Skinny little rat at it again...

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Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

Jaysus mypost you are really outdoing yourself on this thread - not happy with referencing friendly defeats in the 80's (although I see they are deleted now!) when cross referencing our "tactics" over the years, - you are now telling us that Russia really was karma for that debacle in Vaduz!

If that's the type of roll Trap is on - then we should get 9 pts in our group - a 1-0 win over Croatia will merely be payback for Davor Sukur's injury time winner against us in 1999.

Our 3-0 win against Spain will be revenge for that playoff in Paris in 65'.

Our final righteous slice of retribution and a 2-1 injury time win against Italy surely is the least we deserve for Gilardino's last minute equaliser in Croker last October 2 years ago!!!!

Things will get really exciting if we get France in the quarters.......

Back to your original point btw - id hardly call 40 shots on goal against an amateur team - and the subsequent failure to score, bad luck! Horrendous finishing maybe.

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Right so, when we're on the receiving end, it's comprehensively outplayed, lucky, and when we're not, it's "horrendous finishing". Strange. Our football history is littered with ifs, buts, maybes, and heroic failures. Apparantly we don't deserve it when it's the other way round. We won't beat Spain 3-0. There'll be long periods of play when we won't have the ball, but that's what we need to do to get a result.

In any case, many of the conclusions made this week are after one friendly, not 4 years work. Liechtenstein was one example, I could use lots of others.

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Originally Posted by amaccann

It's frustrating that when we discuss the subject of Ireland's quality of football, those who suggest that perhaps we could play with a most positive mindset are almost always met with exaggerated comparisons and arguments. Quoting results under Staunton doesn't prove that Ireland can't play attacking football; it merely proves that an unqualified manager, out of his depth, in charge of a team will invariably result in awful hammerings.

We shouldn't buy into this logic that the only choice is either Trapattoni's & win, or Barcelona's and lose - that there's no such things as a middle ground to be had. Seems like we're buying into Trap's mentality that we're simply not capable of playing with any technical skill or a forceful agenda.

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It's simple really, no other coach could get a team comprising of Derby, Preston, Stoke, Sunderland, Wigan, West Brom, Wolves, and MSL players out of the last qualification group. It had to be done this way, or else it would be another summer on the sofa. He will do very well to get us out of the group in the summer against the Barcelona, Real Madrid, Milan, and Juventus elite. Even if we don't get out of the group, it's a huge achievement to get this far, considering where we were not very long ago.

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Originally Posted by mypost

It's simple really, no other coach could get a team comprising of Derby, Preston, Stoke, Sunderland, Wigan, West Brom, Wolves, and MSL players out of the last qualification group. It had to be done this way, or else it would be another summer on the sofa. He will do very well to get us out of the group in the summer against the Barcelona, Real Madrid, Milan, and Juventus elite. Even if we don't get out of the group, it's a huge achievement to get this far, considering where we were not very long ago.

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So what were the great teams that the players of Slovakia, Armenia,Macedonia and Estonia were playing for?:rolleyes:

The Sadlier article is pretty tame compared to the King Rat. In common with Dunphy though, is his repeated theme 'if we play like this against Armenia we won't qualify', 'if we play like this we will be humiliated at the Finals', presumably if we did get through the group they would conveniently forget about all the nonsense they wrote previous, park it for another time.

What Dunphy brings to the table is his 3 card trick, the same 3 card trick he has been playing since 1980.

1. Such and such a player is a fantastic kid, has been treated horribly by the manager.
2. The coach knows nothing about football and he's making grotesque mistakes.
3. The players are fantastic and could play football, if only they were let.

Amazing that this blatantly obvious con still finds a gullible audience, 'yes but Eamon is right' or 'he has a passion for the game'.
I suspect some fans are confusing lunacy with passion and censoriousness with punditry.

What difference McClean, McCarthy (or Wilson at LB) can make to our inability to hold onto possession, is beyond me.
I need that one explained.
What Ward brings is not his defensive skills but a willingness to get forward in support, regarded as a revolutionary act in our team. Wilson definitely can stroke a better pin-pointed hoof to the forwards. Wilson would do grand if we had a flying RB.

I wouldn't put Sadlier in the same camp as Dunphy. He has strong opinions on the way the game should be played but that'd make him more like Giles than the contrarian Dunphy. I'd share his exasperation that our midfielders won't get on the ball, but at the same time our tactics are so predictable that they're rarely in a position to receive the ball without a great deal of pressure being applied, and they don't really have the technical skill to work their way out of tight situations consistently.

An occasional ability would do me, just a few glimmers that we could manage to get the ball from goalie to RB to CB to CM then some movement to anticipate what happens next, instead after a bit of pressure on the CM, the ball goes back to the goalie for a hoof.

How was Trap at centre half? I suppose he had personality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb4jotQTDkc

Check out 4:27 for Trapattoni's typical poise on the ball at centre half.

Also interesting that the Italian goalkeeper Buffon, who had to be carried off unconscious, is a distant cousin of the current Italy #1.

that was a loose one from the left half back

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

So what were the great teams that the players of Slovakia, Armenia,Macedonia and Estonia were playing for?

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Playing regular football for good clubs in top leagues, many of which with significant European club experience. With respect, Derby, Preston, Sunderland, and Wolves won't be getting too much of it in the near future. Yet those players are expected to go out, and "take the game" to Italy and Spain in a couple of months. Not gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by geysir

What Dunphy brings to the table is his 3 card trick, the same 3 card trick he has been playing since 1980.

1. Such and such a player is a fantastic kid, has been treated horribly by the manager.
2. The coach knows nothing about football and he's making grotesque mistakes.
3. The players are fantastic and could play football, if only they were let.

Amazing that this blatantly obvious con still finds a gullible audience, 'yes but Eamon is right' or 'he has a passion for the game'.
I suspect some fans are confusing lunacy with passion and censoriousness with punditry.

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He still gets an audience, across, tv, radio and print media, so people want to hear from him.

In 1988, his gripe was about O'Leary. In 1990, it was Brady, in 2002 it was Keane, more recently it was the granny-gate traitor, then Reid, McCarthy, now McClean is the latest drum to bang. A player who he would have dismissed as not good enough to play for Ireland 12 months ago.

I watched his WC 2002 forecasts again last week. Amidst his colours protest, apparantly Ireland had "no chance" of getting out of the group, France were certainties to qualify from theirs, and Brazil couldn't win the World Cup. What happened?

He made sense during Staunton's time in charge. But that was the equivalent of kicking an open door. Even then, he wanted "someone in to do the job", the "best team" available, and an "organised side". We have it now, but still it isn't enough to keep him happy.

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Originally Posted by mypost

It's simple really, no other coach could get a team comprising of Derby, Preston, Stoke, Sunderland, Wigan, West Brom, Wolves, and MSL players out of the last qualification group. It had to be done this way, or else it would be another summer on the sofa. He will do very well to get us out of the group in the summer against the Barcelona, Real Madrid, Milan, and Juventus elite. Even if we don't get out of the group, it's a huge achievement to get this far, considering where we were not very long ago.

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Interesting you mention West Brom, because they're a mediocre team, punching above their weight at the moment under a manager many here had as their favorite to land the Irish job - one Roy Hodgson. I also find it funny you mention Sunderland, who under O'Neill represent the kind of football I think Ireland excel at & could flourish under.

But to be honest, claiming we wouldn't have qualified if not for our dour tactics is as academic as claiming we would have without them. We'll never know for sure either way, but it doesn't stop the legitimate claim that our tactics are sterile. Whatever positives Trap's system brings in shutting down our opponents, it's what we do when we have the ball that frustrates.

I still think we're going to do quite well in the Euros, but I believe it'll be despite Trap's system, not because of it. That we'll just go out there and play with verve ala Paris.

Would it not be fair to say that our 2002 players were not at big clubs either yet managed to play decent football and put it up to eventual finalists Germany and a good Spanish team?

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Check out 4:27 for Trapattoni's typical poise on the ball at centre half.

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:D

Interesting that 2 of our managers were playing that day and we had slow motion replays before photographers had telephoto lens.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Playing regular football for good clubs in top leagues, many of which with significant European club experience. With respect, Derby, Preston, Sunderland, and Wolves won't be getting too much of it in the near future. Yet those players are expected to go out, and "take the game" to Italy and Spain in a couple of months. Not gonna happen.

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Apart from the guy that plays with Napoli, who are you talking about, really? The odd token player here or there.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Also interesting that the Italian goalkeeper Buffon, who had to be carried off unconscious, is a distant cousin of the current Italy #1.

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A bunch of Buffoons?

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

Apart from the guy that plays with Napoli, who are you talking about, really? The odd token player here or there.

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http://foot.ie/threads/156456-Most-d...=1#post1530667

There's more than the "odd token player" there.

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Originally Posted by mypost

http://foot.ie/threads/156456-Most-d...=1#post1530667

There's more than the "odd token player" there.

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Yet you cant name them,lol

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

So what were the great teams that the players of Slovakia, Armenia,Macedonia and Estonia were playing for?:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by mypost

Playing regular football for good clubs in top leagues, many of which with significant European club experience. With respect, Derby, Preston, Sunderland, and Wolves won't be getting too much of it in the near future.

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Ah come off it - are you seriously trying to tell me that Armenia, Macedonia and Estonia have players that play regular football in top leagues with significant European experience ?? ? Slovakia fair enough have a good side on paper - but for every Weiss, Stoch and Hamsik they have we have plenty top players like Given, Dunne, O'Shea and Duff who should have been more than capable of dictating play much better than we did at home to the aforementioned Slovakians.

I mean if Armenia - with their talented array of top footballers, can beat Slovakia, and all that significant European experience, 7-1 over 2 games - surely we can keep the ball for an extended period of time against the same opposition?

I doubt very much that we will be embarrassed at the euros but if we can't pass and keep the ball to some degree, at home against the likes of Slovakia or even in a friendly against the Czech Republic , then we have very little chance against Croatia, Italy and Spain, come the summer.

The only glimmer of light I have; is the last time this team had their backs against the wall they actually came out and played - and that was Paris. Since then we have done well to beat teams of inferior ability to us, draw twice with Slovakia who I thought were similarly limited going forward to us and struggle big time against a top side like Russia - we play 3 top sides in the summer - the only logical conclusion you can draw from past performances is that we will struggle in each game come the summer.

I wouldn't necessarily say we struggled against either Italy or France in the four competitive games we played against them under Trap. Wouldn't they be considered top sides? In Bari, we could have come back with all three points. As it turned out, we got a very much deserved point after what was a very inspiring performance from the team, especially Robbie. When Italy came to Dublin, we'd have had the three points in the bag were it not for St. Ledger's goal giving John O'Shea an inexplicable stoppage-time rush of blood to the head. When France came to Dublin for the play-off, we lost to an optimistic Anelka effort that deflected horribly off St. Ledger. In the return leg, we beat France 1-0 within 90 minutes of normal play. There's no need to remind anyone about how we went down in extra-time.

Just on this "top sides" thing, does the old "we haven't beaten a top side competitively for a decade" give a fair representation of where we are? Is it a fair yardstick by which to measure an international team? I'm not so sure it is. I think it's overly simplistic. How many other teams ranked similarly to us regularly beat higher-ranked opposition, for example? The higher-ranked you are yourself, of course, the harder it will be to beat such opposition; they will be harder to come by and will be relatively stronger. How many competitive games have we actually played against higher-ranked opposition since Holland in 2001?

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I wouldn't necessarily say we struggled against either Italy or France in the four competitive games we played against them under Trap. Wouldn't they be considered top sides? In Bari, we could have come back with all three points. As it turned out, we got a very much deserved point after what was a very inspiring performance from the team, especially Robbie. When Italy came to Dublin, we'd have had the three points in the bag were it not for St. Ledger's goal giving John O'Shea an inexplicable stoppage-time rush of blood to the head. When France came to Dublin for the play-off, we lost to an optimistic Anelka effort that deflected horribly off St. Ledger. In the return leg, we beat France 1-0 within 90 minutes of normal play. There's no need to remind anyone about how we went down in extra-time.

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Did you not watch that World Cup? Italy and France were pretty woeful, before n after

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Originally Posted by mypost

He still gets an audience, across, tv, radio and print media, so people want to hear from him.

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People don't have much of a choice to be honest

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

Did you not watch that World Cup? Italy and France were pretty woeful, before n after

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So are Russia the only "top side" we've played against competitively under Trap then? We managed a point against them away; a nerve-wracking one, sure, but a point nonetheless. Our home performance against them started with promise - I recall McGeady, especially, starting well - before our early collapse, but we were quite close to a comeback in that game, eventually losing to just a goal after having been three down. That shows spirit at least and I don't think these two games can necessarily be used to write off our Euros chances before we even get to Poland. A larger sample "area" would be required to give a more reliable prediction of how we can expect our games against "top sides" to go. Anyway, if Italy are indeed as woeful as you claim, that's three points in the bag already. ;)