Johnny Kenny F Shamrock Rovers b.2003

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CSAD

Nope that’s you putting words in my mouth again, the issue here is you comparing English and Scottish teams and think the two are on par with each other.

---

Why aren't they on a par with each other? I've shown they're at a similar level in playing terms. Ultimately you need to spend money to keep up in modern football. Yes, there's only two teams in Scotland, but the real money is in Europe and that's definitely competitive. I don't think Johnny Kenny or Afolabi are really going to cut it there. Why do you think bringing through young players should trump European results?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CSAD

Also you conveniently move the goal posts and only mention a-few Irish players but then ignore the fact they brought through little to no Scottish players or any nationality for that matter. It’s a trend that you seem to side step as you refuse to accept that Celtic could do anything wrong.

---

But I've shown they've a similar number of academy players in their squad as other large clubs.

But you've ignored everything and gone off on a baseless rant again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jd2793

he said at the time it was a shock to be released. doesnt sound like a guy who rejected a contract.

Towards the end of the most recent English football season, however, the 19-year-old was told he was surplus to requirements at Southampton.
“It was a bit of a shock, because I thought I was doing well. They saw other aspects and probably favoured someone else. I’m not in control of that.

---

There was a few reports around that time that he was offered a deal
https://www.footballinsider247.com/e...-new-contract/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

He signed a 5-year deal in January?

---

Afolabi, not Kenny

Oops! Mis-read that; apologies.

It seems to me that moving to Celtic is simply the wrong choice of Scottish premier league club when it comes to a LOI player who now deserves a chance to prove himself at the Scottish PL level. Comparing the fates of Kenny and Tierney at Motherwell is a good exercise. My takeaway is that Celtic take a punt and outsource development to B league and Div2 clubs whereas the smaller clubs have a more defined and achievable pathway to the first team. Aaron McEneff another who got a chance straight away and did well. Even Liam Scales has done better away from Celtic.

Players hoping to get a chance and not stagnate would do better to look at other Scottish clubs as a more viable option.

Stu - I think you’ve got this one really wrong. First the quality of our players that went to Celtic were among our best. Their time at Celtic was so detrimental to their progression that they’re now viewed as worse players than they would have been.

The issues Celtic have are in a few different areas. They have certain inherent advantages, in that a dominant side like Celtic can often blood young players into a team when they’re winning games easily. They coast through games and often seasons, which provides amble opportunities to give game time to young prospects - if they chose that development path.

The issue is, Celtic have historically had real success with the likes of Van Dijk, Wanyama, Dembele, Ajer, Edouard, Frimpong. So basically every year they buy a handful of cheap dudes in their early 20s with decent potential from a decent league and hope to flip them for 20m in a 2-3 years time. The majority don’t really work out but if one in every three does, it’s a success. Say for example with Jota now. He’s gotta be worth 3 or 4 times what they paid for him just a year ago.

Then they also try pick up the best of the rest in Scotland and ask them to step up. Guys like Taylor and Turnbull are examples of this.

There’s hit and miss with those both those sets of players, so the squad ends up really bloated, I remember it was around 35 senior players at one point recently. The J-league is also a new market where they’re brought players across.

The issue is, when you’re bringing in 5-10 fringy dudes every seasons, you end up trying to find minutes for them to see how good they are. And all the game time that could have gone to allow a youth player to progress instead goes to Partrick Klimala or Ismaila Soro or whoever.

There’s certain issues outside their control - the development in Scotland for their reserve team is appalling. They and rangers have tried to enter the third division in Scotland but have been unsuccessful. There’s not much more they can do. But anyone who’s playing for Celtic B at the age of 18 or over is basically stagnating.

You combine it together and you’ve got a **** development structure and no pathways to the first team.

Lee O’Connor, they paid good money for. They gave him a good contract. He was really highly thought of at United, came second in the youth player of the year, had already been called up to the senior irish squad, but he didn’t see a pathway to the first team at United and Celtic swooped. He signed on deadline day and later that day, they bought Frimpong from City. Frimpong was bought for 300k and sold 18 months later for 11.5m - that was the guy who blocked his progress at Celtic.

Similarly they paid Bolton a fee to make sure they got Connell. He was playing championship football week in, week out. Bolton’s one bright stop on a bad season. Also called up to the senior squad. Same issue, no pathway, years of stagnation.

Afolabi was part of that block of 5 ultra talented attacking players: Obafemi, Parrott, Idah, Connolly and Afolabi. Afolabi was a sought after player - we had a mutual friend at the time and when Celtic signed him, he had been offered a contract by teams in the premier league, championship, league one and in Europe. Celtic offered him a pathway to the first team and a really attractive contract. His outcome from where he was in 2019 is a disgrace. Just look at what Neil Lennon said about him after 2 months at Celtic. Maybe he didn’t have the level to play for Ireland or at a really really top level but he was a much better player than Kayode and someone who should be playing League 1, rather than struggling at Bohs.

Okoflex was wasted there. It really hurt his development - because Brendan Rodgers mapped out a Raheem Sterling plan for him when he rejected Arsenal to go there. Despite those wasted years, he’s still doing pretty well, doing pretty well at Swansea at 20. But he was considered basically on the same level as Parrott when he signed for Celtic and now he’s not.

Barry Coffey was probably never going to be a guy who made any kind of breakthrough but the outcome was still less than the original talent justified.

I honestly feel if say Omobamidele had signed there, he’d be on loan at Queens Park or Alloa or someone in the 3rd or 4th tier of Scottish football - and eventually he’d be released and end up back in Ireland or in the lower leagues in England - and Celtic aren’t proved wrong cause they’ve hindered his development so much that he’s a shell of the player he could have been. It’s all hypothetical but that’s my take.

You’d worry about Lawal, Kenny and Vata in particular of the next generation - all guys who had a real chance. Very hard to evaluate Ben Quinn due to covid and not seeing him at u17. There’s also Osagie who’s the same age group, and Cannon and Gill who are younger.

Literally a club I would tell every young player to avoid unless they’re buying you for 5m

I think this incident led to Okoflex being frozen out at Celtic: https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soc...eight-21929191

Thinking of Celtic breakthroughs that got relatively decent loans - Kris Ajer was loaned to Kilmarnock, Tony Ralston was loaned to St Johnstone, Ryan Christie was on loan at ICT/Aberdeen for 2 years before he broke into the team, Callum McGregor was on loan at Notts County when in L1. Liam Shaw was on loan at Motherwell where he actually looked poor. If a player is good enough another Scot Prem club will look to loan them and Celtic will be only happy to do so as it'll strengthen opposition against Rangers and they won't be able to play against Celtic. Celtic have a proven track record for identifying, buying and selling on at massive profit young talent. They've also been able to bring through to varying degrees Scottish talent such as Tierney, McGregor, Forrest, Ralston, Welsh and Johnston.

I watched Luca Connell play preseason games for Celtic and whilst he'd a tidy enough player on the ball he, in my view, lacks the requisite strength and pace to play at the top level. Some people here want to paint a picture that Celtic are so singularly awful at youth development that they have caused irreparable damage to the likes of Connell, Afolabi and O'Connor hence they haven't met their true potential and are not plying their trade at a level which proves Celtic made a huge error. If they were good enough they'd be in the team making an impact like Liel Abada did when he was signed at 19 or be sought after by other Premier clubs for a loan like Scales and Aberdeen. Lawal and Kenny have looked similarly not up to the level when playing in friendlies. Vata has looked good for the Bs but hasn't really figured at first team level so far.

Interesting points above. I don't know much about Celtics structures at all.

On Kenny specifically I don't think he was or will be anywhere close to the level they require. It just seemed like a punt for the future but if their B team isn't really useful for development as elatescum says, why did they sign someone so young who needs so much work? Just playing the numbers game?

Kenny had a good season for a young lad in the LoI. No question there. But he did nothing against the best defenders in the league. Subbed off at halftime against Rovers iirc after being bullied around by Pico and co. If he couldn't do damage against them he was never going to step right up at Celtic. So was the plan always a loan move?

Good to see him coming back because he still has a lot to prove at our level. Should have stayed another year or three before Celtic took him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elatedscum

the quality of our players that went to Celtic were among our best.

Similarly they paid Bolton a fee to make sure they got Connell. He was playing championship football week in, week out.

Afolabi was part of that block of 5 ultra talented attacking players: Obafemi, Parrott, Idah, Connolly and Afolabi. Afolabi was a sought after player

---

I think though this forum has a long history of completely overestimating the ability of our players purely because of where they're from - because we want them to be good.

So Luca Connell wasn't really playing week in week out. He played less than a dozen games - losing all bar one - when Bolton ran out of players. I know SkStu has said he knows someone who knows someone who said he was really rated, but I'll take it with a pinch of salt. Any young player port in a storm (which sounds really dodgy actually!) I've done the same at UCD.

And the list of highly sought-after forwards you mention - none of them have really set the world alight in fairness. Obafemi has done best but seems to have injury/attitude problems. Parrott is struggling to find his feet in the English second tier. Idah has done nothing of note and we all know about Connolly's woes. And obviously as much as none of them have made it, none of them is finished either (even Afolabi, given the amount of LoI to L1 transfers lately)

I know from UCD's history the benefits of a young player joining a club that will give them a chance. Maybe Celtic was a bad move and I've said earlier in thread about his joining lower SPL sides and making a career of it, but also never troubling the national team (Hoolahan aside)

But let's not pretend - as CSAD is doing - that Celtic have suddenly made their guys much worse players or that they have a duty to develop them; that doesn't wash with me. Afolabi got plenty of loan deals for example and made nothing of them. I know Poor Student watches more of Celtic than any of the rest of us combined and I'd take his view on how Celtic work loan deals (which in fairness sounds very similar to how other big clubs work them - but we don't criticise Man United for how Kieran O'Hara turned out)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkStu

It seems to me that moving to Celtic is simply the wrong choice of Scottish premier league club when it comes to a LOI player who now deserves a chance to prove himself at the Scottish PL level. Comparing the fates of Kenny and Tierney at Motherwell is a good exercise. My takeaway is that Celtic take a punt and outsource development to B league and Div2 clubs whereas the smaller clubs have a more defined and achievable pathway to the first team. Aaron McEneff another who got a chance straight away and did well. Even Liam Scales has done better away from Celtic.

Players hoping to get a chance and not stagnate would do better to look at other Scottish clubs as a more viable option.

---

But scales did well away from celtic because he wasnt good enough for the first team. he played a handful of games including some woeful european displays and he never played again. most fans said after bodo he wasnt good enough. celtic/rangers are a different beast to aberdeen , playing in europe is another story altogether. mceneff struggled , no? only 7 spl starts i think it was.

Sadly (because I'd obviously love to see Scales do well) that's exactly true

23 points off Celtic after 17 games is literally different level stuff

im gone at someone blaming celtic for barry coffeys lack of progress. talk to any lads who played against him at schoolboy level and they all say the ssame. good player but youd never have said he was celtic level. lee oconnor had a lot more pedigree underage here than coffey. coffey is LOI at very best. more blame should be planted at uniteds door than celtics for oconnor. they had him in his formative years, celtic took a punt on him when he became a free agent.

Honestly haven't read the full thread, page 1 is enough, but some of the stuff from CSAD etc would make you pull your hair out.

Scotland has a 4 division senior league set up. With a double tier below it (highland/lowland) to feed in to it. These leagues are bursting with full time career pros. And academy trained youngsters who didn't make the big SPL sides as seniors for whatever reason.

But there is an inference on here that a level like the Scottish Championship is pub football and fellas who have scored in the the LOI (half the the premier teams part time?) should be walking it. Or it's Celtics fault?

Watch something like the Open Goal Broomhill documentaries to get a feel for lower league Scottish football. In Ireland we have this crazy snobbish attitude towards their game while we have an absolute shambles of a system while they have a massive pyramid covering the whole country and a thriving junior scene to boot.

Noticed that Graham Carey was playing against Celtic today for St Johnstone. I was trying to think who is the highest profile Celtic cast off playing their trade currently. If you exclude Robertson at Liverpool, who was cut very early at boys level I'm thinking it's maybe Jackson Irvine, who I don't think would even make the current Celtic team today. You either subscribe to the theory that Celtic ruin these players' development so bad that they never resurface or the players who don't make it just aren't very good. If you go down through the squads of most SPFL Premier clubs you'll find teams peppered with various players who didn't make the grade at Celtic over the years. Celtic are also increasingly losing top prospects to English clubs like Ben Doak to Liverpool and Hjelde to Leeds before they even make the first team as they can be offered far more generous terms by EPL clubs. You can be sure any EPL club that was so inclined could have beaten Celtic to the signatures of the Irish lads if they so desired. I do accept that on an individual basis a player might decide they have a better chance of getting a first team spot like Moussa Dembele, but more often than not they'll be losing out on wages. Chances are if Celtic have come out on top then the player is not being sought or particularly valued by bigger English clubs.

There's Ireland U19 player Frankie deane at Burnley as well, was tipped for the first team at Celtic before he moved in the summer
https://www.burnleyfootballclub.com/...al-for-frankie

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bottle of Tonic

Honestly haven't read the full thread, page 1 is enough, but some of the stuff from CSAD etc would make you pull your hair out.

Scotland has a 4 division senior league set up. With a double tier below it (highland/lowland) to feed in to it. These leagues are bursting with full time career pros. And academy trained youngsters who didn't make the big SPL sides as seniors for whatever reason.

But there is an inference on here that a level like the Scottish Championship is pub football and fellas who have scored in the the LOI (half the the premier teams part time?) should be walking it. Or it's Celtics fault?

Watch something like the Open Goal Broomhill documentaries to get a feel for lower league Scottish football. In Ireland we have this crazy snobbish attitude towards their game while we have an absolute shambles of a system while they have a massive pyramid covering the whole country and a thriving junior scene to boot.

---

While, yes, saying it's pub football that is way below LOI level is overstating it, based on average attendances in 2022, they are comparable. And it's not the fortunes of regular LOI players we're talking about - it's prospective Irish internationals we're concerned about. If they're at Celtic and not considered good enough to break into the first team immediately, all Celtic can offer them is Celtic B, playing against players ranked as about the 1000th-1500th best players in Scotland or a loan to a league around the same level as the LOI. Staying for a middling EPL club, they get to play against some of the top players in their age group in the world or there's the potential for a loan to League One, which is definitely a couple of cuts above LOI.

And, yes, perhaps the likes of Jonathan Afolabi and Barry Coffey were never going to be big stars, but Luca Connell went there as a burgeoning Championship/League One level player, spent two seasons below LOI level, when he should have been establishing himself as a high-level pro. And it appeared that he was overhyped. But he's now gone to a big League One club and immediately established him. Likewise Armstrong Oko-Flex - goes to Celtic as a highly regarded teen. Three years and a couple of substitute appearances [FONT=arial][COLOR=#000000]later, [/COLOR][/FONT]you'd be forgiven for writing him off - so he goes to West Ham, goes into their academy and eighteen months later he's getting regular Championship football.

So basically, Celtic's development pathway for youngsters is not great - in fact, if LOI clubs can continue to build attendances to make the league full-time, that might become a better option for young Irish players, if it isn't already

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bottle of Tonic

Honestly haven't read the full thread, page 1 is enough, but some of the stuff from CSAD etc would make you pull your hair out.

Scotland has a 4 division senior league set up. With a double tier below it (highland/lowland) to feed in to it. These leagues are bursting with full time career pros. And academy trained youngsters who didn't make the big SPL sides as seniors for whatever reason.

But there is an inference on here that a level like the Scottish Championship is pub football and fellas who have scored in the the LOI (half the the premier teams part time?) should be walking it. Or it's Celtics fault?

Watch something like the Open Goal Broomhill documentaries to get a feel for lower league Scottish football. In Ireland we have this crazy snobbish attitude towards their game while we have an absolute shambles of a system while they have a massive pyramid covering the whole country and a thriving junior scene to boot.

---

This was sort of the reason I gave up on this discussion, not only am I debating with impartial Celtic fans I’m also debating with illiterate idiots who can’t see to grasp the English language so must make things up that I said.

Point to at what point I said Kenny should be walking the championship or at least acknowledge that you are trying to put words in my mouth, then maybe I’ll see sense in continuing this discussion.

I thought about correcting you but when you threw in the “thriving junior scene” in j realized it was a pointless task.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by samhaydenjr

all Celtic can offer them is Celtic B, playing against players ranked as about the 1000th-1500th best players in Scotland or a loan to a league around the same level as the LOI.

---

Right now, Celtic have players on loan at Aberdeen (Scales), Sturm Graz, Utrecht and Vitoria Guimares, all teams in a stronger league than the LoI

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jd2793

im gone at someone blaming celtic for barry coffeys lack of progress. talk to any lads who played against him at schoolboy level and they all say the ssame. good player but youd never have said he was celtic level. lee oconnor had a lot more pedigree underage here than coffey. coffey is LOI at very best

---

i literally said he was almost never going to be at celtic's level. my point is if he went to someone like stoke for example, he'd be a far better footballer now than he is for signing at Celtic. Celtic is just a terrible environment for young players to develop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elatedscum

Barry Coffey was probably never going to be a guy who made any kind of breakthrough but the outcome was still less than the original talent justified.

---

in player development, there's a concept of the percentile outcomes of individual players. so let's imagine you have a good young player, say 15 years old, and you clone him 100 times and you send 1 clone to 100 different clubs. 6 years later, you check back in on all 100 clones and how they're doing in the game and how good a player they are. imagine it's a player like evan ferguson, his 1st percentile outcome is probably a top premier league striker and his 99th percentile outcome is retired or playing leinster senior league by 25. maybe his 50th percentile outcome is something similar to shane long's career.

it's particularly useful when considering big countries like France, England, Spain, Germany etc. where you might have 500 really talented footballers at a young age in any given year - and ensuring that the academies and coaching and all the development structures are good means suddenly you start producing far more elite footballers.

haaland might be the first percentile outcome of his talent (so if you cloned a 16 year old Haaland 100 times, the best one might be the one that we have now), odegaard in comparison, might be the 50th. there's players who have a really wide range of outcomes (low floor, high ceiling) and other players who's outcomes are more defined (high floor, low ceiling).

it's my belief that when a irish teenager signs for celtic, they're generally ending up with the 70th or 80th or 90th percentile outcome, rather than the 50th or better.

And to back to Barry Coffey, even if his first percentile outcome for his career was a championship footballer, and his fiftieth percentile outcome was someone like Gary O'Neill - I still think Celtic underdelivered and after 5 years under contract with them, we ended up with the 70th percentile outcome.

Do you honestly have any confidence that had Bazunu signed for Celtic rather than City, that he'd be starting for them? Or the same with Knight and Omobamidele? I really think they wouldn't. Nathan Collins probably would (he's a high floor, high ceiling guy), he was always going to reach their level, but that's just how they end up producing someone like Tierney.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CSAD

This was sort of the reason I gave up on this discussion, not only am I debating with impartial Celtic fans I’m also debating with illiterate idiots who can’t see to grasp the English language so must make things up that I said.

Point to at what point I said Kenny should be walking the championship or at least acknowledge that you are trying to put words in my mouth, then maybe I’ll see sense in continuing this discussion.

I thought about correcting you but when you threw in the “thriving junior scene” in j realized it was a pointless task.

---

You have a shocking posting style CSAD. I'd really hope you don't across that way in person. There's little need for your aggressive, condescending style amongst a few lads who just chat football.

Anyway FWIW, my entire post wasn't directed at you. There's a few others with a poor opinion on Scottish Football. I myself am no great supporter of it. And the problems of youth development there (celtic included) are too wide for me to discuss here, tapping on a phone. I would merely point out that they have a mature structure and system that puts ours to shame and its no surprise if one of our young players goes over there and is out competed.

I would have no problem agreeing that if you are not in Celtics first team squad and are 17+ it's not a good place to be. In my opinion though, it's almost all up to the player to beat his direct opponents and further his own career.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by samhaydenjr

Likewise Armstrong Oko-Flex - goes to Celtic as a highly regarded teen. Three years and a couple of substitute appearances [FONT=arial][COLOR=#000000]later, [/COLOR][/FONT]you'd be forgiven for writing him off - so he goes to West Ham, goes into their academy and eighteen months later he's getting regular Championship football.

---

I've posted several times on here but his attitude was known to stink and he got frozen out for this: https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soc...eight-21929191 . He's a lucky boy to get picked up by an EPL club after that.