Love Ulster March

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

LR - there's more than a gem of an idea in there. It is nigh-on impossible to cause public disorder whilst listening to Samba music - it's just far too uplifting and intoxicating ! :D

On a more serious note - I've said on this site before that I'd like to see the 12th July celebrated formally in the Republic, including with a Bank Holiday. The Battle of the Boyne was a major event in Irish, European and world history. Think about it - this insignificant little spit of earth on the fringe of the fringe of Europe was the site for one of the major turning points in World History (I say 'world', because to all exdtents and purposes Europe was 'the world' in those days). It'd be like if the atom had first been split in Mohill in Leitrim ! If the 12th hadn't been hi-jacked for petty sectarianism, we'd be lauding it to the hill tops by now !

So I'd like to see it celebrated and commemorated properly and respectfully. That wouldn't mean leaving it to the run-of one-sided Rangers shirt-wearing, billy boys displaying naked sectarianism - but as an event of importance to and involvement of EVERYONE in the 'new' Ireland. And that would involve samba bands from Brazil, steel-bands from Trinidad, West African drum bands etc - ALL playing alongside the Lambeg, the flute, the Ulann pipes and the Bodhran.

It's time to reclaim the 12th of July for what it is - nothing more than an important historical event in the timeline of world history.

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Isn't there some class of a commemorate center being buit at the Boyne though Steve with the intention to do what you're suggesting??? Read something about that a while back.

I'm all in favour of that too. Take it away from the Mickey mousers on both sides.

I think we should put on a big welcome party for them give them cups of tea and scones and throw in a bit of irish music to show them we are not fenian animals , it would really wind them up. Imagine people clapping them down o' connell street with Cead Mile Failte to Baile Atha Cliath banners everywhere.

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Originally Posted by sirhamish

Isn't there some class of a commemorate center being buit at the Boyne though Steve with the intention to do what you're suggesting??? Read something about that a while back.

I'm all in favour of that too. Take it away from the Mickey mousers on both sides.

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The Boyne idea is for the proverbial 'Interpretative Centre' - a tourist landmark/permanent display.

I'm more keen to see the 12th continue with the positive parts of its heritage : the people's event, outdoor, mobile, live-music elements. Just with a 'modern Ireland' twist, and a focus on celebration and fun rather than on commemoration, triumphalism and sectarianism.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

The Boyne idea is for the proverbial 'Interpretative Centre' - a tourist landmark/permanent display.

I'm more keen to see the 12th continue with the positive parts of its heritage : the people's event, outdoor, mobile, live-music elements. Just with a 'modern Ireland' twist, and a focus on celebration and fun rather than on commemoration, triumphalism and sectarianism.

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Yeah, as I mentioned about the Aughrim one above, it opened/opens in fits and starts but they do/did try to get schoolkids in to renact the battle. Trouble is they only opened/open for a short spell every day which gave school teachers little time to get kids there. Idea was good though in its own way.
No one seems to know half the time if when/if it's open which is why I've different tenses.

Like the idea of outdoor music and celebration - betcha the establisment on both sides of the border will turn it into a boring series of speeches ala the Bodenstown thing. You'll have Bertie blathering about Ireland's rich tapestry of history and the contribution of all religions to our island while Paisley, Saunders and co will come down and blather their viewpoints all on separate days of course.
Same old, Same old.

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Originally Posted by TonyD

I suggest we even provide tea and biscuits for them. Anyone got any jaffa cakes ?:D

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I think they might need more than Jaffa Cakes to recover after the march/riot.

Why does the government permit this? It's only going to discommode Dubliners who want nothing to do with it, scare/intimidate tourists in the city centre who won't understand what it's all about, and almost certainly lead to widespread public disorder and property damage in the streets of our capital city. It will harm our image as a welcoming country abroad, and as this is not an ordinary march, it should be cancelled instantly, as it poses a very high risk to public safety in the area. :mad:

Of course, we should let those who wish to march, to turn up, do their business and go home, but I don't think it's going to be that straight-forward, and it looks certain to be the first major riot here since the RDS in '81. :(

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Not sure if thats a fair comparison though I mean the orange order didn't plant those bombs.

And as we have seen in the past our own government is more than capable of urinating on our history.

Don't get me wrong I'm starting to lean more and more towards outrage being honest (Must be my youthful teenage ways :) ) but Lionel Richie makes a pretty good argument.

BTW heard that Willie Frasier chap on Joe Duffy :o Pretty much came across as your average, foaming at the mouth, ignorant, loyalist stereotype

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Well someone of that ilk was responsible for the Dublin and Monaghan Bombings in 1974 for which not one of the perpetrators has ever spent a day's prison sentence !

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Originally Posted by mypost

Of course, we should let those who wish to march, to turn up, do their business and go home, but I don't think it's going to be that straight-forward, and it looks certain to be the first major riot here since the RDS in '81. :(

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I don't think they know what they're at - they seem a combination of backwoods rural unionists, rabid Shankill loyalists, and the odd neo-Nazi.

The Love Ulster website is as incoherent as is their forum:

http://www.loveulster.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2152

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Originally Posted by mypost

I think they might need more than Jaffa Cakes to recover after the march/riot.

Why does the government permit this? It's only going to discommode Dubliners who want nothing to do with it, scare/intimidate tourists in the city centre who won't understand what it's all about, and almost certainly lead to widespread public disorder and property damage in the streets of our capital city. It will harm our image as a welcoming country abroad, and as this is not an ordinary march, it should be cancelled instantly, as it poses a very high risk to public safety in the area. :mad:

Of course, we should let those who wish to march, to turn up, do their business and go home, but I don't think it's going to be that straight-forward, and it looks certain to be the first major riot here since the RDS in '81. :(

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Actually it won't. Us not being welcoming will harm our image as a welcoming country abroad - telling people from a patch of land we believe is a legitamate part of this state and to whom citizenship is offered that they are not welcome in ours and theoretically their capital city is double standards.

If the benefits of citizenship are only available to those loyal to the state then we have no business bitching about gerrymandering, discrimination, deprivation and the general "croppy lie down-isms" of days gone by up in the north.

Dubliners who don't want discommoding can ignore it. Many many more are arguably discommoded (what the fcuk does "discommoded" mean anyway?*) every time there's a match in lansdowne road or croker. Those intent on "widespread public order" are a matter for the Gardai to deal with -not an excuse to cancel anything that might offend someone.

*discommoded (dis-comm-o-ded): to have ones toilet removed or taken -with or without consent

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

Actually it won't. Us not being welcoming will harm our image as a welcoming country abroad - telling people from a patch of land we believe is a legitamate part of this state and to whom citizenship is offered that they are not welcome in ours and theoretically their capital city is double standards.

If the benefits of citizenship are only available to those loyal to the state then we have no business bitching about gerrymandering, discrimination, deprivation and the general "croppy lie down-isms" of days gone by up in the north.

Dubliners who don't want discommoding can ignore it. Many many more are arguably discommoded (what the fcuk does "discommoded" mean anyway?*) every time there's a match in lansdowne road or croker. Those intent on "widespread public order" are a matter for the Gardai to deal with -not an excuse to cancel anything that might offend someone.

*discommoded (dis-comm-o-ded): to have ones toilet removed or taken -with or without consent

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Well said. And to add that - on what basis/evidence are you suggesting that it would "terrify/intimidate" tourists ?? From experience, I can tell you that tourists who know nothing about the history and darker meaning to a lot of Orange parades think they're great ! And so would you if you turned up in a country and saw marching bands in quaint costumes with music.

Would it be any more terrifying than the average Saturday night in Temple Bar ? Or being tapped-up by a junkie ? Or females being verbally abused on the street by drunken Irishmen purely because they were English ? I know visitors to Dublin who have found all 3 of these experiences absolutely terrifying (particularly the last).

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Originally Posted by mypost

and almost certainly lead to widespread public disorder and property damage in the streets of our capital city.

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If so, those creating disorder or damaging property shoulod be dealt with as best the guarda's can. We do not give up the right to free speach that easily.

Should Shamrock Rovers games be banned because they can give rise to public disorder and property damage?

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

to add that - on what basis/evidence are you suggesting that it would "terrify/intimidate" tourists ?? From experience, I can tell you that tourists who know nothing about the history and darker meaning to a lot of Orange parades think they're great ! And so would you if you turned up in a country and saw marching bands in quaint costumes with music.

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Hmm...

When Orangemen march in their own country, they have to have their marches re-routed. They aren't allowed to march down Nationalist areas, or if they do, it needs to be heavily policed, and every year there are disturbances.

Why are Orangemen coming to march here?? Do they want to offer an olive branch to their neighbours?? Do they want to build bridges with us?? No, they want to come to our capital to protest about their negative image here, apparantly. They'll come to the GPO, wave their British flag, spew anti-Irish rhetoric, and they expect us to take it, do they?? They wouldn't stand for it on the Garvaghy Road, so what makes you think Dubliners will take it??

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Would it be any more terrifying than the average Saturday night in Temple Bar ? Or being tapped-up by a junkie ? Or females being verbally abused on the street by drunk(s)? I know visitors to Dublin who have found all 3 of these experiences absolutely terrifying (particularly the last).

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Such things happen in every city in the world, every weekend. Dublin is no different.

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Originally Posted by studentmullet

Should Shamrock Rovers games be banned because they can give rise to public disorder and property damage?

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Wtf is this about?? More anti-Rovers nonsense. Keep it to the football section.


I'm sure our Northern posters who put up with Orange marches every summer will correct me on the marches and their history. Don't bother, I'm not really interested, tbh. If I'm wrong, fair enough. What I want to know is why our government is giving this the green light, knowing how sensitive this issue is to Irish people, while being fully aware of the potential consequences? Why is this happening in O'Connell Street? Why will Dublin City Centre be sealed off on the day of the march to law-abiding Irish residents? Why will businesses have to close on the day to protect their property from the high risk of damage, because of this march going ahead? Why will they be forced to lose millions of Euro as a result of the Irish Government's ill-advised decisions??

That's what I want to know.

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Originally Posted by mypost

That's what I want to know.

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It's simple mypost. We live in a Republic which respects freedom to associate and freedom of speech. The guarda's will defend those freedom's with force if necessary.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Wtf is this about?? More anti-Rovers nonsense. Keep it to the football section.

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I am asking you, mypost, to put yourself into the shoes of an Orangeman. You say that they should have their event cancelled because people, who are not members of their organisation, might cause trouble. Ollie Byrne made a similar call to have Shamrock Rovers removed from the national league earlier this year. Can you see that neither call is correct?

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Originally Posted by Student Mullet

put yourself into the shoes of an Orangeman. You say that they should have their event cancelled because people, who are not members of their organisation, might cause trouble. Ollie Byrne made a similar call to have Shamrock Rovers removed from the national league earlier this year. Can you see that neither call is correct?

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The prospect of disorder, (however false the allegations made were), from a handful of Rovers fans is one thing, having a few thousand rioters smashing up Dublin City Centre, over a sensitive and contentious issue with hundreds of years of notorious history behind it, is quite another. The link you try to make between the two is a) uncomparable, b) irrelevant, and c) in the wrong place.

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We live in a Republic which respects freedom to associate and freedom of speech.

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That's all very well when there is a negligible risk of trouble. Freedom of speech is fine if expressed in a peaceful manner. It is not fine if the safety of the general public in the area is at serious risk, which it is here. Are injuries or worse, the price we have to pay for it??

If one man breaks the law it is illegal. If 100 men break the law it is still illegal.

The Orange Order, like Shamrock Rovers, is innocent of any potential trouble at the march. It is the job of the garda's to police the march and to arrest anyone causing trouble.

If 100 people causing trouble could end a fundamental freedom like you are suggesting, the IRA would have over-run this country a long time ago.

I wish people would get beyond the notion that the Orange Order is some kind of cultural organisation whose members simply wear silly hats and have an unfathomable love of flute band music. They are NOT just a northern version of Morris dancers.

The Orange Order is a supremacist institution - I use the word deliberately, just to highlight the parallels with US white supremacists. They have a long history of violent opposition to the very democratic rights that people here are quoting. One man one vote? Go ask Gerry Mander the answer to that one. Freedom of association? Catholics are expressly excluded from membership. (In fact the religious sectarianism alone cuts away any notion that they're merely commemorating the Battle of the Boyne and yer man on the white horse an' all. Who was King Billy's biggest backer? The Pope.)

Why do you think they make such a big deal about insisting on walking the bits of the "Queen's highway" that go through Catholic areas? Because it'd be no fun just marching around their own areas where there are no croppies to be intimdated.

The barely-acknowledged Orange marches in Donegal are meaningless and twee because the whole essential element of lording it over the Fenians is taken away when the Orangemen are in a minority. But this proposed march is not just a similar "cultural" stroll around Dublin. If it's let go ahead, it gives them more ammunition for demanding to be let march down Garvaghy Road, the Springfield Road, etc on the basis that if the good nationalist folk of Dublin can take it so why can't the good nationalist folk of those areas?

Having gone out with a woman from Garvaghy last year, I know that despite the peace process, the day to day situation for people in her community hasn't changed much - once marching season comes around, they're back under siege.

I'm not arguing that Orangemen shouldn't have freedom of association or a right to assembly. However, where and how they express those rights is the question. If they want to do so in such a way that is likely to cause offence (and giving offence is the raison d'etre of the Orange Order) to the extent that it leads to a violent response, then their rights have to be controlled. As I said let them march - but on the Shankill or somewhere, not on O'Connell Street.

I mentioned the supremacist parallels earlier. If an Irish version of the KKK wanted to express their attitude to immigration by burning a fiery cross outside the GPO, do people think they should be let?

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Originally Posted by Dr.Nightdub

As I said let them march - but on the Shankill or somewhere, not on O'Connell Street.

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I'm not sure how much control the Order would have over the "Love Ulster" movement.

The species of being that seems to appear at Loyalist gatherings doesn't seem to match up to the Orange qualifications:

"He should cultivate truth and justice, brotherly kindness and charity, devotion and piety, concord and unity, and obedience to the laws; his deportment should be gentle and compassionate, kind and courteous; he should seek the society of the virtuous, and avoid that of the evil; he should honour and diligently study the Holy Scriptures"

http://orangenet.org/londonderry/qua..._orangeman.htm

The Orange Order have at least some influence on this laughable organisation. An order which preaches Christian values yet allows Paramilitary groups to display their symbols on the love ulster marches as shown here Love Ulster

Where does the actions of these paramilitaires in money laundering, intimdation e.t.c. fit into the Christian values of the order.

This march should be allowed and the people of Dublin should be afforded the oppurtunity to rise above this attempt to taunt them into the sick hatred of the organisers. If any protest does occur it should be similar to those in Derry where protestors turn their backs en masse

Best thing is to applaud the march as it passes by. The orangemen wouldn't know whether to laugh or cry. I'm sure that the stalls for the march would be selling Fanta or Club orange, satsumas, carrots, clementines, oranges and Jaffa Cakes!!:D :D :D

I seriously think the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and trans-gender community in Dublin should hijack the event.

'Love Ulster' ? Rename it 'Ulster Pride', and all turn up in Orange frocks, dungarees and leather chaps.

It'd be hillarious - the dour Northerners would be sprinting for their buses back up the motorway before they even got started...... :D