Does the success of one team in Europe benefit the league as a whole?

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Your recent post says something entirely different to the original post i quoted. Its still pie in the sky stuff. What hope do we have of people watching on TV if they wont come to the grounds. Getting people through the gates is our first challenge and will lead to the rest. To reverse it like you suggest is totally unachievable in the short term and certainly not advantageous to the league as a whole when it occurs temporarily because one team has been a success.

So do you think that Irish fans of PL clubs etc, first went to the ground to see "their" team play? Do you think irish people go to see wrestilng? OR go to boxing matches? No but if there is a big fight on or whatever they are all interested.

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I wasn't trying to compare myself to you, i said you dont go to LOI games, which you dont.

I agree that the priority should be getting fans to the ground. This is not necessarily done in the traditional sense. When do you think for example Munster "fans" started going to their games? Do you think all of them went to their games and then more just joined the wagon when they started winning things and there were no tickets left? No they watched on TV first and got an interest through that, now loads of people attend Munster matches.

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Originally Posted by harleyleeds

Paul are you in Mayo or is your location just BS and if so why dont you support either Rovers or GUFC? This is not a wind up question but really dont understand why.

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Im not in Mayo or Ireland harleyleeds. I never had a club growing up but when I moved to Dublin I lived in Cabra park and went to a fair bohs games a season. I went to all of shels/bohs when they were in Europe with a few other non LOI supporting lads too. I don't have any affiliation to any club though(which is the easy stick taht gets round-robined to beat me with when things are said that people dont like - rather than attack the post, shoot down the credibility of the poster.).

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Originally Posted by SkStu

What we should be doing is selling our best players for a fair price to our neighbours across the sea. That is where we can really make money as Legendz above alludes to in reference to McLean. We just havent developed the structure in the clubs yet and the FAI either dont recognise or else dont support the concept.
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This is the type of madness, malaise and bad business that has seen the LOI fail to blossom.

In Sligo, for example, one of the best LOI players, ie Seamie Coleman, went for buttons. Everton and Celtic offered ridiculously insulting money -- but a derisory figure was accepted for a variety of reasons. So big cash payouts from UK are a faint hope presently.

Even looking at the best young players, look at Conor Powell couldn't even hack it with Colchester! No doubt he just signed up with Sligo Rovers hoping that Cook will be in England next year and he might get a chance to re-launch his English career. That's football.

Personally, I hope all the LOI teams go through, rising tide etc. The league is currently the most competitive it has been for years, with Sligo, Shams, Derry, Pats and Bohs, even Dundalk in with a shout. Even Drogheda can put it up to any team in the league.

The standard across the board is way up -- if Shams get into the CL group stage, good for them. Even, if they did, they're is so little between all the top Irish sides that what is to stop another of the top six/seven Irish sides doing next year what Shams are doing now?

Watched second half of Shams v FC Cop -- but for bluntness up front they were well able to match the Danes. I hope Shams get through and obviously Sligo is my first priority. Each club has to learn to manage its affairs, but a Euro breakthrough is vital for the LOI both at home, but also with a view getting a decent price for top quality that leaves.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It's what's happened in other leagues, like Norway.

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I always thought that some sponsor of the Norwegian league pumped in loads of cash into raising the standards, part of which was rebranding as their version of the Premier League.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Im not in Mayo or Ireland harleyleeds. I never had a club growing up but when I moved to Dublin I lived in Cabra park and went to a fair bohs games a season. I went to all of shels/bohs when they were in Europe with a few other non LOI supporting lads too. I don't have any affiliation to any club though(which is the easy stick taht gets round-robined to beat me with when things are said that people dont like - rather than attack the post, shoot down the credibility of the poster.).

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Yep I see your point but why would you not pick Bohs seeing as they were your first team? I realise that its not easy for me to understand what it would be like not to have a team from childhood but when I came over here I first was in Cleveland and started to follow the BROWNS (fanatical fans, dog pound) and when I moved to NY I still stayed with them.

Do you like my cousin lebron?

Ya i always sorta have but i can't just jump on the bandwagon like that.its something i personally have to feel emotionally attached to from a yoing age...besides phibsboro is a hole and i never felt too comfortable there!

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Ya i always sorta have but i can't just jump on the bandwagon like that.its something i personally have to feel emotionally attached to from a yoing age...besides phibsboro is a hole and i never felt too comfortable there!

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Firstly bandwagon jumping is following someone cos there winning,second wasnt suggesting u move there and thankfully I hate basketball .

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

So do you think that Irish fans of PL clubs etc, first went to the ground to see "their" team play? Do you think irish people go to see wrestilng? OR go to boxing matches? No but if there is a big fight on or whatever they are all interested.

I agree that the priority should be getting fans to the ground. This is not necessarily done in the traditional sense. When do you think for example Munster "fans" started going to their games? Do you think all of them went to their games and then more just joined the wagon when they started winning things and there were no tickets left? No they watched on TV first and got an interest through that, now loads of people attend Munster matches.

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you keep trying to compare the league with something that it is not or that it cannot compete with. The League or the popularity of the league is an anomaly in a global sense. You cant pigeon-hole it into a particular structure that was successful in another location or sport. Anyone close to the League would acknowledge this. Very few Irish sports fans have the patience for a 30 something game league. Short sharp bursts of entertainment are what is required to capture the attention of the ADD sports fans of Ireland. Football League v. All-Ireland. League Football vs. International calendar. Heineken League vs. Magners League.

I gurantee you this - any benefit that clubs would see from European success of another club would be, at best, incremental and temporary. Any benefit that "the club that makes the breakthrough" will see will be substantial but temporary. The goodwill will end when the particular journey ends and things will revert to norm until the next season. That is the result of success in an Irish context. The result of QUALIFICATION is slightly different but the end result for the Longford Towns etc is going to be pretty much the same - incremental and temporary. "The club that makes the breakthrough" will enjoy a dominance for a long period of time littered with additional qualifications or near misses. The near misses may prove costly in the eyes of the fickle public. Maybe, over time, the rest will catch up but when you look at the history and administration of Irish football i dont see that as a definite.

Success benefits the club that is successful. It doesnt guarantee any success for the other clubs.

Pineapple - i started this discussion in the other thread. I know what i intended when i started it. That other posters may have taken it a step further has no bearing on my ability to debate the debate that i started. Either way, nobody has qualified. To date, Shels have had the most "successful" run in Irish football. That is my starting point for any assumptions.

By the reckoning of some we can borrow the line (I think Arrigo Sacchi) that you don't have to have been a horse to be a jockey. The more that's discussed and written about the LOI the better, get it up there to rival the sky leagues and we're getting somewhere. The victimization thing has been done to death by LOI followers, about time we just got on with it and realised that we'll never get the same love we give to our clubs as we give to them.

On the topic of Rosenborg, yes Shels quoted it, often, however it was the same nonsense spouted by many other clubs in smaller leagues who financially cheated their way forward. At the same time as Shels were on a run in 2004, Ollie was borrowing from friends an dnot paying bills in order to survive week to week. It was a quick fix deal and never had a concrete base. Rosenborg began at the bottom, developed their player and youth structures, and used government initiatives and sponsors to develop gradually. We've got our heads so far up sky league clubs wholes that we want to sprint before we can crawl.

An Irish club making the group stages of the CL or EL would boost the league as a whole, make it more attractive and you'd find benefactors coming out of the woodwork (like hungry worms) wanting a piece of the action. It's then up to the FAI to regulate and clubs and club comm's to behave sensibly and do it the right way. Then again, this is Ireland we're talking about, the land of a 1,000 ghost estates and zombie hotels. A 20,000 all seater stadium would be demanded and gotten by MHR for Legendz and a few others to cheer in :-)

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Originally Posted by harleyleeds

Firstly bandwagon jumping is following someone cos there winning,second wasnt suggesting u move there and thankfully I hate basketball .

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I know your latter two questions, my point was that I never felt like it was home or any affinity in the 5 years i was there. Therefore I didnt really feel like Bohs was my club. I did like to see them winning and enjoyed it,and keep/kept out for their results, but its pretty much like I do for Man united and always have done. But i don't have that feeling like the club is mine like skstu and all those try to drive home when they are feeling a tad insecure.:D

Sorry about lebron but anyone(and everyone) in cleveland hates him, bball fans or not.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

you keep trying to compare the league with something that it is not or that it cannot compete with. The League or the popularity of the league is an anomaly in a global sense. You cant pigeon-hole it into a particular structure that was successful in another location or sport. Anyone close to the League would acknowledge this. Very few Irish sports fans have the patience for a 30 something game league. Short sharp bursts of entertainment are what is required to capture the attention of the ADD sports fans of Ireland. Football League v. All-Ireland. League Football vs. International calendar. Heineken League vs. Magners League.

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You are playing the victim here again. YOu act like you are in a complete bubble that no one knows what happens inside of, that is completely removed from anything else in the world. OPen your eyes stu, you appear an articulate and intelligent person so don't try and play off like its any different. Do you think all the munster fans go to ML games? NO they don't they go to the big games against Leinster or the odd bigger game against Cardiff/Llanneli whoever. For years they were getting average attendances of c1000 for home games. Does it matter if they sell out every game? No, it doesn't. Would it matter if every home game sold out for LOI clubs? No it wouldn't. LIke any "product" Irish fans will flock to it if they believe they are seeing top quality sport(IF they go see the likes of Rogers shipping 2 simple goals like tonight they might not be back) or perhaps "entertainment" on their doorstep. Playing against teams who compete in Europe or playing against European teams will provide this. Just like it has in rugby. Now what I would say is from a sustainability or perhaps those that could truly compete - and hope of winning some silverware- would be at most 4/5 clubs every season and probably spread geographically - perhaps Cork/Sligo/Derry/2 from Dublin(at any time id say so it could be 2 of pats/rovers/bohs all teams who already have a decent following) the rest would just be making up the numbers. But geographically you have the base to sustain this at a decent level, assuming European group stages was made every year. Just do the maths on even 8 games a season packed out at home. That in itself would be a very welcome addition to any budget. And that just one side of it - nevermind any commercial sponsorship/add revenue, some tv revenue etc.

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I gurantee you this - any benefit that clubs would see from European success of another club would be, at best, incremental and temporary. Any benefit that "the club that makes the breakthrough" will see will be substantial but temporary. The goodwill will end when the particular journey ends and things will revert to norm until the next season. That is the result of success in an Irish context. The result of QUALIFICATION is slightly different but the end result for the Longford Towns etc is going to be pretty much the same - incremental and temporary. "The club that makes the breakthrough" will enjoy a dominance for a long period of time littered with additional qualifications or near misses. The near misses may prove costly in the eyes of the fickle public. Maybe, over time, the rest will catch up but when you look at the history and administration of Irish football i dont see that as a definite.

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I don't disagree that to someone like Longford Town is going to have very little effect. I honestly don't think demographically that Longford Town could ever hope to be anything other than a 1st division club, as they are now.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

I know your latter two questions, my point was that I never felt like it was home or any affinity in the 5 years i was there. Therefore I didnt really feel like Bohs was my club. I did like to see them winning and enjoyed it,and keep/kept out for their results, but its pretty much like I do for Man united and always have done. But i don't have that feeling like the club is mine like skstu and all those try to drive home when they are feeling a tad insecure.:D

Sorry about lebron but anyone(and everyone) in cleveland hates him, bball fans or not.

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yep hes a sellout like the ravens but honestly only basketball fans care.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

On the topic of Rosenborg, yes Shels quoted it, often, however it was the same nonsense spouted by many other clubs in smaller leagues who financially cheated their way forward.

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Shels did not cheat. They may have sold out their future and lost their hold on their ground, which was mental, but they did not cheat- it was their decision to make. Since then they've paid their debts and have struggled to recover. Yes, they played a role in the wage inflation that damaged the league and made a lot of awful decisions, but calling them cheats is unfair in my opinion.

Mr A, while I understand your version of cheating (same as mine I guess), they did cheat. They cheated the club faithful by pouring money into chasing glory in a haphazard way, without having a firm base and structure underneath. They cheated themselves more than anything else by having zero administration and everything being done by one man and a few hangers on. Ollie cheated by not doing the sensible thing and putting in place a strong administration to ensure that money coming in went where it should and that any extra cash investments were a) honoured, or b) organised.

That's not cheating. It's stupidity but in no way was it cheating.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

That's not cheating. It's stupidity but in no way was it cheating.

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How far removed is cheating from stupidity? I'll make a single athlete comparison. In order to get better an athlete soups up with drugs thinking that "well, everyone else is doing it, why don't I." Is that cheating or being stupid? It's both. Shels (or rather Ollie and his cheerleaders) tried to shortcut their way to success and not do it in a way that would have anything other than a disastrous ending. The cheating was inherent - the old biscuit tin anyone? I saw it first hand and it was sad as while the fans turned out and cheered, underneath the stand there was an ever deepening abyss waiting to swallow the club once Ollie left.

European football can increase the profile of some clubs and also reflect well on the league, enhancing it's stock. Shels are being used as a reference for a successful club that did nothing for the league. Fair play to them for having a good run in the summer of '04. It wasn't a sustained success however, more a one hit wonder.
Someone involved in marketing might be better placed to discuss this but I would think the league would need at least 6 weeks of sustained high coverage to get more people to sit up, take notice and buy into what the league is about. I don't think group stages are on the horizon yet. They are something that could provide the sustained coverage needed. At this present time and for the next one to two years a club or two getting to the play-off stages is the least required.
In terms of having people supporting their local or nearest club, for kids to get behind a club at a young age there'd want to be a club nearby who's games they can go to. I'd imagine the second way if there is not a club in the region is for the game being shown on TV and that interest is taken up that way.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

Mr A, while I understand your version of cheating (same as mine I guess), they did cheat. They cheated the club faithful by pouring money into chasing glory in a haphazard way, without having a firm base and structure underneath. They cheated themselves more than anything else by having zero administration and everything being done by one man and a few hangers on. Ollie cheated by not doing the sensible thing and putting in place a strong administration to ensure that money coming in went where it should and that any extra cash investments were a) honoured, or b) organised.

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Wow ! football team risks all for success - would never happen anywhere else :rolleyes: Shels sold their ground and misused the proceeds, silly probobly, maybe even crazy but not cheating however much certain people want to rant about it.

So,in summary, a team qualifying for the group stages is going to (1) increase TV revenue (2) heighten the profile of the LOI (3) increase transfer fees for players in LOI.
(1) as with much beloved EPL model any increased revenue would gravitate towards one/two teams thus making LOI less competitive. Unlikely to see any tiered approach (as with EPL) here
(2) Would heightening the profile of LOI really generate so much more sponsorship etc ? far from convinced where it would come from in current climate,but again would focus on one/two clubs.
(3) some possibility in this although LOI clubs often sell cheaply because of financial constraints and other factors,none of which would be addressed by one team having success.

Success of Munster rugby was a combination of factors - setting up professional League etc - and certainly not just down to the fact that they were on TV more. Again Shels had a large crowd at Lansdowne (Deportivo) yet a week later were back to the more meagre pickings for a LOI game. Simialrly the Norway "success" (in my very limited knowledge of the subject) was part of a bigger development than just Rosenborg.

There's a difference between cheating the rules and cheating people. Clearly Spud is using the latter meaning, and arguing against the former meaning is a bit silly.