Who should get the Louth franchise?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sullanefc

Is it just me or does it seem like UCD fans are really worried about this and are trying to "scare" other fans into their viewpoint.

Just because UCD are a club with no fans and no future, doesn't mean that both Drogheda AND Dundalk can't BOTH compete in this new "Super League" or whatever you want to call it. BOTH Drogs AND Dundalk have what only UCD and Dublin City can only dream about - more than 10 fans.

UCD propaganda - i've seen it all now :rolleyes:

---

Good Christ - here's a proposition which will kill off half the teams in the league and you're complaining about UCD propoganda?! Here's a proposal to hand the entire league - and, rivalries aside, we all follow with equal passion and, outside of pub talk or forum flaming, acknowledge that there is a bond between every eL club and their fans - and all you can do is make petty talk about clubs having ten fans?!

First off, it doesn't matter a sh!te what your opinion is - you're not being asked to vote. I've no intention of propogandising you or anyone else. I have every intention of pointing out how serious this is for the clubs - and Breifne has mentioned more than us who are in trouble if this goes ahead - who will get screwed over by their own organisation. An arbitrarily selected league under arbitrary criteria with promotion subject to the same arbitrary criteria means a closed shop Premier, which means the First Division clubs all die. The league is to be handed over to one of the most corrupt and incompetent organisations in its entirety and we're supposed to be dancing in the streets rejoicing in Delaney our saviour?! The league is supposed to get better by relegating teams who finish mid-table and promoting teams who, despite vague "potential" can't get their act together enough to get promoted? The league is supposed to get better by relegating good teams and promoting worse ones?!

Second off, there are plenty of people up in arms over this - Pat's fans, Longford fans, Bohs fans to names fans of but three clubs who should be OK under this new system.

Third off, Genesis explicitly mentions picking clubs based on "population centres". If you want to stick your head in the sand and say the FAI will definitely not go down that road, fair enough. But in that case, it's you who are the idiot, not us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A face

Hook ..... line ...... sinker !! ;) :cool:

Cosmo .... only feicin' about fella !!

---

Never hear of similes? :o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Good Christ - here's a proposition which will kill off half the teams in the league and you're complaining about UCD propoganda?! Here's a proposal to hand the entire league - and, rivalries aside, we all follow with equal passion and, outside of pub talk or forum flaming, acknowledge that there is a bond between every eL club and their fans - and all you can do is make petty talk about clubs having ten fans?!

First off, it doesn't matter a sh!te what your opinion is - you're not being asked to vote. I've no intention of propogandising you or anyone else. I have every intention of pointing out how serious this is for the clubs - and Breifne has mentioned more than us who are in trouble if this goes ahead - who will get screwed over by their own organisation. An arbitrarily selected league under arbitrary criteria with promotion subject to the same arbitrary criteria means a closed shop Premier, which means the First Division clubs all die. The league is to be handed over to one of the most corrupt and incompetent organisations in its entirety and we're supposed to be dancing in the streets rejoicing in Delaney our saviour?! The league is supposed to get better by relegating teams who finish mid-table and promoting teams who, despite vague "potential" can't get their act together enough to get promoted? The league is supposed to get better by relegating good teams and promoting worse ones?!

Second off, there are plenty of people up in arms over this - Pat's fans, Longford fans, Bohs fans to names fans of but three clubs who should be OK under this new system.

Third off, Genesis explicitly mentions picking clubs based on "population centres". If you want to stick your head in the sand and say the FAI will definitely not go down that road, fair enough. But in that case, it's you who are the idiot, not us.

---

I have to agree with this ... we all seem to be taking this very lightly being honest.

Another point aswell, have many fans (barr diehards) want to look at a manufactured, artificial league which aestheticly looks great but is no where near a fair competition, without clubs having to achieve position on merit.

It has to be said .... if the clubs that are in the population centres aren't able to progress and achieve both on and off the pitch then who is to say they'll actually be able to stay up in the golden circle. It takes alot of hard work to get into and stay in top flight, if you dont have the work done, then you have less of a chance of staying there.

If the FAI actually achieve their 'masterplan', who is to say it wont be fudged in three years with team going straight back down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by forza

Dundalk just back from the hospital there very efficent so they go my vote :D

---

Begs the question how many hospitals did you pass coming from Inchicore! Apparently the Louth County is one of the most efficient in the country

If the FAI want to achieve their objective of having 50,000 people watching top class football in a top class arena wih top class facilities, then why not merge the big 4 Dublin Clubs and have St Shelhemians Rovers play in the English Premier League based int he new Lansdowne Road?

Meanwhile, the IFA could follow suit with Glenfieldville attracting huge crowds to their Coca Cola Championshiop games at George Best Park (aka the Maze).
And I'm sure Cork Ramblers and Derrystute would get good crowds at their League 1 and 2 games. ;)

Jebus lad's I'm a big advocate of anything that can improve our league
but with all this talk of franchised(or should that be disenfranchised)football
I'm really starting to think if it ain't broke don't fix it surely what we have now ie. average quality football with disproportionately p!ss poor attendances is better than basically homicide of maybe 30% of the clubs in this country. I think it's time we got off our ar$e$ and did something to halt this before it gets out of control
Anyone fancy a campaign of civil disobediance etc ?

Who should get the Louth franchise?

Cork City.

Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neish

Who should get the Louth franchise?

Cork City.

Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.:rolleyes:

---

You can call the question stupid if you like but if these proposals go through, there's going to be someone in merrion square deciding this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Good Christ - here's a proposition which will kill off half the teams in the league and you're complaining about UCD propoganda?! Here's a proposal to hand the entire league - and, rivalries aside, we all follow with equal passion and, outside of pub talk or forum flaming, acknowledge that there is a bond between every eL club and their fans - and all you can do is make petty talk about clubs having ten fans?!

First off, it doesn't matter a sh!te what your opinion is - you're not being asked to vote. I've no intention of propogandising you or anyone else. I have every intention of pointing out how serious this is for the clubs - and Breifne has mentioned more than us who are in trouble if this goes ahead - who will get screwed over by their own organisation. An arbitrarily selected league under arbitrary criteria with promotion subject to the same arbitrary criteria means a closed shop Premier, which means the First Division clubs all die. The league is to be handed over to one of the most corrupt and incompetent organisations in its entirety and we're supposed to be dancing in the streets rejoicing in Delaney our saviour?! The league is supposed to get better by relegating teams who finish mid-table and promoting teams who, despite vague "potential" can't get their act together enough to get promoted? The league is supposed to get better by relegating good teams and promoting worse ones?!

Second off, there are plenty of people up in arms over this - Pat's fans, Longford fans, Bohs fans to names fans of but three clubs who should be OK under this new system.

Third off, Genesis explicitly mentions picking clubs based on "population centres". If you want to stick your head in the sand and say the FAI will definitely not go down that road, fair enough. But in that case, it's you who are the idiot, not us.

---

Plenty of other closed shop competitions work.

Intercounty Football in GAA
&
Celtic League - Rugby

This league needs a drastic change and setting up a league with 'proper' clubs sounds good to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sullanefc

Plenty of other closed shop competitions work.

Intercounty Football in GAA
&
Celtic League - Rugby

This league needs a drastic change and setting up a league with 'proper' clubs sounds good to me.

---

Actually, it turns out the Celtic League isn't working!

They're on about axeing another Welsh region

What's to say that we won't end up with a Connaught, Leinster, Ulster and Cork F.C. if the league isn't good enough after these first few changes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Student Mullet

You can call the question stupid if you like but if these proposals go through, there's going to be someone in merrion square deciding this.

---

but is there? are you sure you arent adding 2+2 and getting 5?

find me the exact quote/phrase or whatever that says there will be geographical franchising on county lines. otherwise you are scaremongering.

cant help but get the feeling the NLSA are contriving a row to get noticed when none necessarily exists

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

but is there? are you sure you arent adding 2+2 and getting 5?

find me the exact quote/phrase or whatever that says there will be geographical franchising on county lines. otherwise you are scaremongering.

cant help but get the feeling the NLSA are contriving a row to get noticed when none necessarily exists

---

The scaremongering is quite sad IMO.

What are the NLSA doing? Are they organising a protest or something. Who is in the NLSA?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sullanefc

The scaremongering is quite sad IMO.

What are the NLSA doing? Are they organising a protest or something. Who is in the NLSA?

---

They're certainly working on it, I know that for a fact.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Poor Student

They're certainly working on it, I know that for a fact.

---

what, scaremongering or a protest?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by roverstillidie

Can't help but get the feeling the NLSA are contriving a row to get noticed when none necessarily exists

---

I think that's the first mention of the NLSA on this thread?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sullanefc

What are the NLSA doing? Who is in the NLSA?

---

The NLSA gave a submission to the original Genesis Report. There was no follow up consultation from Genesis on this. The NLSA subsequently requested a meeting and/or an open forum with Genesis as part of the second consultation mentioned in their report. Genesis said there was no such consultation and that the matter was entirely with the FAI. They didn't answer any of the NLSA's other correspondence, as far as I know.

The NLSA contacted the FAI three times and the league once. No reply was received until this week, when it was too late (on the FAI and eL's behalf) to arrange a meeting. Bit of a coincidence, you might say.

As reported in the Star on Friday, the NLSA wrote a letter to each club pointing out the huge flaws - factual errors, selective facts, omissions of important items which aren't being done by the powers that be (e.g. UEFA Licencing), despite the report referring to them in the Genesis Report on which this entire proposal is based and urging that the proposal be rejected. One club (not UCD or Dublin City, incidentally; I don't see the need to name them though), called it an "excellent document" which raised many important questions and said it reflected very well on the group. It is therefore worth noting that no supporter consultation whatsoever was considered necessary for such an important proposal, even though one would consider supporters to be the single-most important "stakeholder" (as the Genesis Report put it) in the game. Quite simply, without supporters, there would be no league.

As the purpose of the NLSA is to represent fans of all 22 eircom League clubs, it can only take the view that any system which relegates or promotes clubs on any basis other than fair on-the-pitch means is inherently wrong and against the ethos of fair sport. It acknowledges that provisions can be made for UEFA Licencing, but this obviously doesn't apply in this case.

As for who are the NLSA - it is the group set up in June 2005 when the eircom League Supporters' Club ticket allocation was cut by 70% at short notice by the FAI. This was rectified, and it was agreed by the FAI that the group should become the main contact for the eL North Terrace tickets (primarily for the convenience of dealing with one group rather than 22). The group was given a section in the Ireland match programme, the first appearing in (I think) the Switzerland programme. The FAI suggested that we liaise through regular with the league to provide an outlet for supporters' views. The lack of these meetings has been discussed above. At this initial ticket stage, people from most clubs were involved - Athlone, Bohs, Cork, Derry, Drogheda, Dublin City, Harps, Galway, Longford, Pat's, UCD, Kildare, Dublin City, Shamrock Rovers, Limerick (primarily the people who had been acting as the contacts between the FAI and their club's Supporters' Club in the ticket dealings). The reason this doesn't cover the full spectrum of the league is that not all clubs were involved in the ticket arrangement. The NLSA have since then at least contacted people from other clubs with a view to getting them on board.

For further information, you can visit the (still embryonic) NLSA website (we've had huge problems with the server...). The NLSA intends to strengthen its links with the various clubs and their supporters once the new (and pointless) season starts up. For obvious reasons, it's hard to get much speed up during the close-season.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

find me the exact quote/phrase or whatever that says there will be geographical franchising on county lines. otherwise you are scaremongering.

---

A line from the Genesis Report (on which this is all being based) -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Genesis Report

Ideally, the ten clubs in the National League will be spread across the major population centres throughout the country.

---

Do you both want to take back the accusation of scaremongering? Or is humble pie not your taste?

Here's a line from Aertel's report on the vote -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aertel

It is the first step towards a full merger between the league and the FAI, following proposals by the FAI to operate a financially viable league in 2007, when clubs will be placed in divisions which reflect this season's league placing, facilities and each club's marketability.

---

And a line from the Irish Independent, quoted here -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Indo

The rest is likely to centre around facilities, business plans, level of support and marketability.

---

And another line from the same article -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Indo

Can First Division clubs be promoted after 2007?
Yes. The First Division champions will be entitled to replace the bottom team in the Premier but only if they fulfil all the criteria needed to play in the top division. If they can't do that then the bottom team survives.

---

Facilities and marketability offer serious leeway for subjectivity, which means the FAI are free to pick who they want for the new league. Teams who are in the First Division by virtue of criteria can't almost by definition make the criteria if they get promoted. So (a) teams in the First Division will wither away and die and (b) we have a case where even promotion and relegation are at the whim of the FAI. Which is why so many are opposed to this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sullanefc

setting up a league with 'proper' clubs sounds good to me.

---

How do you define "proper clubs"? Are UCD, Dublin City, Kilkenny, Athlone, Monaghan, Kildare, etc. "proper clubs" with their small fan bases? Are Galway, Dundalk or Limerick "proper clubs" because they have some vague trappings of potential and yet can't oust the likes of UCD or Dublin City from the Premier? Would you wather have UCD - small fanbase, but they can play decent football and do well for themselves - or Galway - big potential apparently, yet they get under 200 for some games and ahve shown a marked inability to capitalise on their potential.

The "proper" clubs for the Premier - and the clubs which should be there to ensure the strongest League of Ireland - are the ones who are being run the best with the resources they have to enable them to stay in the Premier.

Promoting weaker teams and relegating stronger teams can only make the league weaker. That's fairly clear. If the "proper clubs" (which we shall for the moment define as ones who are in an area with lots of people) can't get into the Premier, the onus is on them to get into the Premier. The FAI can't simply move clubs around in divisions at its whim. That it fundamentally against the notion of fair sport.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

A line from the Genesis Report (on which this is all being based) -
Originally Posted by Genesis Report
Ideally, the ten clubs in the National League will be spread across the major population centres throughout the country.
Do you both want to take back the accusation of scaremongering? Or is humble pie not your taste?

Here's a line from Aertel's report on the vote -


.

---

that does not equate to one of the louth clubs, or anyone, not getting to play in the FAI league. not by a long shot.
you are basing this whole ****storm of indignation on aertel and the indo? seriously?
now i know you are being disengenious on this issue.

I think the Louth example was used to show just how silly selecting clubs "based on population centres" is. However, it is likely there won't be room for both. Drogheda and Dundalk together does not represent "population centres throughout the country". The chances are one will have to make way. Which?

You can apply the same logic to Harps and Derry, to Galway and Sligo, to Longford and Athlone...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by roverstillidie

you are basing this whole ****storm of indignation on aertel and the indo? seriously?

---

Eh no - you say this when I quote an extract from the Genesis Report?! It's on Aertel and the Indo - sure it must be nonsense then. Now I know what to make of your opinions anyway.

PS, you are parading this, the louth thing being a prime example, on the basis of one phrase in genesis, as fact.
its not. "population centres throughout the country" = removing dorgs, harps, longford? you are leaping to silly conclusions.
no-where does it say clubs will be expelled from the league on geography.

Delaney leaked certain nonsense to the press so useful idiots like you would jump to conclusions, and when the EL clubs talk him out of it, we will think we have won something while he gets what he really wants, groundsharing.

again, put up quotes from actual FAI documents to back up ypur wild theories (which you may well be able to do on monday) or shut up.

On what basis is Genesis not an FAI document? Its front page carries the FAI logo and the heading "Football Association of Ireland".

On what basis is it not fact? Genesis also recommends ground-sharing - that appears to be fact (or it's being discussed at least). Genesis recommends merging the league and the FAI - that's fact. Genesis recommends "re-launching" the league - that's fact. Are you happy to dismiss this as fiction because it doesn't suit you to consider it fact?

How many phrases would you like Genesis to express what is a very simple notion in? Do you expect them to re-iterate it over and over?

Me a "useful idiot" as far as Delaney is concerned? Surely "useful" to Delaney would mean agreeing with his proposal, not disgreeing with is? Surely "useful idiots" from the point of view of distracting Delaney would be club committee members who were actually voting?

None of your posts are making any sense.