winding them up. Arsenl fans singing songs about Munich isn't. As for singing the 'party tunes' at Belfast derbys : as is often commented on Irish League Forums, the singing of such songs at Blues-Glens games is part of a 'who can out-prod the other' game that is often played-out between both sets of fans.

So let's stop the whol innocent, butter wouldn't melt in yer mouth, 'but they're only wee songs' act. You know damn right what the issue is with them, but you refuse to accept the opposing view. If Linfield fans are so insecure in their own cultural identity that they have to drape themselves in it 24/7 then that says a lot for the psyche of your support. 99.9% of supporters of other clubs around the world don't feel a god-given right, nay necessity, to flaunt their identity in such a painful faux-pride fashion.

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Originally Posted by Paddyfield

Spot on Dr.Nightdub. You hit the nail on the head.

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Very true. I would hate to see the national anthem played at IL matches. I am no fan of God save the Queen and would prefer to see NI with their own anthem. When this happens and I can feel proud to hear a specific Northern Irish anthem , I think it would degrade it to hear it played everywhere and at everything.
The more you see or or hear something the less it means IMHO.

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Originally Posted by David

It seems like some have the attitude that it is only sectarian when Linfield are doing it.

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name one club south of yours that has your previous in this regard? or north, east or west?

i dont recall any southern club ever having a no-protestant rule. i have never heard amhrain na bfiann from any LOI fans. even rebel songs are a dying art.

the songs itself are not the problem. the fact is a group of supporters with a strong tradition of racism and bigotry that it claims to be losing sing them with a gusto, especially vocally in the earshot of taigs.

i personally dont have a problem with you lot being militantly british (in fact i cant wait for the day Rovers v Linfield becomes essentially the Irish old firm). it says so on the tin so to speak, but fúck off denying what you are. sing your songs if you want, but sont patronise us by pretending its all an innocent wee tune or two.

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Originally Posted by Dassa

Very true. I would hate to see the national anthem played at IL matches. I am no fan of God save the Queen and would prefer to see NI with their own anthem. When this happens and I can feel proud to hear a specific Northern Irish anthem , I think it would degrade it to hear it played everywhere and at everything.
The more you see or or hear something the less it means IMHO.

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I remember a rousing song used to boost tourism in the Wee North a decade or so ago " Come On Northern Ireland Come On " . Could be expanded into a National anthem, rousing tune too !

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Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

name one club south of yours that has your previous in this regard? or north, east or west?

i dont recall any southern club ever having a no-protestant rule. i have never heard amhrain na bfiann from any LOI fans. even rebel songs are a dying art.

the songs itself are not the problem. the fact is a group of supporters with a strong tradition of racism and bigotry that it claims to be losing sing them with a gusto, especially vocally in the earshot of taigs.

i personally dont have a problem with you lot being militantly british (in fact i cant wait for the day Rovers v Linfield becomes essentially the Irish old firm). it says so on the tin so to speak, but fúck off denying what you are. sing your songs if you want, but sont patronise us by pretending its all an innocent wee tune or two.

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So many holes in that statement. By the way I can totally accept that Linfield have long had a problem with sectarianism in our support and this is something that is being dealt with but to say that we have a strong tradition of racism is absolute nonsense. As for a no Catholic rule, I have not got any idea what you are on about, such a rule has never existed at Linfield FC and indeed Catholics have played for the club throughout our illustrious history. There was admittedly a period during the troubles up here that we did not have Catholics but that was as much down to their understandable reluctance to play for us than anything else. This reluctance was proved to be justified as the first Roman Catholic to sign for us after the period when there was none was beaten up by people in his own community. Indeed I could name you numerous Catholic players who have had problems in their own communities simply because they signed for Linfield.

I repeat that our supporters sing these songs at every game and not just those against teams that are perceived as Catholic. Who do people think they are telling us what we can and cannot sing. As I have said many times on this thread if a song is sectarian then I will be the first to complain about it but these songs are clearly not (and I include the Sash in that). If others choose not to sing patriotic songs then that is their choice but equally Linfield supporters should be afforded the same choice. As previously said, my personal preference would be for people to sing Linfield songs at Linfield games but ultimately we do not live in a dictatorship and may I suggest that if anyone gets their knickers in a twist over Linfield supporters singing Rule Britannia then it is they who have the problem and not Linfield supporters.

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Originally Posted by David

I repeat that our supporters sing these songs at every game and not just those against teams that are perceived as Catholic. Who do people think they are telling us what we can and cannot sing. As I have said many times on this thread if a song is sectarian then I will be the first to complain about it but these songs are clearly not (and I include the Sash in that). If others choose not to sing patriotic songs then that is their choice but equally Linfield supporters should be afforded the same choice. As previously said, my personal preference would be for people to sing Linfield songs at Linfield games but ultimately we do not live in a dictatorship and may I suggest that if anyone gets their knickers in a twist over Linfield supporters singing Rule Britannia then it is they who have the problem and not Linfield supporters.

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This is why sectarianism will not be eliminated from Windsor. You're an apologist David. Your statement "I'd rather sing Linfield songs" is an admission that you really know that they don't belong there and you'd rather they weren't. It's like someone who has a family member or friend who does something wrong and you know it but you won't come out and admit it. But the sectarianism won't be eliminated until people like yourselves stand up and demand and force a footballing repertoire. That's easier said that done, I know. Rome wasn't built in a day and it's taking a lot and long time to root sectarianism out of Scottish football grounds. That doesn't mean they can rest on their laurels and pat each other on the back because they're doing it. There's a lot more to do.