Mayo FC

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Besides which there is no good reason why, if one of those three should achieve professional status, the other two cannot continue playing recreational football at the same time.

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Very difficult for one recreational club to make the leap to professional status. There is no one size fits all. Kerry League and Mayo League have embraced representative football. The formation of a club with the support of district league clubs is a natural enough evolution. It is not the solution for others, e.g. an Athlone - Mullingar rivalry might suit in the midlands, if Mullingar had interest.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

So let us assume an amateur Mayo FC were to finish 6th or 7th in this Third Tier i.e. "best of the rest" behind half a dozen Reserve teams and somehow scrape through a playoff. How do you imagine they would do in the FD? What would they bring to the party?
And what happens to the club which got relegated from the FD?

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The qualifying criteria is yet to be determined. The top half capped to 5th place might suit. 5th in the FD do qualify for a playoff.
The relegated club will be relegated to the third tier! The worst case scenario for the promoted club is that they finished 10th are in a playoff the following year.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Meanwhile, what do you think should be the criteria in order to obtain a Third Tier licence, never mind a FD one?

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Whatever criteria currently applies for U19s. Clubs should not be hindered from joining the third tier if they meet that existing criteria. It is from there that they need to make the step up to earn a First Division licence.

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Originally Posted by legendz

Very difficult for one recreational club to make the leap to professional status.

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Very difficult for one recreational club to make the leap to professional status in one leap.

Which is precisely why you need a proper pyramid i.e. a series of leaps (steps), with each one reasonably attainable from the level below. This is all the more important when talking about youth clubs which aspire to adult football such as Kerry or Mayo, or brand new clubs entirely, such as Sporting Fingal.

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Originally Posted by legendz

There is no one size fits all.

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Eh? That is the very antithesis of an agreed set of criteria i.e. applicants should have to meet the criteria, not the other way round.

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Originally Posted by legendz

Whatever criteria currently applies for U19s. Clubs should not be hindered from joining the third tier if they meet that existing criteria. It is from there that they need to make the step up to earn a First Division licence.

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No offence, but that sounds like making it up as you go along.

Which when you consider the number of LOI clubs which have gone into Examinership, or Bankruptcy followed by new "phoenix" entities, or even disappeared entirely, is no way to administer a league such that the game develops, rather than stagnates.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Very difficult for one recreational club to make the leap to professional status in one leap

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How many professional clubs are there in Northern Ireland?

Three, as far as I know - Linfield, Glentoran and Larne. Cliftonville are transitioning from part-to-full time (or possibly hybrid). Crusaders and Coleraine operate hybrid models. Open to correction on all.

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Originally Posted by legendz

How many professional clubs are there in Northern Ireland?

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All 24 clubs in the top two tiers of the NIFL are professional, in that they sign/employ players on UEFA/IFA-approved (paid) contracts. And as 'clairseach' says, 3 of these are fully f-t, with another two or three (unsure about Coleraine) operating a hybrid model i.e. some players f-t, some p-t. The remaining clubs are p-t.

Anyhow, this explains why many Southern/LOI players sign for NIFL clubs, even the smaller ones like Warrenpoint, Newry, Ballinamallard, Institute and Dungannon etc, especially if the players live in or near border counties and so have an easy commute from their day jobs etc - you can guarantee they're not doing it for nothing! (Applies to managers and coaches too, sometimes).

Beneath that level, afaik the majority of clubs in the Premier Intermediate League (trhird tier) are "professional" in that they too pay players (and managers), though many amount to little more than generous expenses, or signing-on fees.

There is also a bit of money sloshing about at certain clubs below the third tier, but it's hardly enough to count as "professional", at least in the generally accepted sense of the term. Sometimes if an amateur player (or officially "amateur" at least!) begins to attract a bit of attention from Senior clubs, his club will put him on a "professional" contract to prevent another club just snapping him up for them there and then, without compensation.

I suspect all professional contracts, f-t and p-t, have to be registered with the IFA, i.e. their existence at least, if not the actual terms.

Shamrock Rovers 6,011
St. Pat's 4,360
Cork City 4,150
Bohemians 4,263
Derry City 3,371
Shelbourne 3,184

Glentoran 3,019
Linfield 2,676
Coleraine 2,740
Larne 1,952
Cliftonville 1,819
Crusaders 1,538

I'm trying to picture Castlebar, Ballina or Westport getting some of the attendance figures above compared with what might be attainable for Mayo FC with all local district league clubs being supportive of an elite club. An elite club and district league clubs can coexist. It seems to be the best approach for Kerry and Mayo. It might not be the approach for an ambitious Mullingar 2001, Fanad United 2011 or Bernard O'Byrne's plans for Athboy Celtic.

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Originally Posted by legendz

Shamrock Rovers 6,011
St. Pat's 4,360
Cork City 4,150
Bohemians 4,263
Derry City 3,371
Shelbourne 3,184

Glentoran 3,019
Linfield 2,676
Coleraine 2,740
Larne 1,952
Cliftonville 1,819
Crusaders 1,538

I'm trying to picture Castlebar, Ballina or Westport getting some of the attendance figures above compared with what might be attainable for Mayo FC with all local district league clubs being supportive of an elite club.

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Whether Mayo FC or any of the three clubs you mention, none of them needs to achieve those sorts of attendances to sustain a semi-pro club - see eg nigel-harps1954's figures for Athlone, Bray, Longford or Wexford in the Attendances thread.

While Finn Harps averaging 1,370 after relegation, with the twin towns having a population of fewer than 5k in a county at least as geographically remote from the rest of the country as Co.Mayo, shows what can be done. Of course, they rose to Senior status, and maintained it, from their base as an existing community club, not some dreamt-up county or region.

I'm very interested in how we're going to get a new pyramid set up but my god this conversation is running in circles.
At present intermediate clubs aren't willing or ready to promote themselves to the LOI, as such clubs like Mayo & Kerry have been set up to provide elite football to those areas without waiting ten years for local club sides to step up.
I don't see why we can't let a few county teams join the league while we're in this slow, arduous process of developing a pyramid. It probably suits the Irish sports fan's mindset anyway.

Building up junior & intermediate football to the point where they can promote the LOI is alll well and good, but it'll take years and in the meantime we badly need opportunities for under 19s graduates who aren't ready yet.

County teams is the way to go for the likes of Mayo (and Clare hopefully in the future). It is ok for Sligo, Cork, Galway and Waterford etc as the name of the big town is the same as the county. Identity is important when creating a fanbase and name, shirt colours are key here. Cork should play in red and Limerick in green I feel.

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Originally Posted by wonder88

County teams is the way to go for the likes of Mayo (and Clare hopefully in the future). It is ok for Sligo, Cork, Galway and Waterford etc as the name of the big town is the same as the county. Identity is important when creating a fanbase and name, shirt colours are key here. Cork should play in red and Limerick in green I feel.

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I'm genuinely not really sure what I think - it does make sense in some ways - but I do kind of like the idea that Longford Town aren't the same colours as Longford GAA (though I think they do tend to go with county colours for their away kit).

Kerry seem to have done a good job of having the same colours but it also does appear distinct enough at the same time.

I suppose Wexford have done similar changing to the purple this season, however they've managed it Wexford FC's jersey is nicer than any other Wexford GAA jersey in history. I used to like the Pink & Black but I realise that has strong connections to Mick Wallace and I'd imagine there was a fairly conscious effort to disassociated themselves from him!

Drogheda and Dundalk are probably better separate than a joint Louth FC team. A bit of local rivalry can be quite healthy.

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Originally Posted by GUFCghost

At present intermediate clubs aren't willing or ready to promote themselves to the LOI, as such clubs like Mayo & Kerry have been set up to provide elite football to those areas without waiting ten years for local club sides to step up.

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Then put in place the structure that will allow them to do so. That is, a proper pyramid, built from the bottom up, with attainable steps from Junior to Intermediate, then Intermediate to Senior, with the basic building blocks being existing clubs, where we know there is an appetite for football.

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Originally Posted by GUFCghost

I don't see why we can't let a few county teams join the league while we're in this slow, arduous process of developing a pyramid. It probably suits anyway.

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I can, for three reasons.
First, by parachuting Mayo, Kerry or CK into the Senior set-up, you're automatically ending any hope of clubs eg in Castlebar, Tralee or Kilkenny ever making it by a more conventional route;
Second, how many more county/regional candidates are there out there after those three? That is, even if all three succeeded, you'd still only have 22 Senior LOI clubs (incls UCD and Derry), which for a country of ROI's history, resources and potential is very poor (imo);
Third, there is no guarantee that the County/U-19 model will work - if Kerry is anything to go by, the jury must still be out.

And if by "the Irish sports fan's mindset" you mean "barstoolers", "event junkies" or "bandwagoners" etc, should the game really be pandering to those people? Or instead looking to help all the dedicated club men and women who volunteer their time and effort at local teams up and down the country?

Remember, the more you put into this County/Regional model, the more the grassroots get cast adrift.

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Originally Posted by GUFCghost

Building up junior & intermediate football to the point where they can promote the LOI is alll well and good, but it'll take years and in the meantime we badly need opportunities for under 19s graduates who aren't ready yet.

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Of course "it'll take years".

Which is like the old question: "When's the best time to plant a tree?" Answer: "Twenty five years ago!" Which is just another way of pointing out that just because the obvious solution to a problem is hard, that's still not a good reason for pursuing other, ostensibly easier "solutions" which aren't likely to work.

And as for your U-19 graduates, how many of those are going to travel to play for nothing for a County team which gets beaten most weeks, especially those from the far reaches of the county?
The best will still either go across the water, or get snapped up by another Senior LOI club; while the next best will still likely join their local GAA club (or some other sport); and the rest will most likely opt for "recreational" football with their local team.

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Originally Posted by GUFCghost

I'm very interested in how we're going to get a new pyramid set up but my god this conversation is running in circles.

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Of course it's going to run around in circles while people resolutely refuse to address the reality, including the difficulties, of actually building a pyramid.

And instead veer off in pursuit of another plan entirely, made worse by trying to pretend it really is pyramid-building (i.e. calling it a "Third Tier"), when it is nothing of the sort. (Don't necessarily mean you by those comments, btw)

Kerry League and Mayo League have entered the League Cup previously. Going back as far as 2004. It was always an indication that the establishment of elite clubs in Kerry and Mayo would be with the support of their local district league.

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Originally Posted by wonder88

County teams is the way to go for the likes of Mayo (and Clare hopefully in the future). It is ok for Sligo, Cork, Galway and Waterford etc as the name of the big town is the same as the county. Identity is important when creating a fanbase and name, shirt colours are key here. Cork should play in red and Limerick in green I feel.

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F*** off away out of that.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Whether Mayo FC or any of the three clubs you mention, none of them needs to achieve those sorts of attendances to sustain a semi-pro club - see eg nigel-harps1954's figures for Athlone, Bray, Longford or Wexford in the Attendances thread.

While Finn Harps averaging 1,370 after relegation, with the twin towns having a population of fewer than 5k in a county at least as geographically remote from the rest of the country as Co.Mayo, shows what can be done. Of course, they rose to Senior status, and maintained it, from their base as an existing community club, not some dreamt-up county or region.

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Finn Harps represent all of Donegal and draw a lot of support from other bigger towns nearby - they don't compete against Letterkenny and Donegal town for support.

Wexford town - 20k
Athlone town - 23k
Longford town - 11k

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_population

Ballina - pop 10k
Castlebar - pop 12k
Westport - pop 5k

Would be very hard to see all 3 teams in Mayo being able to average attendences to sustain nationwide travel and also pay players enough to justify time off travelling, while competing against each other for ever smaller slice of pie.

Common sense would dictate Mayo FC umbrella with proper underage setup, based in Castlebar, is absolutely the correct approach for that region.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Drogheda and Dundalk are probably better separate than a joint Louth FC team. A bit of local rivalry can be quite healthy.

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Yeah definitely! In this case absolutely, the populations are over a critical level to support a nationwide pro team each and the rivalry is a big bonus.

Dundalk and Drogheda are big 45k towns.

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Originally Posted by Buller

Finn Harps represent all of Donegal and draw a lot of support from other bigger towns nearby - they don't compete against Letterkenny and Donegal town for support.

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I think we all know only too well that EG is well able to argue for himself but I think the point he was making was that when Harps joined the league they would have come from a position of being rivals to those towns at the time.

For me the main point of all of this is that these teams are establishing academies BEFORE they join the senior level, thus at least having some sort of pathway, rather than having to parachute in players with no connection to the club.

I'd be firmly of the view that we need a proper pyramid system but it also needs to be attractive for clubs to join League of Ireland - at the moment most clubs would lose money on joining, particularly ones in areas where it might be difficult to "sell" the idea of a League of Ireland club, like Crumlin United, for example.

There's always the argument of certain players could play League of Ireland but... That "but" is often a flaw in the player, for example Garreth McCaffrey has had plenty of opportunities at LoI level but for whatever reason hasn't been able to make the step up.

Others will just choose to remain locally as the incentive financially isn't enough, I think this is probably the case in Limerick, though again I think the standard of player in the Limerick League is probably vastly overestimated (by themselves mostly!).


I think I'm kind of waffling now but yeah... something something... academies... something something... pyramid structure.

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Originally Posted by Buller

Yeah definitely! In this case absolutely, the populations are over a critical level to support a nationwide pro team each and the rivalry is a big bonus.

Dundalk and Drogheda are big 45k towns.

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Yep - I think it's just worth noting different things work for different clubs. I don't think we need be as wedded to the county model as some suggest

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Originally Posted by wonder88

County teams is the way to go for the likes of Mayo (and Clare hopefully in the future). It is ok for Sligo, Cork, Galway and Waterford etc as the name of the big town is the same as the county. Identity is important when creating a fanbase and name, shirt colours are key here. Cork should play in red and Limerick in green I feel.

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County colours might be an idea for new county teams like Kerry and Mayo to play on that whole county idea, but for as long as I remember Cork have been green and Limerick are blue (Albeit treaty play in red and white stripes I think but eventually I think they’ll revert to the limerick name and the blue colour at some point).
You saw the uproar a few years when the Chinese Cardiff owner wanted to change their club colours - it was ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by GUFCghost

I'm very interested in how we're going to get a new pyramid set up but my god this conversation is running in circles.
At present intermediate clubs aren't willing or ready to promote themselves to the LOI, as such clubs like Mayo & Kerry have been set up to provide elite football to those areas without waiting ten years for local club sides to step up.
I don't see why we can't let a few county teams join the league while we're in this slow, arduous process of developing a pyramid. It probably suits the Irish sports fan's mindset anyway.

Building up junior & intermediate football to the point where they can promote the LOI is alll well and good, but it'll take years and in the meantime we badly need opportunities for under 19s graduates who aren't ready yet.

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Which is why I don't bother contributing any more. It's not far off of a 'We need world peace' discussion.

I've yet to see anyone gennunely disagreeing with the idea of a pyramid in Irish football. It's just that it can't be merely wished into existence. Nor will it simply happen by endlessly repeating the mantra that we should have a pyramid.

Also - The idea that any further tiers or clubs can't be introduced unless and until the whole of Irish football is one big pyramid is also pretty absolutist to be honest. A bit like saying a reduction in conflict in one corner of the planet isn't good enough unless and until we get genuine world peace everywhere.