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Thanks Dublin 12. Very involved with the EL and also watching teams all over Europe via the net. But it seems to be a real competitive League where anyone can beat anyone. A bit like the Premier Division back home methinks :D !Quote:
Originally Posted by Dublin12
I don't know how much pride Belgians have in their own country, not much by the sound of it. You obviously have no clue about the Irish psyche to make a statement like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerrit
Supposing Brian Kerr and all the current Irish players played for one team, say Liverpool for example, I, and I am sure tens of thousands of IRELAND supporters would not walk accross the road to watch them play. However, when they put on the green of Ireland, they are representing MY country, the country I support with pride.
Gerrit my man, no doubt you mean well, but this is without doubt the most ridiculous post I have ever read on this forum.
Well to give a bit of background.
Belgium was founded in 1830. There had always been people known as Belgians but that is when they gained full Statehood. The area had been occupied by Austria for many hundred years being known as the Austrian Netherlands during the 16th and 17th centuries. The country at that time had an industrial and coal mining heartland in the South(Wallonia) which was primarily French speaking and as the Francophones were larger in number, French became the official language of the fledgling state. During the 19th Century when Europe was undergoing its Industrial revolution this region was the engine of the economy as well.With the decline of manufacturing industry in Europe during the 1970's and 1980's many of the old companies going out of business unemployment became a problem in Wallonia. Other companies were taken over by multi-national companies which closed down their European based factories in favour of cheap labour in Asia , Africa and post 1989 Eastern Europe. The economic decline of Wallonia coincided with a drop in the birth rate there and a turnaround in the balance of power between the South and North.
In the North was Flanders a predominantly agricultural and Flemish ( a dialect of Dutch) speaking area. With a smaller population than the Walloons and lacking economic muscle, they were very much seen as the junior partner in the equation from the 1830's right up to the outbreak of the Second World War. By the 1980's Flemish had achieved equal status with the French language and there were effectively two Federal government departments for everything, one Flemish speaking and One French speaking.
The Flanders region specialized in moving into the new technologies such as I.T., software production and highly specialized engineering. This saw the rise of Flanders as the economic engine within Belgium. Coinciding with that was an increase in the influence and power of the Flemish speaking population in line with their percentage of the overall population.
With the result that the Walloons feel isolated and at a disadvantage now.
Signposts in the North formerly that were in both languages have had the French painted out by language extremists. Akin to what has been seen in the West of Ireland Gaeltacht regions and North Wales the Welsh speaking stronghold of Wales.
As a political science article I read in the 1980's stated. The country is united by the Catholic religion ( both Walloons and Flemings share the faith), The Royal Family and two other factors.
The Flemings hate the jokes that their neighbours to the North the Dutch tell about them. The Walloons hate the jokes that their neighbours to the South the French tell about them. Oh and they invented Chips not the French :D
There are forces within Belgium trying to fragment the State but I personally believe that a 10,000,000 strong Federal state is a better option than two smaller ones. Besides we don't need another new country in Europe:D
I never supported Belgium and never will. I don't like the national team and the fact that my ID contains the word "Belgium" will not change the fact that I have no affection with the 11 players on the field. That is not Belgium, it's 11 men just like 11 other Belgians who are in a bowling club or playing poker in a local pub. I don't see how they represent the country, they're chosen by one man (the national coach) and not every Belgian agrees with that choise.
For christ's sake, football is no war. in a war I would support the country where I live, then I have personal matters involved. In football I support the team I like best. And it's not Belgium. I don't care if they miss the World Cup, the Belgian team doesn't interest me more than the one from Armenia or Luxembourg or so (actually I will support Luxembourg when playing Belgium, because they get more sympathy from me as small amateur team playing only for honour and pride)
I disagree 100% with the "in national teams you have no choice". You have ! Is it a law you should support some guys thinking they're official represents of the country ? Is it even a law that you should like your country ?!
And there are Belgians who support Brazil, or Italy, or Spain, or England, even arch rivals Holland. No one cares, they're big teams. I support Norway, not a big team, and then it's easy to slag on me as if it's disgusting not to support the home country. Glory hunters supporting Brazil instead of Belgium on the other hand, seem to be no problem...
Agree on the latter, and I'd say you're well informed on Belgium. Great explanation !Quote:
Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie
I think national pride is something typical for island nations. Could be wrong, but I experience chauvinism more here than in Belgium, and friends of mine from other island nations tend to have the same feelings.
Personally, I don't feel Belgian. I am Belgian administratively. At heart I am not. I do not feel Belgian and am not ashamed but also not proud of my roots. I feel myself, that's hard enough :) I do not feel affiliated to any country. Maybe that's why I cannot see the Belgian national team as a representation of my country ; I simply don't see Belgium as my country. Borders are very artificial. Plus, I have no good memories on growing up in Belgium and have a rather bad feeling about the directions Belgian society is taking. So Belgian on paper, not at heart.
I admire though that the Irish can feel so proud of their nation, maybe it is something I miss and should experience. But so far I haven't found a reason to be really proud of Belgium. Not ashamed, not proud.
No offence, but that's the biggest load of bullcrap I've ever heard. The whole culture of being a football supporter is based largely on tribalism, and that goes for clubs and nations. I was born in Limerick, why would I want to support Shelbourne for example? Born and bred in Limerick, so Limerick is my team as they are in my blood. Regarding supporting Liverpool, I've already explained why I initially supported them. I have gone over and back quite a lot to Liverpool over the years, I know it well now and have an emotional attachment to the City as well as the club. That is developed over years of supporting the team, visiting the city and getting to know people. It's not just football, I am a big Beatles fan and was also a big Space fan. I'm big into dance music as well, and for years Cream was the clubbing mecca of europe, aside from Ibiza. So I have many 'attachments' to Liverpool, not just football.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerrit
As far as your logic on supporting your national team, well the less said the better........although I think your friends are right, you're not a real Belgian because you show little pride in your country. The football culture in Belgium must be very weird......
That's like saying, 'If you had a choice of marrying Angelina Jolie or Halle Berry, which one would you choose?'. Stupid question, never going to happen, even in the most diehard of fans wildest dreams. To answer your question, I'd probably support neither. I'd have a slight leaning for Limerick but whoever would win would be a good result for me. I have supported Limerick on and off since the late 80's. Off because it got to the stage where the club was being run by cowboys, the club was a joke and I just got pi$$ed off with the whole situation, as did a couple of thousand of others. I decided to put my energy into my local club at weekends instead of wasting it following a club being run into the ground and destroyed by politics. I only started supporting the club again 4 or 5 seasons ago. On the other hand I have supported Liverpool staunchly all my life, and not from a barstool either. If I was asked to choose between the two, I couldn't to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie
Maybe you see football as tribalism, I don't. By the way, what you say is nonsense if you look at statistics: how many Juventus actually come from Turin ? How many people in Holland support one of the three big clubs instead of their home town's team ? How many people that never went to Spain do claim to be Real Madrid fans ? Many top teams in any country have fans from all over the country, within Turin only half of the people support Juventus and not Torino, with the difference that Juve has fans all over the country - people that in your theory should be supporting Padua, Parma, Bari or Brescia or whatever instead of Juve.
The club you support should be the choice of your heart. No law even insinuates that should be the home country or town or whatever.
And you immediately second that by saying you support Liverpool as well. were you born in Liverpool or did you grow up there ?? Being a fan of the Beatles or liking to make a trip to the city should in your theory not be enough to support the team. Back in Belgium I used to go to Brussels in my spare time all the time, that still doesn't make me a Brussels native, does it ?
As for the national teams: I am not representative for the average Belgian football fan to start. But you say: "you are not a true Belgian".
Correct, I never claimed I was. I am born and raised in Belgium, but was never proud of my country and do not feel Belgian in heart. So why then should I support the country's football team ?? If Norway or Ireland play Belgium tomorrow, I will be in the stadium and I won't be in the section with Belgium supporters.
By the way, supporting another country happens all the time. Even in Ireland. I spoke to many football fans here. It is a very small minority, I say that as well, but there are actually people here that do not support the Boys In Green. People that are proud of Ireland, but not of the national team. I spoke to a guy yet who absolutely dislikes them, he is not ashamed of Ireland at all but he does not like the national team. He said he cannot support a team claiming to be Ireland while people play in it that never lived in the country and only play for Ireland due to their grandparents' Irish ID. He absolutely disgusts it that a guy like Clinton Morrisson who only plays for Ireland because he's not good enough for England can make the team.
- Those are his words, not mine !! Don't shoot the messenger here -
I know a guy who moved from Germany to Ireland. But even long before his move he supported Ireland, he even went to see Germany-Ireland to support Ireland. He loves Germany as a country, but absolutely hates the national team because he doesn't agree with the way the team is run and refuses to see it as a representation of his native country.
I know a French girl who is very proud of France and of her French roots. Still, she hates the French national side and hopes they lose every game, she celebrates it every time the French side gets hammered.
I knew a guy back in school who even supported Holland, Belgium's arch rivals. He went to see Belgium vs Holland on the World Cup (!!) supporting Holland instead of his own country.
Are all those people wrong ?? No. They simply follow their heart which prefers another team (= doesn't mean they don't like their country, they just don't support their country's national team) rather than going with the flow.
There are always two visions on this. This topic sometimes comes up when the national teams have WC qualifiers and when speaking about this, I get two sorts of reactions: the ones that say you should always support the native country, and the ones that agree with me and say you should just support whoever you want. One difference: the latter respect everyone's opinions, while people who think you must support the home country are not open to other visions and use terms such as "betrayer" and "ridiculous" as if they think using some meaningless terms will prove them right.
In matters of taste and preference there are no right or wrongs, everyone has his own 'right'. To use a Manic Street Preachers quote: "this is my truth, tell me yours".
You can use any statements on 'ridiculous posts' all you want. I respect your opinion that you support the home side. Just don't expect me to do the same while my heart doesn't like the Belgian national team.
too right.horrible filthy club.probably the last club in england an irish person should followQuote:
Originally Posted by pete
as for hibs ive a bit of a soft spot for them, prefer celtic though. but im not mad about the scottish league.though when i was 13years old i was the typical "celtic are irish everyone should follow them" type. glad to say i have wisened up though
koh
i admit to changing clubs as a kid."followed" liverpool cause everyone else did.no proper reasons for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by drinkfeckarse
then i got a blackburn jersey when i was 10 cause it was either that or a sampdoria one, i didnt like david platt so go blackburn shirt instead of samp.just kinda took off "following" blackburn for a while then , just before they got good.stopped following them the year after they won the league cause i just stopped following english football.
as soon as i was old enough to realise that being a supporter does not mean wearing a replica shirt in a pub i started follwing Rovers fulltime.my dad and granda and some uncles were Rovers fans so Rovers are in the family for decades.
sums me and a couple of my mates up (Rovers and shels fans among them)Quote:
People that are proud of Ireland, but not of the national team. I spoke to a guy yet who absolutely dislikes them, he is not ashamed of Ireland at all but he does not like the national team. He said he cannot support a team claiming to be Ireland while people play in it that never lived in the country and only play for Ireland due to their grandparents' Irish ID. He absolutely disgusts it that a guy like Clinton Morrisson who only plays for Ireland because he's not good enough for England can make the team.
- Those are his words, not mine !! Don't shoot the messenger here -
Glad you mention this, Anto Eile. Proves my point immediately - not that it's so important for me to be proven right, but now I don't have to take the punches alone anymore :D
A friend of mine recently got very excited because some French player discovered he had an Irish grandparent, so he could play for Ireland. Other people I spoke to just don't like the Irish team because of this, they just don't see the Boys In Green as Irish anymore with these foreign players in it. They are proud Irishmen but that doesn't mean they have to like every single thing that represents Ireland.
For me it just comes down to feeling good. I follow the teams I feel best with. It's not Belgium, so I rather support the team I do feel good with (Norway) rather than trying to go with the flow and ignore my feelings.
I won't have time to read that until my day off next week........Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerrit
I support Inter in Italy. I have never been to Italy, I don't know any of the players personally, but if I could go to Inter's games, I wouldn't care where the hell the players came from as long as the team won. Your statements indicate, that you must have some personal connection with the players involved before supporting them on the field, particularly regarding national teams. Sorry, but that is a load of horse manure. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerrit
Clinton Morrison may not be 100% Irish, but neither were our 2 previous managers, nor were most of the players. Most Irish football fans overlook the fact that some players on the team are not 100% Irish. But, they are considered Irish under FIFA rules, so therefore they are as Irish, as someone who was born in Dublin, or Cork. Again, most fans don't care about where they play their club football, where they come from, or why. They are trying to win while representing our country in International football, and that's all that Irish fans care about.
You don't support Belgian football teams. Do you support Belgian athletes in other sports, for example, the Olympics? We all don't like things that happen to us in our country, from time to time. Does that mean we are ashamed to be Irish? Does it mean that we should turn against our country that is a part of our life? No. You can only have 1 Nationality, for better or worse.
The fact that you choose to turn against people who represent your country, be it in sport or in any area of your life, is rather sad, and I think is a disgraceful insult to decent, genuine, Belgian people.
Have been following CHELSEA since 84 am i a glory hunter?Quote:
Originally Posted by anto eile
Also been following the Republic since i was 10, so i can tell you there are plenty of people who support both teams!!
So in your opinion I am insulting Belgian people ? :eek: Am I even not a decent person because I don't like the national team of the country I was born in ??Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Same old bullocks I've heard so many times... Why do I even still react to it ? I must have too much spare time really... There are more people out there who share my point of view, seems they're just smart enough not to go into needless discussions...
Look, it goes in two directions: if you don't care that a person representing Ireland is not 100% Irish, then this indicates you still support the team because you like the team, that it's not that important to you who is on the pitch and what their backgrounds are. So then why would it even be a matter, let alone a problem, that the people that I support (Norway) are not Belgian, if background isn't that important anyway ??
That said you see it from the point of view of a person proud of his country. I am not. Belgium is not a bad place, far from that, but despite that I also feel no national pride and don't consider myself as Belgian at heart. I have a nationality administratively, in feeling I have no nationality. I have no place I feel I belong to, and I prefer to keep it that way.
As for your other question: I support some of the Belgian athletes, some not. Depends on the athlete's personality really :) An example: I have the deepest respect for Justine Henin-Hardenne, who had a dramatic youth but still faught to realise her dreams and got there, I think she's an example for anyone and gave the word 'brave' a new dimension. She is by far my favourite tennis player, and she happens to be Belgian which is a nice coincidence.
Xavier Malisse is another Belgian tennis player, and I am a fan as well. I like the man's personality and way of playing. The results are not there or were never any constant, still he has my support.
Kim Clijsters, also Belgian... I don't like her at all. I don't like her personality. Belgian or not, if she plays a foreign player that I respect, I support the girl on the other side of the net.
Really, I do not want to think in terms of nationality and support the clubs, teams or athletes my heart is with. Their nationality is not that important for me.
Compare it to music. Is every single Irishman a U2 fan ?? There's a rivality between Ireland and England, and an Irishman supporting the English team will get bad looks... Meanwhile, those guys making bad comments on him, may just as well be loyal Beatles or Oasis fans. Betraying the country yeah ?? :rolleyes:
I support whoever I like because of the players they have and their personality. That's all that matters. Just like I don't care that much about results (in that case I could have just picked Brazil, like some Belgians do) I don't care about nationality.
Also, to drop this discussions about ME not supporting the native country...
Can you please explain how not supporting the national side could possible indicate shame of your country ?? Are you only proud of your native country when you support every single representant of it, even if in heart the person leaves you indifferent ?! Talking about narrow-mindedness... Is there any reference that you have to like everything your country does, or else you're suddenly "ashamed"/"betraying"/"insulting the country and its people" ?? Big terms, but I never heard someone who could bring up a reasonable argument to back those words.
I will support Belgian athletes when I like them, like Xavier Malisse and Justine Henin-Hardenne. I will not support the ones I don't like just for the sake of them being Belgian... If you feel like supporting every sportsman who happens to be Irish, regardless if you like him or not: go ahead. It may not be betraying your native country, but it is betraying your own feelings. I rather betray the country I was born in (mind that I don't wish to use "MY country") as far as you can ever call it betrayal, rather that than betraying my own feelings.
Gerrit
I understand about Clijsters. Belgian women used to be sh*t at tennis ! :D
It's not that, it's the whole "mss happy smile" thing I don't like. Of course she goes through life with a smile, of course she feels happy all the time. She makes loads of money by practising her hobby, and whenever problems come her dad takes care of it rather than let her face them herself. I still don't get why so many Belgian people are tendered by that smile and don't see the history behind it. Sure, Henin seems more introvert and less open, she had a dramatic youth and had to fight for everything herself, she's been in the real life... Respect to her, she did it all by herself and is an example for anyone, proving you can hold on to a dream as long as you fight for it.
And sadly enough, one of them (Clijsters) is Flemish, one of them (Henin) is Walloon. Reason enough for some sports fans to make it a political thing of Flanders vs Wallony... How many times I've heard yet "I support Clijsters cause she's also Flemish..." Pathetic IMO.
I'd love to hear your definition of 100% Irish?Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost