EU Constitution

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

so its a case of a constant ÉANNA SAYS NO banner?

the Nice vote was hijacked by the opposition parties in this country, as cheap shots at bertie. the first was not passed because the opposition lied and said that if we voted yes, we'd become part of an EU military, when in reality, a small donation to a conceptual "rapid reaction force" which would never have been called upon (can you really see north africa or russia launching a ground assault on us without years of build up?) was all that was needed.

of the few irish people that did vote, the majority of those who voted no were either following the party line or were voting no the the RRF.

the government then took the time to actually educate people as to what the treaty was about, and despite another attempted hijacking, intellegent, thinking people voted for the treaty to be passed.

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It was their own fault for not educating the people in the first place. The Nice referendum was classic EU- "here's a treaty, go on sign it, its good for you, don't bother asking whats in it, you don't need to know anything, except that its good for you" People say no, so they're treated like kids and told do it again. It was profoundly undemocratic and it is the reason I will never vote in favour of ANY European treaty again. How can you trust a body that ignores what the people say?

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Originally Posted by Éanna

It was their own fault for not educating the people in the first place. The Nice referendum was classic EU- "here's a treaty, go on sign it, its good for you, don't bother asking whats in it, you don't need to know anything, except that its good for you" People say no, so they're treated like kids and told do it again. It was profoundly undemocratic and it is the reason I will never vote in favour of ANY European treaty again. How can you trust a body that ignores what the people say?

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Well said Eanna.

I consider myself extremely pro-Europe and I voted No to Nice on both occasions -militantly so the second time 'round when we were told we were wrong now get back in there and vote the right way.

Paranoid nonsense to say the opposition used Nice as a cheap shot at Bertie. Typical FF crap thinking there's nothing more important to people than scoring points against Bertie Ahern.

I believe in a nation-state-based strong united Europe.

Interesting thread so far...

Two thoughts

1/ The government were able to get away with a re-run of the Nice treaty for one simple reason.... less than 50% of the electorate bothered to vote on it the first time. Ergo the vast majority of people did not express an opinion , so therefore the No Vote recorded a victory represented a minority of the population here. The same cannot be said for the French or Dutch votes against the Constitution in which turnouts were over 65% in both countries.

2/ How many people who voted no in France and or Holland and indeed who intend voting No here have actually read some or all of the damn document?
I would hazard a guess that very few did.
I intend to peruse it at least before making up my mind.
The best way to bash the government between National Elections is to bloody their noses at Local government and European Parliament elections as was done here recently. This issue is way too important to vent your spleen about the government by voting No in a kneejerk reaction.

If having read the document( or some of it) you dislike what it represents then by all means vote it down. But give it a chance before kicking it in the crotch!

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Originally Posted by Éanna

It was their own fault for not educating the people in the first place.

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they werent quite prepared for the topic being turned into "should ireland lose its neutrality, yes or no?"

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The Nice referendum was classic EU- "here's a treaty, go on sign it, its good for you, don't bother asking whats in it, you don't need to know anything, except that its good for you"

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all the information was there, readily available for the public to take note of. instead, "the people" ate out of the sensationalist media's ahnds because its just easier, isnt it?

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People say no, so they're treated like kids and told do it again.

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a minority of the people of ireland said no, the government address their concerns and then asked them to reconsider.

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It was profoundly undemocratic

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i dont see how presenting the public with a choice was undemocratic.

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and it is the reason I will never vote in favour of ANY European treaty again.

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im trying to stay away from personal issues, but from the opinions ive seen you voice in the internet, it always seems to be a case of black and white.

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How can you trust a body that ignores what the people say?

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they didnt ignore what "the people" say. they addressed the concerns of the MINORITY of irish people who voted no to losing their neutrality, and managed to cut through the lies and present the case. "the people" then agreed. democracy, sweet sweet democracy. an open forum with discussion and opnions based on facts rather than prejudices, and an effort to portray the truth 100%.

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

Paranoid nonsense to say the opposition used Nice as a cheap shot at Bertie. Typical FF crap thinking there's nothing more important to people than scoring points against Bertie Ahern.

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im not a FF supporter - but in any partisan political arena, it is certainly not paranoia to suggest the opposition will use anything it can to hurt the current government.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

a minority of the people of ireland said no, the government address their concerns and then asked them to reconsider.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

they addressed the concerns of the MINORITY of irish people who voted no to losing their neutrality, and managed to cut through the lies and present the case.

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This has to be beat off stiff competition for the stupidest post ever. The majority of people voted no - that's why it wasn't passed! If you're referring to the fact that less than 50% of the Irish people voted no (taking no votes into account), then a) the minority - a smaller minority - also voted yes, and b) a minority voted yes the second time around, so we should all vote again!

And while we're at it, a minority of people voted for Fianna Fáil, so let's re-run the elections until 2 million people all vote the same way. A minority of people voted for the euro - let's pull out and run the vote again.

Is the concept of democracy that alien to you?! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

This has to be beat off stiff competition for the stupidest post ever. The majority of people voted no - that's why it wasn't passed! If you're referring to the fact that less than 50% of the Irish people voted no (taking no votes into account), then a) the minority - a smaller minority - also voted yes, and b) a minority voted yes the second time around, so we should all vote again!

And while we're at it, a minority of people voted for Fianna Fáil, so let's re-run the elections until 2 million people all vote the same way. A minority of people voted for the euro - let's pull out and run the vote again.

Is the concept of democracy that alien to you?! :rolleyes:

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what's your point, well done on grasping the conecpt of multiplying fractions, or was that all you were trying to say?

In some countries which have presidential elections, if less than 50% of the electorate population vote the poll is scrapped and then re-run. I think there is merit in this idea.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

If you're referring to the fact that less than 50% of the Irish people voted no

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less than 50% voted at all. apathy is not a part of democracy.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

less than 50% voted at all. apathy is not a part of democracy.

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Poor turnout was the fault of the yes campaign as anyone else. In any election it's only a vote of those that turnout - perhaps we should have a referendum on changing the consitution so that elections are only valid if over 50% turnout?

btw Do you honestly think if it had been a yes vote for Nice with under 50% turnout we would've gone again?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

the Nice vote was hijacked by the opposition parties in this country, as cheap shots at bertie. the first was not passed because the opposition lied and said that if we voted yes, we'd become part of an EU military, when in reality, a small donation to a conceptual "rapid reaction force" which would never have been called upon (can you really see north africa or russia launching a ground assault on us without years of build up?) was all that was needed.

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The main opposition parties supported Nice both times :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Éanna

It was their own fault for not educating the people in the first place. The Nice referendum was classic EU- "here's a treaty, go on sign it, its good for you, don't bother asking whats in it, you don't need to know anything, except that its good for you" People say no, so they're treated like kids and told do it again. It was profoundly undemocratic and it is the reason I will never vote in favour of ANY European treaty again. How can you trust a body that ignores what the people say?

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It's hardly "classic EU- here's a treaty, go on sign it, its good for you, don't bother asking whats in it, you don't need to know anything, except that its good for you", Eanna, if the government of this country treat the electorate like a mushroom crop.....

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Originally Posted by patsh

It's hardly "classic EU- here's a treaty, go on sign it, its good for you, don't bother asking whats in it, you don't need to know anything, except that its good for you", Eanna, if the government of this country treat the electorate like a mushroom crop.....

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Yeah, and the electorates motto should be "If in doubt, vote No".

Most debate on the merits or otherwise of the treaty so far has been the Labour party conference debate, as mentioned enough. The Government haven't bothered their hole informing the people about it...