Is this the weakest Irish team in memory?

We could easily put out a side who could compete on the international stage. Not in any way suggesting we have a team of potential world cup winners, but if we had a manager who lacked incompetence and a had a slight grasp of the modern game, while utilising properly the players available to him, we wouldn't have to think twice about beating Sweden and Austria.

Trap has his past, has had his day, lifted his trophies, and has had a wonderful career. But it's time for him to go. Pass on the proverbial baton to the newer generation.

We need a manager who gives us a completely fresh approach, starts completely from scratch, and doesn't stick with favouritism.

We also need a manager who is physically capable of watching matches week in, week out.

It was refreshing to see Trap finally watching a League of Ireland match at the weekend also, but he was only there because he happened to be in Dublin at the time. 5 years too late in my opinion.

We have good solid players, playing every week at Premier League level that are being woefully overlooked in squads and starting teams.


In short, to answer the original question posed in the thread, I believe the current squads and teams being picked is probably one of the weakest in memory.

However, it shouldn't be.

A potential 23 man squad:

Goalkeepers:
Elliot, Westwood, Bunn

Defenders:
Clark, Coleman, Dunne, Kelly, Wilson, O'Brien, S.Reid, O'Shea

Midfielders:
McGeady, McCarthy, Whelan, McClean, Hoolahan, Pilkington, Gibson, Brady,

Attackers:
Long, Walters, Keane, N. Hunt.


Only one of that squad plays outside of the Premier League (and the obvious McGeady), most of which are regular players on their respective teams. There are obvious exclusions from the squad (the doc won't be happy about one of them), but a manager has to make big decisions, and a player playing regularly at a high level has to be looked at over favouritism or people he knows better. It wouldn't happen in any other country where a player playing in the highest division gets overlooked for someone a division lower.

Out of that squad, you'd have a team something like:

Bunn

Coleman Dunne O'Shea Wilson

McGeady Gibson McCarthy McClean

Walters Long



(I know there are the likes of Bunn and Elliot, who have yet to officially declare allegiance, but even with Westwood, you have a perfectly capable Premier Division goalkeeper.)

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

So? Spurs weren't a top team. What's happened there is we had three players at a middling Premier League club who have since declined as players.

Over the past five years, the only players we've had at top teams were Keane (for one unsuccessful season), John O'Shea (important player until his legs started to go), Gibson (bit-part player) and Brady (one substitute appearance).

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That's my whole point. The pool of players we have to choose from is the weakest I've seen since I started watching the Irish team in the 80s.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

It was refreshing to see Trap finally watching a League of Ireland match at the weekend also, but he was only there because he happened to be in Dublin at the time. 5 years too late in my opinion.

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Incidentally, and I'm not being jealous or having a go at Pats, but why is it Trap only ever goes to Pats games? I remember he went to Dalyer once too and hilariously tipped Conor Powell to make the step up to international level (does he have a Belfast granny?) but apart from that I've only ever seen him at Richer.

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A potential 23 man squad:

Goalkeepers:
Elliot, Westwood, Bunn

Defenders:
Clark, Coleman, Dunne, Kelly, Wilson, O'Brien, S.Reid, O'Shea

Midfielders:
McGeady, McCarthy, Whelan, McClean, Hoolahan, Pilkington, Gibson, Brady,

Attackers:
Long, Walters, Keane, N. Hunt.


Only one of that squad plays outside of the Premier League (and the obvious McGeady), most of which are regular players on their respective teams. There are obvious exclusions from the squad (the doc won't be happy about one of them), but a manager has to make big decisions, and a player playing regularly at a high level has to be looked at over favouritism or people he knows better. It wouldn't happen in any other country where a player playing in the highest division gets overlooked for someone a division lower.

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Why do they have to be Premier League players though? The fact is that some of our Championship players are better than their Premier League equivalents, and this has been the case for a few years. We don't have such a high class of player that we can make the distinction.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Colbert Report

That's my whole point. The pool of players we have to choose from is the weakest I've seen since I started watching the Irish team in the 80s.

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And I'm saying that our players aren't playing at a lower level than they were 5 or 10 years ago, with the exception of a couple of top, top players who have succumbed to gradual decline through age and haven't yet been replaced. Our younger players (Hendrick, Brady, etc) are playing at a lower level, but increasingly the best players in England and beyond are making the grade below PL level before later making the jump. We can even look at our own 'Pilks' for evidence.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

Bunn

Coleman Dunne O'Shea Wilson

McGeady Gibson McCarthy McClean

Walters Long

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There's very little difference between that team and the team that started against the Faroes

Code:

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          Westwood
Coleman O'Dea  O'Shea  Wilson
McGeady Andrews McCarthy Brady
        Walters Keane

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

if we had a manager who lacked incompetence and a had a slight grasp of the modern game, while utilising properly the players available to him, we wouldn't have to think twice about beating Sweden and Austria.

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Sweden in particular is a very bold statement and probably Austria too - who are getting better.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

There's very little difference between that team and the team that started against the Faroes

Code:

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          Westwood
Coleman O'Dea  O'Shea  Wilson
McGeady Andrews McCarthy Brady
        Walters Keane

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eh, almost half, 5. That's quite a difference.

Westwood, odea, andrews, brady and keane out. Bunn, Dunne, Andrews, Brady and Long in. OR do you mean there isn't much difference between his 4-4-2 system and Traps Faroes 4-4-2 system ;-)

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

eh, almost half, 5. That's quite a difference.

Westwood, odea, andrews, brady and keane out. Bunn, Dunne, Andrews, Brady and Long in. OR do you mean there isn't much difference between his 4-4-2 system and Traps Faroes 4-4-2 system ;-)

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I meant in terms of talent or ability.
It's hard to compare Westwood and Bunn at the moment
I'd pick Dunne over O'Dea, although he was injured at the time and probably would have started otherwise
Brady over McClean, clearly has offered more in the last few games
Gibson over Andrews, although he was injured at the time and probably wouldn't have been in the squad anyway
It's a judgement call between Keane and Long right now

Basically, the biggest difference between the side nigel picked and the side Trapattoni sent out is Gibson

The subject is bound to be discussed in depth in the mainstream in the coming years but it's something worth touching on around the topic of the decline of the premier league and what that means for Ireland given that virtually all our players are in the English system. There's a very good reason why all the teams who have their players predominantly in the EPL have been so poor technically in recent years and all seem to be getting worse.
Our squads present and more worryingly future are tied to a sinking ship, I wonder what the FAI plans to do about that and promoting connections with the Bundesliga and La Liga. SFA probably:rolleyes:

I'd say the EPL system is more broken than the English system as a whole. I think I mentioned earlier that most of the best technical players in Britain right now are coming through the academies at lower-tier clubs.

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

The subject is bound to be discussed in depth in the mainstream in the coming years but it's something worth touching on around the topic of the decline of the premier league and what that means for Ireland given that virtually all our players are in the English system. There's a very good reason why all the teams who have their players predominantly in the EPL have been so poor technically in recent years and all seem to be getting worse.
Our squads present and more worryingly future are tied to a sinking ship, I wonder what the FAI plans to do about that and promoting connections with the Bundesliga and La Liga. SFA probably:rolleyes:

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The FAI are a joke of an organisation who couldn't organize a booze up in a brewery.

A sinking ship? Are you sure about that? I expect the Premier League to get even better with the new TV deal kicking in and more players like Suarez coming to England to make the big money. How much money would a player like Stephen Ireland be on if he was with a German team? Maybe half?

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Why do they have to be Premier League players though? The fact is that some of our Championship players are better than their Premier League equivalents, and this has been the case for a few years. We don't have such a high class of player that we can make the distinction.

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Basically pointing out that people have been saying we have so little players playing in the Premier League when in fact we could almost put out two teams of Premier League players. The fact of the matter is, playing regularly at a higher standard has to be looked at seriously.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

There's very little difference between that team and the team that started against the Faroes

Code:

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          Westwood
Coleman O'Dea  O'Shea  Wilson
McGeady Andrews McCarthy Brady
        Walters Keane

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As Paul pointed out, there's 5 differences. O'Dea being a particular weak link makes a big difference. Jurys out on Keane at this stage, but all being said and done, Long is a better option now.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Sweden in particular is a very bold statement and probably Austria too - who are getting better.

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It's a bold statement surely, but I stand by it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

I meant in terms of talent or ability.
It's hard to compare Westwood and Bunn at the moment
I'd pick Dunne over O'Dea, although he was injured at the time and probably would have started otherwise
Brady over McClean, clearly has offered more in the last few games
Gibson over Andrews, although he was injured at the time and probably wouldn't have been in the squad anyway
It's a judgement call between Keane and Long right now

Basically, the biggest difference between the side nigel picked and the side Trapattoni sent out is Gibson

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I did say it's a potential team.

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Originally Posted by Colbert Report

That's my whole point. The pool of players we have to choose from is the weakest I've seen since I started watching the Irish team in the 80s.

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But wouldn't that be in almost exact sequence with the Bosman ruling and the subsequent influx of "foreigners" into English football? And this influx has not slowed down, in fact it has increased to the point that discussion is around how it has damaged the english player pool. In other words, we can no longer expect to have high numbers of regular premiership starters, our players have been and will now be predominantly a mix of premier and championship. Our players will not be as high profile as they once were - I think it's inevitable that this happened and its not necessarily a reflection that our pool are "less talented". They're just in a pool of wider/greater talent.

In short, it's a bit of a lame debate or point to discuss. I think we have kept our talent level pretty close to what it has been in the past (with fewer exceptional players but more depth in our quality) but we will never again have a manager refuse to pick players who weren't playing regular, first team, premiership football, as was Jack Charltons mandate once upon a time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Colbert Report

The FAI are a joke of an organisation who couldn't organize a booze up in a brewery.

A sinking ship? Are you sure about that? I expect the Premier League to get even better with the new TV deal kicking in and more players like Suarez coming to England to make the big money. How much money would a player like Stephen Ireland be on if he was with a German team? Maybe half?

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Not necessarily a sinking ship financially but certainly as a major force in the European game.

It's a bit of a false premise to say more money will fix the EPL's problems, the richest clubs in Europe at the moment are the likes of Anzhi, Man City, PSG and Galatasary. None of them particularly successful at developing players. If anything clubs having less money to spend might benefit the EPL teams, being forced to develop their grassroots rather than import their entire squad. It'd be something if the Irish lads were getting to play alongside and against the best players in the world but that isn't happening either. It's becoming a bit embarrassing now with the EPL becoming a dumping ground for failed La Liga and Bundesliga talent (Cazorla, Arteta, Almunia, Holtby, Mertesacker, Podolski, Michu, Huth etc) while the likes of Goetze, Reus, Hummels, Kroos, Messi, Munian, delfouneso, alba, Draxler, Bender twins etc are streamlined on a path towards becoming the worlds best.

We've almost all our lads coming through a country with a notoriously poor youth and development system, playing with and against mediocre talent and lining their pockets at such a rate it discourages them from going somewhere else with a better footballing landscape. The leagues in Portugal, Spain, Germany, Holland and France especially continue to churn out top quality young players year after year, players who can actually compete at the highest level and master the art of complex skills such as passing a ball. It'd be so much more beneficial for us in the long run if incentives were given to young players to aim for those academies.

I don't really know how the FAI expects to fix the problem, sit around and wait/hope for the English FA to fix their problem (the same problem) and leech off the results if they work?