Irish rugby

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Originally Posted by crc

Well, you seem reasonable enough about the issue. However, for me I'd like the symbols to represent all of Ireland. The tricolour ostensibly does that (by uniting Orange and Green), but in actual fact it doesn't really represent the Orange because they themselves say that it doesn't. Its an unfortunate fact of history, but I don't think we can delude ourselves into thinking that it does represent everyone in Ireland.

In the nineteenth century, the tricolour had a great symbolism. It was created with the very aim of trying to include both major traditions (why else would it have had orange in it?). But because it became associated with republicanism and the violence that occurred in 1916-23, and 1969-98, it doesn't hold any meaning for Unionists. It could have been blue, white and red, had a crown and an orange sash on it for all they care - as soon as it became associated with forces that were openly hostile and violent to them, it lost most of the original meaning it had. After all, the Union Jack has a whole portion devoted to Ireland (the St. Patrick's saltire), but that doesn't convince me that the Brits treasure the Irish because of it.

I like the tricolour and the anthem, but I would be more proud of symbols that attracted the allegiance of everybody. There is almost nothing I can think of that would make me happier than a united Ireland, but I know there isn't even the remotest chance of it happening if the orange side don't also feel comfortable within it. I like the fact that they're (mostly) comfortable with the Irish rugby team, in the same way that I'm happy to support the Lions. Its a quid-pro quo; its all about parity of esteem.

[Incidentally, I'd love to see an all-Ireland team compete in the Commonwealth games.]

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There used to be a flag for Ireland which was Blue with a Harp on it.
That would cover it. After all Blue is represented on the shirts of the Northern Ireland international soccer team,( it's also on the Butcher's Apron) and the Harp has long been a symbol of Ireland before partition and before the reformation for that matter. As regards the Anthem. Ireland's Call sucks it's a bad song. The sentiments of the 4 provinces are good but the melody is poor . Not even one of Phil Coulter's better one's. "Shang a Lang "is better than it but not suitable for a national anthem.

"There is an Isle" is a nice solution, especially the call and response nature of the song. It's apolitical and emphasizes that whatever the political, ethnic and monetary divides it is still a singular piece of island! As regards your final point, in order for All-Ireland to compete in the Commonwealth Games, the Republic of Ireland would need to rejoin the Commonwealth and I think Britain will join the Euro before that happens!

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Originally Posted by crc

And that, my friend, is one of the worst posts I've read on foot.ie in quite a while!

It's not about pure numbers, either in NI or Ireland as a whole, its about parity of esteem between both (and all) traditions. You claim to be a nationalist, yet you seem to be happiest excluding people from the north-east of your nation in its affairs (sporting or otherwise).
You claim not to be sectarian, yet you are exactly that by taking an extremely mono-ethnic view of who should be included - that's as bad (and a lot more short-sighted) than the Unionsist who excluded Catholics from an equal part in the Northern Ireland between 1921 and 1972.
We should be reaching out to Unionists in order to make them feel at ease with us. We shouldn't patronise them or tell them that their traditions were invalid (would / do you accept it if they do the same to you?).

We should articulate a vision that lets them know that the (united) Ireland of the future will treasure their culture and traditions (including the right to be British and have political ties with England, Scotland and Wales), and that they will have a valuable and valued part to play in the Ireland that we all construct.

And before you call me a Unionist appologist, or a west-Brit, I can assure you that I am 100% an Irish Nationalist. Its just that I can see that we will never have a united Ireland (or even an Ireland simply at peace with itself) if we don't recognise the validity af all major traditions on this island. Its not about cultural assimilation, but respect. If there ever is a united Ireland, it will look more like the GFA North than the present day ROI. You wouldn't accept it if your traditions were rejected (as was the case for northern Catholics), so why would you expect it of Unionists?

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Sorry crc, about my response coming a bit late, but I just wanted to tell you that you bring it to the point. Everybody should feel at ease, respected and safe in a United Ireland (regardless of race, religion, ...) as people do for instance in Germany where half of the population are Roman Catholics and the other half Lutherans. I just wanted to mention this example without making to much comparisons despite that there are some parallels to be drawn between both countries.
Sports should reflect all these values!

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Originally Posted by TheJamaicanP.M.

I appreciate your opinions and your open-mindedness on this issue but that's just the way I feel. It just feels natural for me that I would prefer to see Leinster and Munster players on the team. I feel a closer connection to those players. I don't feel that way when I see Ulster players who have obviously don't sing my national anthem.
Despite what you think I'm not sectarian. Indeed, I'd be someone who supports Unionists' rights to their own culture and beliefs. However, I don't want those cultures to compromise my own as would happen if we got rid of the tricolour and national anthem. I think we've compromised enough by playing Ireland's Call.

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can't really see your point about just munster and leinster. to be honest i think your just trying to stir the $hit. as someone who would love to see a 32 county republic the idea of integrating more northern unionists into mainstream irish society the better. sooner or later i believe i will get my wish but so as not to reignite the "troubles" with the roles reversed as unionists the minority in a nationalist country. just hope the same injustices that happened to nationalists don't happen to unionists.
personally i would love to see big ian in dail eireann

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Originally Posted by $Leon$

can't really see your point about just munster and leinster. to be honest i think your just trying to stir the $hit. as someone who would love to see a 32 county republic the idea of integrating more northern unionists into mainstream irish society the better.

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Obviously because my view doesn't correspond with your's means that I am stirring the sh!t? If you had read my post correctly, you would see that I said that I was fully behind the rights of Unionists. However, I did state that I'd prefer Leinster and Munster players in the Ireland team as I feel more closely associated with them, in a similar way as people prefer to see a player from their own county.

I've been across the border in Northern Ireland twice in my life. It feels like a different country to me. To be honest, I have closer connections with England. You might like the idea of a 32 county Republic but I'm sure I'm still entitled to prefer the 26 county alternative.

You mentioned the idea of integrating Unionists into your new 32 county ideal. You talk about the need to treat them equally, unlike the way Nationists were treated in the North. Isn't this an ironic view for you to take all of a sudden? You were the person who stated earlier in this thread that the tricolour represents Unionists as well as Nationists (an opinion I agree with it) and that there is no need for a new flag to represent the full island. Will this be part of your ideology for a new 32 county republic? Isn't that the same as what Nationalists had to endure in the North with the Union Jack? Somehow I can't imagine Ian or his son for that matter, taking their seats in your Dail!

$Leon$, what you might view as politically correct or incorrect may not be the case with others.

I don't care what creed a player is when they play for Ireland. However, as stated already, I prefer players from Munster, Leinster and Connaught. While my opinion might not appeal to you or others on this forum, I have just as much a right to it.

FWIW the Union Jack also represents Ireland as it contains the Cross of St. Patrick.

Neither the UJ nor the tricolour can be considered to be neutral symbols.

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Originally Posted by TheJamaicanP.M.

I'd prefer Leinster and Munster players in the Ireland team.

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And I'd prefer a Munster 15, but politics dictates we have to pick a few Leinster lads to keep everyone happy :D

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Originally Posted by TheJamaicanP.M.

I've been across the border in Northern Ireland twice in my life. It feels like a different country to me. To be honest, I have closer connections with England. You might like the idea of a 32 county Republic but I'm sure I'm still entitled to prefer the 26 county alternative.

You mentioned the idea of integrating Unionists into your new 32 county ideal. You talk about the need to treat them equally, unlike the way Nationists were treated in the North. .

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The first part I actually agree with. I myself have no interest in a UI, not much in NI remaining in the UK either but seem to be the only option available to keep NI in existance as a country. So will have to do. ROI to me when I travel to it doesnt feel like my country, but Ive nothing against it and respect it is NI closet neighbour. I have no problem with anyone down south not wanting a UI or those that do.


As for the second part of your comment surely two wrongs dont make a right. If a UI did happen (hopefully never in my opinion) why would it be right not to treat people not even born in the 60's/70's equally.

Dassa, you started this thread with the preference for one neutral flag and anthem.
I really do not see the what the validity of the comfort zone issue is with the 2 flags, one anthem and a call. (Apart from musical taste and suitability with the Call).
I certainly do not hear any mumblings about discomfort from Ulster rugby followers, except about Eddie (the usual), O'Gara (sh!te) and justifiably, the near famine of internat. rugby at Ravenhill.
The 6 county section of the 9 county province does not even have home rule. The political representatives have yet to even agree to sit down and talk about what to do. When they do maybe they can agree (after 50 years) on having an acceptable anthem and flag which represents the positive aspirations of the 6 county inhabitants, then we can have 2 bonafide anthems and 2 flags at new Landsdowne rd and the new Maze. Maybe in your mind you are not referring to a geographical area of the 6 counties.
If you are referring to due respect for one particular sentiment of the 6 county inhabitants then there is more than one colour existing there.
At present we have the tricolour and the 9 county Ulster flag (the flag of Ulster rugby), flying at Landsdowne rd. As far as I am aware, Ulster is a 9 county rugby province with teams from Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal participating in the Ulster leagues.
Irish rugby is just a remarkable sporting unity not a political, social and cultural marraige.

personally cant see why there is the need to fly the flag and play the anthem of 26 counties when the team represents 32. Not trying to get all political about it. Just think to fly IRFU flag would be alot more appropriate, And as for Ulster fans many I talk to arent happy with current situation they just dont think there is anything that can be done about it. People from NI shouldnt have to beg to feel included when the team is supposed to represent them. But as I mentioned before everyone is entitled to their opinion.

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Originally Posted by Dassa

People from NI shouldnt have to beg to feel included when the team is supposed to represent them

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Exactly - parity of esteem.

Dassa

So What about the Blue Flag with a Harp on it as a neutral flag then?

CTID. yeah I remember reading somewhere that all the original AI teams such as football used to use this blue and harp idea for their skips so sounds ok to me in terms of a flag.

Dassa, if you come on and say one neutral anthem and one neutral flag, one that can be played in all grounds home and away, games in the North and the South, that its more practical. I'd say fine. Its a thought. But if your reason is to say that its apprehension about coming down to Landsdowne rd (the only place where AnF is played), ignoring the flying of the flag of Ulster and the intention behind Ireland's call, I'd say that you are taking the offense bit too far.
I don't know the story behind it but as it stands now the flag of Ulster is the flag of Ulster rugby. Ulster rugby is " inclusive" of of all people from all backgrounds in all the Ulster 9 counties. I take it that you consider that the flying of that flag does not give due recognition to Ulster rugby followers. Then imo you are not in tune with the bulk of Ulster Rugby followers.
Just because the red hand had been hijacked by some unsavoury types doesn't make it sectarian. That is also the context of the tricolour. Its about context.

I do want 1 neutral flag 1 neutral anthem. The only reason I said both was because someone said that the tricolour had to fly and the soldier song would need to be played as the games in the ROI. If this is the case then the other country who are in the team( NI) must be represented by their flag. For me its either 2 national flags or 4 provinces flags to have the 26 county flag(national) and then the 9 county flag of ulster(province) basically says your country isnt recognised. the people who really benifit or the three counties of Ulster in ROI they get double recognition lucky them:D . We clearly have differance in opinions on this issue and what all inclusive in a one off of 2 countries playing as one is.

I do recognise the yellow ulster flag as my provences flag, but this is a national game and if people from munster,Leinster,connaght and 3 counties of Ulster can look up at the flag pole and see their national flag at a home game whats so bad about me asking for the same.
I know that the flying of the NI flag at Landsowne will never happen and thats why I believe that a neutral is the only way forward.

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Originally Posted by Dassa

CTID. yeah I remember reading somewhere that all the original AI teams such as football used to use this blue and harp idea for their skips so sounds ok to me in terms of a flag.

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Well that's the flag sorted now for the anthem ! :)

If only everything was that easy:) ;)

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Originally Posted by Dassa

. If this is the case then the other country who are in the team( NI) must be represented by their flag. ... basically says your country isnt recognised.... . We clearly have differance in opinions on this issue and what all inclusive in a one off of 2 countries playing as one is..

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You need to have a national debt before you can be called a country.

The NI flag (the ulster banner) has been officially decommissioned since 1972 according to thishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Northern_Ireland

Ill leave my opinion at what Ive said and thank you for your opinions. Glad to see some understand were Im coming from.

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Originally Posted by geysir

The NI flag (the ulster banner) has been officially decommissioned since 1972 according to thishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Northern_Ireland

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That is absolutely correct, but in its place the national flag of NI is technically the Union Jack (notwithstanding the fact that its the flag of the larger entity, the UK)

This still doesn't resolve the issue of flag non-representation for NI Unionists. The fact remains that they NEVER get to see their national flag flown at games - the last game at Ravenhill was in 1953 IIRC!

FWIW, the tricolour is not flown because the Irish rugby team is playing, but because the game is being played in the Republic of Ireland. At away games the tricolour is not flown. If not for any other reason, I think this is why we should have an agreed flag and anthem that can be flown / played at all games (home and away).

On that note, and given the advanced hour, I shall leave it there. I can't wait for the final 6 Nations game tomorrow (or later today, even). I have a feeling we can do well, but I also think its a very bad thing to ever expect to do well against England, at Twickenham!!

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Originally Posted by Dassa

Personally i think the way forward would be to have a white flag with a shamrock officially flown and only Irelands call played. Interested to hear what people down south feel about the potential for something like this to happen in future. Would personally be a very good step in right direction and make matches for people like myself feel like they are representing me.

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See where your coming from alright but the team is known as "Ireland" so of course the tri-colour should stay and the national anthem should be ours too.