Tookie Williams executed in California

Again, you're missing the point. Williams was clearly guilty. He had a full jury trial and over 20 years of appeals. The system isn't perfect but it's the best we have. If you're argument is that he should not be executed because the death penalty is morally wrong and can result in an irreversible mistake then that's fine. If, however, you are suggesting that Williams is innocent then your argument falters significantly. Williams had a full trial, full state court appeals and full federal court appeals. His case has been combed over in incredible detail. He's as guilty as anyone who as ever been found guilty. Moreover, the man did not reform. Even the Texas example your pointed out related to the defendant's IQ and not his guilt or innocence.

There are hundreds of thousands of trials in the US every year. For the most part (that is, a significantly high percentage) the trials are fair and impartial. There are always exceptions, however, but they tend to be so small as to be just that, exceptions. To be sure, when it comes to the death penalty there is no margin for error which is a very good reason to abolish the death penalty.

While you may not know that Williams is guilty a jury of his peers felt that he was. Five additional courts felt that he was. Far be it for me to question your grasp of jurisprudence but I think at some point we have to defer to the trier of fact who got to see all of the evidence presented at trial and appeal.

Lastly, please don't use bold when responding. It's poor 'net etiquette.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

Not only has he never admitted guilt in the murder – much less expressed any remorse

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I doubt anyone has ever expressed remorse for a murder they didn't
commit, however to do so would be an indication of insanity so they
would probably get off on the grounds of diminshed responsiibility.

Just for the record

Contrary to popular assumption, Stanley Tookie Williams, who was fatally injected Tuesday morning and pronounced dead at 12:35 a.m., was not the founder or even the co-founder of the Crips. The undisputed father of the notorious black street gang was one Raymond Washington, a fearless and mighty 5-foot-8 fireplug who loved to fight and loathed guns. He was killed at age 26 by a shotgun blast — allegedly by someone he knew — on the corner of 64th and San Pedro streets on August 9, 1979.

My own personal opinion is that Williams deserved the fate he met. As they say you reap what you sow and Williams was a murderer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tricky_colour

I doubt anyone has ever expressed remorse for a murder they didn't
commit, however to do so would be an indication of insanity so they
would probably get off on the grounds of diminshed responsiibility.

---

I think, however, it would have gone to his changed character and added further weight to his clemency appeal.

I've read one of his appeals and the evidence of his guilt is overwhelming. From ballistics to witnesses it's clear that he slaughtered (executed) all 4 of his victims.

I think the death penalty is morally wrong and incompatible with Western society. Tookie Williams was guility. Did he deserve to die? No, but that's based solely of the first sentence in this paragraph. He was guilty and he did not reform. Life in a small cell without parole should have been his fate.

Death penalty equals murder. You don't just plan someone's death as if you let him count down to holidays, and no victim will be coming back. It disgusts me.

See why I hate USA as a political entity (I have nothing against the Americans, but really hate their country as an institution)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gerrit

Death penalty equals murder. You don't just plan someone's death as if you let him count down to holidays, and no victim will be coming back. It disgusts me.

See why I hate USA as a political entity (I have nothing against the Americans, but really hate their country as an institution)

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That's a little broad isn't it? The US is also home to one of the most open and developed countries in the world. For example, for every Texas there is a Vermont. In the US, you can change things if you want. It's a vibrant and active democracy. I'm having a hard time understanding how you can hate an entire "political entity" when said entity is an open democracy (with the flaws that all democracies have).

It's not 100% ratio. Feelings are what they are, I don't know why I am anti-American politically while other countries are far from perfect either. But mainly it's capital punishment, it's the thing I hate most in the world and I have done several anti-capital-punishment campaigns and propaganda's so far (yes, I'm a wee activist ! We all have our ideals and just now and then you need to make them heard). Capital punishment in my opinion is so disgusting and wrong that it outbalances all good things on the US. Rationally i know it's not a right way of thinking, but as long as the US executes I cannot consider the country as civilised, sorry. It's just a feeling, I cannot stand, hear or see any government that thinks it's okay to kill its own citizens.

So basically, what disturbs me in the US and makes me anti-american on political level:

* capital punishment
* their embargo rules are very hypocritical
* George W Bush
* more capital punishment
* the role of the media in the domestic political scene
* more capital punishment
* religious propaganda being oversupported by a state that declares itself as the land of the free (eg Kansas adapting the Bible's theory in biology class next to Darwinism)
* huge violations against human rights
* not recognising the UN Tribunal in the Hague
* the war in Iraq which was totally unnecessary (still no biological or nuclear weapons found !)
* and more capital punishment

I know as well for every of these you can name tens of positive points on the US. But as I said, it's a feeling. The thought of capital punishment makes my blood boil with huge anger. As long as they execute, they're not civilised in my opinion, and I do not want to enter a state killing its own citizens (as by being a tourist there I'd be supporting the economy of a state whose morals are completely bouincing with mine)

Heard on the radio that snoop dog went to his funeral:eek:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thunderblaster

Tookie Williams deserved what he got. Try talking to the relatives of the victims that the death penalty is immoral to them. And there are other people rotting in jails that should have being strung up for their crimes. It is easy for him to "mend his ways" in jail, but it does not bring back four people he savagely butchered.

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What a rubbish. The argument "family of the victims" is the biggest emotional-chantage you can do in court, and it's pure rubbish. The killer also has family you know, a normal mom and dad will judge the acts of their child but not stop loving him/her. The killer's life can be saved, that of the victim is gone anyway. The family of the victim cannot get their loved one back, the family of the killer (who hate his act, but not the person he is -- no normal parent ever ditches their kids, no matter what) can but instead have to see how a wrong justice system is allowed to slaughter their locked-up son or daughter. It sickens me.

By the way, the family of victims who hooray when the killer makes his last breath: those people are DISGUSTING and may rot forever in hell next to the person whose murder they morally enjoyed ("rot in hell" is not literarly meant -- it's an expressing of my disgust for them)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gerrit

The killer also has family you know, a normal mom and dad will judge the acts of their child but not stop loving him/her.

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To quote Ian Huntley's mother on her son,
"He should be hung"
I think she stopped loving him when he murdered those two girls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gerrit

By the way, the family of victims who hooray when the killer makes his last breath: those people are DISGUSTING and may rot forever in hell next to the person whose murder they morally enjoyed ("rot in hell" is not literarly meant -- it's an expressing of my disgust for them)

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Have to diagree with you 100% there. If somone slaughtered or raped a loved one you are entitled to do whatever you like when they die. Fair play to the family victims who do "horray"; their choice-up to them I'd shake their hand any day of the week.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gerrit

So basically, what disturbs me in the US and makes me anti-american on political level:

* capital punishment
* their embargo rules are very hypocritical
* George W Bush
* more capital punishment
* the role of the media in the domestic political scene
* more capital punishment
* religious propaganda being oversupported by a state that declares itself as the land of the free (eg Kansas adapting the Bible's theory in biology class next to Darwinism)
* huge violations against human rights
* not recognising the UN Tribunal in the Hague
* the war in Iraq which was totally unnecessary (still no biological or nuclear weapons found !)
* and more capital punishment

---

A couple of points on your list-
Firstly yes, I agree being the only 'civilised' country in the world with capital punishment is dodgy- as someone pointed out it lines the USA up in a pretty poor list along with China and Iran. A point to make clear is everyone executed in the USA is a convicted murderer or mass murderer whereas people in China and Iran are executed for stealing CD's or speaking out against the state. You weon't get the lethal injection for sayin you don't like Bush!
Hypocrticial embargo rules? Anyone who knows anythign about Burma would agree it has th eworst human rights record in the world. America is one of 2 countries to have snactions against them. Say something doesn't it?
Along with the "Bible theory" being taught alognside Darwinism (this is a debate for another thread but....) what is wrong with that?
Darwinism is one theory started by one man and agreed with by many scientists.
The Christian theology of creation is one theory coming from the Vatican (originally) and agreed with by millions of people including many scientists.
Why on earth should one be taught and the other not?
Millions of issues have different theories and by teaching the children both sides of the story leaves them with an educated open mind to make their own judgement based on the facts. Fail to see whats wrong with that mate.

[QUOTE=liam88]
Along with the "Bible theory" being taught alognside Darwinism (this is a debate for another thread but....) what is wrong with that?
The Christian theology of creation is one theory coming from the Vatican (originally) and agreed with by millions of people including many scientists.
Why on earth should one be taught and the other not?
Millions of issues have different theories and by teaching the children both sides of the story leaves them with an educated open mind to make their own judgement based on the facts. Fail to see whats wrong with that mate

Way off topic here, but one thing that is wrong with this is that the people calling for creationism and/or intelligent design to be taught want it taught in science class. The idea that an intelligent being designed the universe is not testable, and so not science. It would be wrong to teach it as such.

So why not teach it in religion class? You can't do that in public schools here, since it violates the church/state separation, in the constitution (at least, as the constitution has been interpreted in the legal precedents).

Thanks for being so frank Gerrit. I appreciate and admire it.

I agree with your stance on capital punishment but I'd like to add some caveats.

There is no Federal death penalty, that is, the U.S. government does not execute anyone the states do. Many states have repealed the death penalty and it is only carried out in a few states. That doesn't make it right but it does highlight that it is not a universal issue.

As for "intelligent design", again it's really only an issue in a very few states and even then within a small community in those states. I wouldn't tar the entire country because of it.

One of my pet peeves about Ireland is that we somehow believe that we are so informed about the world and about the US. The reality is, most Irish people get their news from one basic source BBC/Irish Times both of which have their own biases and most Irish base their understanding of a country that is larger and more populous than Europe on their J1 summer trip to Boston.

Sadly, ignorance goes both ways.

There's nothing to admire about my post really. I stand up for what I honestly believe in: that capital punishment is the strongest violation against human rights and that every person, no matter how cruel his past, has at least the right to live.

Believe me, the last years I spent many hours on regular basis in campaigning against death penalty. It probably won't help, but I think it can not be wrong to stand up for my believes (without disrespecting those with a different opinion, although in a debate it can get rough verbally. If I didn't believe in this cause so badly I'd never be so frank in my replies about it)



As for your replies: in my opinion it is the task of both the federal government and the UN to force the states into abolishing capital punishment. So even though they don't execute themselves directly, the federal government does bear part of the guilt.

Also, I am not sure the federal government cannot execute. Wasn't Timothy McVeight sentenced to death by the federal government?

Anyway, I think it's wrong, period. 300 murders does not justify a 301st murder.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by liam88

a) To quote Ian Huntley's mother on her son,
"He should be hung"
I think she stopped loving him when he murdered those two girls.



b) Have to diagree with you 100% there. If somone slaughtered or raped a loved one you are entitled to do whatever you like when they die. Fair play to the family victims who do "horray"; their choice-up to them I'd shake their hand any day of the week.

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a) This is an exception then and very easy to say to the press. Most parents will hate their children's deeds but not their child. Also, I'd be very curious to see if mss Huntley would be so cold and emotionless if she'd count down the last hours in death row with her son and watch while someone pulls the trigger.

b) I disagree. Hooraying someone's death is a disgrace, no matter what this person has done. It's like a hungry wolf throwing himself on a wounded lamb: they want blood and are not pleased or fulfulled until a living person of flesh and blood has died. As if it will bring the one he murdered back... Those people are not to be forgiven for such a cruelty and lack of the slightest emotion, and I sincerely hope that if I'd ever get murdered that my family will do everything they can to save the life of my killer (knowing that my parents know how much I hate death penalty, I am sure they would respect my wish and want the killer to live)



Don't get me wrong, I don't choose the side of a criminal here. I just thinks that it is wrong to let someone count the days till he dies as if counting the days to catch a plane to Ibiza, I think it is wrong to take a life (no matter what that person did himself) and I think death penalty and the "eye for an eye" solution will never make society any better.

That is why I am anti-death penalty, without thereby justifying the killer. Lifetime imprisonment without chance for parole: agree 100%. Death penalty: disagree 200%.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sligoman

Heard on the radio that snoop dog went to his funeral:eek:

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Snoop Dogg is a Crip. The Rollin' 20's in Long Beach is his set.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by superfrank

Snoop Dogg is a Crip. The Rollin' 20's in Long Beach is his set.

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Can we have a translation on that Superfrank?

I'll have a go myself

Snoop Dog =supposedly hard man rapper keepin it real who stranglely seems to only be singing/talking about girls ars's anytime I hear him.

Crip(s) =name of an ethnically homogenous criminal gang

Rollin' 20's =haven't a clue. I'm guessing it's a licenced premises of some sort.

Long Beach =is a place ...apparently monikered so due to it's proximity to a long beach.

set = place where he resides, frequents, owns, sits around saying "know what I'm sayin".

A Brief History of the Los Angeles based Crips
Raymond Washington, a 15 year-old student at Fremont High School started what would later become known as the Crips in 1969. After much of the Black Panther power base was eliminated and as other social and political groups became ineffective in Los Angeles, Washington, who was too young to participate in the Panther movement during the 1960s, but absorbed much of the Panther rhetoric of community control of neighborhoods (Baker 1988, p. 28) fashioned his quasi-political organization after the Panther’s militant style by sporting the popular black leather jackets of the time. In addition to emulating the Panther appearance, Washington also admired an older gang that remained active throughout the 1960s called the Avenues, led by Craig and Robert Munson. He decided to name his new quasi-political organization the Baby Avenues (aka Avenue Cribs) to represent a new generation of youths.

Washington got together a few other friends near his 78th Street home near Fremont High School. His initial initial intent was to continue the revolutionary ideology of the 1960s and to act as community leaders and protectors of their local neighborhoods. The revolutionary vision did not endure and because of immaturity and a lack of political leadership young Raymond Washington and his group never were able to develop an agenda for social change within the community and became obsessed with protecting themselves from other thugs in the community. Early members included Anglo “Barefoot Pookie” White, Michael “Shaft” Concepcion, Melvin Hardy, Jimel “Godfather” Barnes, Bennie Simpson, Greg “Batman” Davis, Mack Thomas, Stanley “Tookie” Williams, Raymond “Danifu” Cook, Ecky, No 1, and Michael Christianson. Many of these youth became the neighborhood “toughs” in the community and gained respect from other youth in Los Angeles in the early 1970s.

In Los Angeles County today, there are 88 incorporated cities and dozens of other unincorporated places in Los Angeles County (LAC) with Crips firmly established in 24 cities and areas in the County. In 1972 the 8 Crip gangs grew to 45 in 1978. By 1982 there were 109 Crips in LA County and by the late 1990s there were 199 individual Crip gangs active in LA County. Crip growth in Los Angeles has stablized and even declined in areas that are undergoing demographic change, but in other parts of California, the United States and abroad, many have started copy cat gangs.

Altadena | Athens | Carson | Compton | Duarte | Florence | Gardena | Hawthorne | Inglewood | Lakewood | Long Beach | Los Angeles | Lynwood | Paramount | Pasadena | Pomona | Rosewood | Santa Monica | Torrance | West Covina | Willowbrook


101 Crip Gang
3rd Stret Crip (defunct)
7th Street Watts Crip
Acacia Block Compton Crip
Altadena Block Crip
Angelo Mafia Crip
Anzac Grape Compton Crip
Atlantic Drive Compton Crips
Avalon 40's Crip
Avalon Gangster Crips 53
Avalon Gangster Crip 116
Avalon Garden Crips 88
Back Street Crip
Beach Town Mafia Crip
Bible Crips (defunct)
Big Daddyz (BDZ)
Blunt Smoking Only Gang
BOGC
Born To Jacc Crip 73rd st
Boulevard Mafia Crips
Bricc Block Crip
Broadway Gangster Crip 112
Broadway Gangster Crip 52
BudLong Crip Gang 102
Burnside Avenue Crip Gang
Burris Blocc Compton Crip (defunct)
Butler Blocc Compton Crips
By Yourself Hustler Crips
Carver Park Compton Crips
Chester Street Compton Crips
Compton Avenue Crip, 95
DAWGS
Dirty Old Man Gang
Dodge City Crips
Don't Give a ****
Down Ass Pimp Gang, 109
Dragnet
Du Rocc Crip
Ducky Hood Compton Crip
East Coast Crip, 1st (defunct)
East Coast Crip, 59
East Coast Crip, 62 NHC
East Coast Crip, 66
East Coast Crip, 68
East Coast Crip, 69 Shacc Boys
East Coast Crip, 76
East Coast Crip, 89 NHC
East Coast Crip, 97
East Coast Crip, Q102
East Coast Blocc Crip, 118

East Coast Blocc Crip, 190
East Coast Crip, 200 East Side DAWGS
East Side Hustler Crip 104, 108
East Side Hustler Crip 115,118
East Side Players, 97
East Side Ridas, 64
East Side Ridaz, 59
Farm Dog Comton Crip
Four Corner Block Crip
Four Duece Crip Gang(w/s)
Four Line Drive Crip
Front Hood Compton Crip
Front Street Crip
Fudge Town Mafia Crip 105, 107
Gangster Crip, 105
Gangster Crip, 118
Gangster Crip, 42(e/s)
Gangster Crip, 43
Gangster Crip, 43 SS
Gangster Crip, 47 S
Gangster Crip, 48
Gangster Crip, 83
Gangster Crip, 87
Gangster Crip, 96
Gangster Crip, 97
Gangster Crip, 98
Gangster, Hoover 52
Gardena Pay Back Crip
Geer Gang Crip
Ghost Town Crips
Grandee Compton Crips (defunct)
Grape Street Watts
Grave Yard Crip
Gundry Blocc Paramount Crip
Harbor City Crips
Hard Time Hustler Crip, 88, 93
Hard Time Hustler Crip
Hard Time Hustler Crip, 78
Harvard Gangster Crip, 127
Hat Gang Watts Crip
Hickery Street Watts Crip
Holmes Town Crip
Home Boys Crimino Gang
Hoover, 43 (defunct)
Hoover, 59
Hoover Gangster, 52
Hoover, 74
Hoover, 83
Hoover, 92
Hoover, 94
Hoover, 107
Hoover, 112
HSHG
Imperial Village Crip
Insane Crip
Kelly Park Compton Crip
Kitchen Crip Gang, 87
Kitchen Crip Gang, 95
Kitchen Crip, 116
Latana Blocc Compton Crip
LDH 73
Lettin Niggas Have It
Osage Legend Crip, 102
Mack Mafia Crip
Mafia Crip, 99
Main Street Crip
Main Street Mafia Crip
Mansfield Gangster Crip
Marvin Gangster
Mayo Ave Compton Crip
Menlo Gangster Crip, 103
Menlo Gangster Crip, 65
McKinley Avenue Crips
Mona Park Compton Crips
Most Valuable Pimp Gangster Crip
Myrtle Street Crip
NBGC
Neighbor Hood 90 Crip
Neighbor Hood Compton Crips
Neighbor Hood Crip 106, 102
Neighbor Hood Crip 115
Neighbor Hood Crip 67
Neighbor Hood Crip, 111, 112 (w/s)
Neighbor Hood Crip, 111, 112 (e/s)
Neighbor Hood Crip, 46
Neighbor Hood Crip, 55
Neighbor Hood Crip, 57
Neighbor Hood Crip, 59
Neighbor Hood Crip, Lynwood
Neighborhood Watts Crip
Nestor Ave Compton Crip
Nothing But Trouble Halldale Crip
NSG Senyo Gang
Nutty Blocc Compton Crip
Original Blocc Crip Gang
Original Hood Crip
Original Swamp Compton Crip
Original Valley Gangster Crip
Palm & Oak Gangster
Palmer Blocc Compton Crips
Park Village Compton Crips
Perverts
Pimp Town Murder Squad
PJ Watts Crip
Play Boy Gangster Crip
PlayBoy Huster Crip
PlayBoy Style Crip 82
PlayBoy Style Crip 101,106
Poccet Hood Compton Crip
Raymond Ave Crip 102
Raymond Ave Crip 120
Raymond Ave Crip Pasadena
Raymond Street Hustler Compton Crip Crip
Rollin' 130's
Rollin 20s Long Beach
Rollin 30s
Rollin 40s
Rollin 50s
Rollin 60s
Rollin 80's West Coast Crip
Rollin 90s NHC
Rollin 90s Westcoast
RSH Compton Crip
Santa Fe Mafia Crip
Santana Blocc Compton Crip
School Yard Crips
Sex Symbols
Shotgun Crip
Sin Town Crip 357
Six Hood Compton Crip
Sons of Samoa
South Side Compton Crips
Spook Town Compton Crips

Stevenson Village Crip (Cold Village Dog)
Straight Ballers Society
T Zone Crip 110
Ten Line Ganster Crip
Tiny Hoodsta Crip
TMHG
Tonga Crip Gang
Tragniew Park Compton Crip
Twilight Zone Compton Crip 157
Under Ground Blocc Crip
Venice Shore Line
Victoria Park Crips
Ward Lane Compton Crip
WaterGate Crip
Watts Mafia Crip Gang
Watts Playground Crip 115
We Dont Care Crip
West Boulevard Crip 28
West Boulevard Crip 64
West Covina NH Crip
West Side Mafia
Young Ass Playas