well diffricult ;)
Printable View
well diffricult ;)
FFS! I meant switching from one international football team to another - but you knew that, didn't you...Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Indeed, and since the "Maik Taylor loophole" was closed, every single one of them has had at least one parent or grandparent who was born within the territory of the IFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I have seen no evidence that George has a parent/g'parent who was born within the territory of the FAI.
I see. You don't like or agree with someones opinion and it is inconvenient for your own argument, so it's not "worth" anything, then?Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Does that mean I am not allowed an opinion on this topic, either? Or is "freedom of choice" (NI-born Celtic footballers) somehow different from "freedom of opinion" (NI-born ex-Celtic footballers)?
Nowhere have I argued that George must follow Rogan's example. Rather, I pointed to Rogan to rebut the argument which is gaining currency that it is in some way "natural" for NI-born youngsters from a Nationalist background to play for ROI.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
In every other part of the world, the natural choice is to represent the country of ones birth, unless choosing to represent some other country. Fair enough, George is permitted by FIFA to make such a choice, even though the basis for that choice has no parallel anywhere else in world football, so it must be accepted.
Nonetheless when someone like him claims that it feels "natural", that claim is unsustainable (imo). Rather, I would argue that he is making a conscious choice, on essentially politically motivated grounds, which I feel to be contrary to the spirit of sport, since politics should be excluded wherever possible.
Moreover, it is unhelpful in practice to the overall situation in NI, where we should be trying to bring people together, not segregating them (imo).
No-one should be denied the right to play international football if good enough, but in George's case, the IFA is according him that opportunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I just believe that everyone should have the right to play on the same basis, namely, if not born within the territory of the international Association one wishes to represent, one should be able to point to a parent or grandparent who was (or at least have resided within that territory for a qualifying period).
NI is the only part of the world where that principle does not apply, the FAI is the only Association which may exploit this exception and the IFA is the only Association which suffers by it.
It is you who is introducing such arguments (bold) to this thread not I, so it is your Straw Man, not mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Preventing someone from playing for one team is not the same as forcing them to play for another. The IFA attempted to do the former, in protection of its own interests, as every other Association will do when it feels its interests are being unfairly infringed.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
And in any case, the latter is impossible - or haven't you heard eg of Stephen Ireland?
(Btw, you refer to "Irish fans". I would remind you that I am every bit as Irish as you, seeing as how I was born in Ireland - a fortuitous matter of "nature", rather than choice. Moreover, having grandparents from Tipperary and Leitrim, I should be in principle more entitled to represent the ROI than George, or maybe even you...)
I accept that FIFA accords George et al that choice, just as I accept eg that it rains a lot in Ireland. That doesn't mean I have to like it, or wouldn't change it, had I some way of doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
P.S. I like your closing line; when someone from "your" side (eg Rogan) argues something inconvenient, it must be worthless and when someone from "your" side (eg Aidinho) argues something highly embarrassing, they mustn't really be from "your" side at all. You know, such debating tactics really don't do your credibility any good...
Ireland?Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
I am not denying that.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
Oh, I dunno about that. Plenty of people on this forum alone have cared enough to comment on them. Including you.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
Something I trust you'll bear in mind the next time you are in dispute with eg a traffic warden...Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
So we can safely close half the threads on this forum, then. At least.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
My "problem" is that you seemed to be attempting to discredit the man, not his argument, it's just that you weren't so subtle as I suspect you intended to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
I don't consider it "controversial", either, but that is not the same as saying it is not newsworthy, at least on a "Man Bites Dog" basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
That is, when eg Nigel Worthington asserts that "If you are born in NI, you should play for NI", his detractors queue up to point out that "He would say that, wouldn't he" (sometimes with barely concealed implications that he is bigoted etc for saying so).
However, when someone like Anton Rogan says it, it is rather different. After all, it is hard to label someone as being "West Brit" when they are, in fact, West Belfast...
Rogan is sufficiently well-informed to know, for example, that other contemporary Celtic players such as McGinn and McCourt invariably get a warm reception from the NI fans. I know that since he mentioned it in the Lost Bhoys podcast - perhaps you missed that bit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
And btw, it is not strictly true to say he has "no interest" in the game, since he pointed out that he still plays occasionally, helps out with his kids team, keeps in touch with some of his old teammates and will watch occasionally football when it is on the TV (even if he doesn't sit down specifically to watch it).
I never claimed that fans booing one of their own players for being crap etc is the same as booing him for having a certain background etc. I merely alluded to it to show that he was professional in the face of one type of criticism, just as he was professional in the face of another type.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
Nor did I claim that "10%" of the Celtic fans slagged him, just a "minority". And I learned that from my two Scottish mates at the time, one of them a Glaswegian Celt, who both followed the domestic game avidly.
The BT "interview" did not include one direct question from McKinley to Rogan. Nor did it include anything that was not in the LB podcast. Rather, everything that was in the BT was also in the podcast, verbatim. And if you re-read the BT's piece, you will see that McKinley does allude to the podcast, though so obliquely that he must have been hoping that no-one would notice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
Therefore it is clear that McKinley never actually interviewed Rogan, but instead nicked a portion of the podcast and implicitly reproduced it in the paper as his own.
There you go again. Even if he had spent 5 minutes on the phone to a provincial paper like the BT, after giving an interview to a barely-known, highly specialist radio podcast like Lost Bhoys, that would hardly constitute "the media circuit", would it? I mean to say, he's hardly eg Stephen Fry, is he?Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
You got that one right, anyhow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
In fact, I thought it hilarious when the interviewer finally brought him round to the subject of NI, that Anton did not give the "politically correct" reply that the interviewer clearly expected! This was especially so considering that having slagged off NI in a previous podcast, the (Belfast-born) interviewer had gone to a great deal of trouble to track down Anton for this interview.
"And if. You know. Your history. It's enough to make your heart - WHAT THE FCUK WAS THAT YOU SAID?"
Is that argument gaining currency? I'm not sure. Regardless I don't think that's the actual argument here. It's not about what's 'natural', but about players 'naturally' having the ability to choose in a situation which is unique, but perfectly legitimate, in world football. An ability which the IFA unsuccessfully, and embarrassedly, attempted to close.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
If Rogan or McCourt or McGinn or George or Gibson or whoever make their choice, then fair play to them. I'm very happy they've all had the option.
I don't see the point in opening a new thread everytime a player from the north decides to play for Ireland, I know of another 3 or 4 lads (presuming they are deemed good enough to play for Ireland). No point in clogging up the Ireland section with individual threads because its going to become a regular occurance.
The lad is merely switching Associations - not switching Nationality.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Out of interest who are the others?Quote:
Originally Posted by co. down green
It would make sense to have one thread for all this as it looks like it could be a very regular occurance from now on. :cool2:
Nope, you've got that wrong Im afraid. Not quite the super sleuth you think you are. I've already said I was not trying to discredit anything. Take me at face value or dont, thats your perogative.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I don't recall Rogan mentioning the 'warm' reception that McGinn and McCourt get but thats not to say he didnt, more that my memory isnt that great.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Just had another quick listen to that section there, words along the lines of "Things have changed now...........", and with regards to McGinn and McCourt "....you dont see them coming on and getting booed do ya" or something to that effect.
Not strictly true, no. Perhaps I should have said "very little interest" how would that suit you? splitting hairs I think. I did mention his kids team and watching the odd game on tv.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Good, glad we are clear that they are very different issues and Rogans professionalism has very little, if anything to do with this debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
My mistake I intertwined '10%' and 'minority' how misleading of me. Splitting hairs? oh I see a theme developing......
Rogan's playing days were well before I started attending games, so not sure what level of negative support/abuse/derision he got. He seems to have cult status reading various celtic message boards but absence makes the heart grow fonder they say! Rogan never mentioned any negative feelings towards him from the Celtic support in the interview but it was never raised as a subject by the interviewer either.
Yep, geysir cleared that one up for me. Thought you were having a dig at the excellent Lostbhoys interview but in fact it was a dig at BT - fair dos.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Apologies, should have inserted appropriate smilie. I really didnt think it was necessary though.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Yes, the interviewer has his own views on NI from the 1 or 2 matches he attended as a youngster (though his memories of 'fear for his safety' was hardly hilarious?). He was obviously taken aback by Rogans position on the subject, all adding to the quality of the interview imo. i.e Anton did not go with the flow.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Sorry? Is that meant for me?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Thats probably enough long winded, pretty tedious posts which have basically gone way off topic. Either I am very poor at articulating a few simple observations (very possible) or you are a very sensitive soul.
Over and out......
Go easy Junior, you'll exhaust yourself. Just how long can you keep this pace going?
I have no objection to threads being started on all eligible players, but I understand what you mean. Would you be in favour of one thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by co. down green
As I suspect you well know, George does not require a parent of grandparent to be born in jurisdiction of the FAI. Do you have a point here?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I don't feel that the 'argument' you intend to rebut is somehow 'gaining currency' - I think it's a fair assumption though. Surely you can appreciate that it is likely that a NI youth from a nationalist background, who has grown up supporting Ireland in a sporting sphere, will be naturally inclined to want to play for the same, without it being motivated on purely political grounds?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
One could quite easily say that having two teams on the island is unhelpful in practice, because we should be trying to bring people together and not segregating them - but I know that's a topic you don't particularly enjoy. In my opinion, there exists a socio-political reality in Ireland and it won't be affected that much by football players opting to stay with or leave the IFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
...but players do have the right to play on the same basis. They're all subject to FIFA's statutes, without exception.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
And here's me thinking that after the whole drama that the IFA and its fans caused over the issue and the subsequent closure provided by the outcome of the CAS case, you'd have let it go.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Never trust a man with two first names.
Hard to know what you mean sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Good for them.Quote:
Indeed, and since the "Maik Taylor loophole" was closed, every single one of them has had at least one parent or grandparent who was born within the territory of the IFA.
Besides, I wasn't referring to the "Maik Taylor loophole". I have no problem with Maik Taylor playing for NI. Maybe it seems a bit odd to some, but he qualified perfectly legitimately under the rules as they were at the time. Having at least one parent/grandparent born within the territory of the IFA is a different thing altogether from Rogan's ideal, however. Rogan is promoting the idea of playing where one is born themselves; not where one's parent/grandparent is born. Judging by his words, it would surely follow that he wishes to see a NI team of northern-born players only.
Why would you be looking for evidence that George has a parent/grandparent who was born within the Irish state anyway? Surely, by now, you know that that is totally irrelevent. For how many years have you been trotting this misguided spiel out now? George doesn't require a southern-born parent/grandparent to validate his eligibility for us; he is every bit as entitled to play for us as you are with your Leitrim and Tipperary ancestry. ;)Quote:
I have seen no evidence that George has a parent/g'parent who was born within the territory of the FAI.
It's not inconvenient for my argument. He merely offered an (ignorant, ill-informed and naïve) opinion, or wish of his own; not really a detailed argument for anything in particular. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's not like I was trying to censor him. :confused: I'm equally entitled to dismiss his opinion if I so wish. It's not that it's not worth anything because I happen to disagree with him; I just don't think what he says warrants any real sense of serious consideration because he clearly hasn't a clue what he is talking about and doesn't really offer much in the way of a convincing argument. I don't have to take everything everyone says seriously just because I believe in freedom of speech and opinion. The sole reason you stuck the link up was to provoke a reaction to what you clearly see as Rogan going against some grain within the nationalist community/Irish fans that you have imagined in your head; that being that there is a supposed expectation there that northern-born nationalists should declare for Ireland. Just because a nationalist from west Belfast believes northern-born Irish nationals should play for NI because he was willing to do so himself, doesn't mean people and other nationalists are going to or should reconsider all of a sudden and assume they'd been wrong all along. Likewise, just because he's a nationalist who used to play for Celtic and you have a myopic world view doesn't mean I owe his opinion any greater credit than the next person's.Quote:
I see. You don't like or agree with someones opinion and it is inconvenient for your own argument, so it's not "worth" anything, then?
Does that mean I am not allowed an opinion on this topic, either? Or is "freedom of choice" (NI-born Celtic footballers) somehow different from "freedom of opinion" (NI-born ex-Celtic footballers)?
Either way, the thing is that opinions such as Rogan's here aren't really all that important in the grand scheme of things seeing as he can't do anything to influence the rule-makers at FIFA. You posted it because you obviously viewed it as being in some way significant. Rogan is in no position to be telling anyone how to make their personal decisions in life. Nor are you or I.
Is it not perfectly natural for northern-born Irish nationals to represent Ireland though? I would have thought it was entirely so. Of course, two can play your game; in every other part of the world, the natural choice is also to represent the country of one's nationality.Quote:
Nowhere have I argued that George must follow Rogan's example. Rather, I pointed to Rogan to rebut the argument which is gaining currency that it is in some way "natural" for NI-born youngsters from a Nationalist background to play for ROI.
In every other part of the world, the natural choice is to represent the country of ones birth, unless choosing to represent some other country. Fair enough, George is permitted by FIFA to make such a choice, even though the basis for that choice has no parallel anywhere else in world football, so it must be accepted.
A conscious choice certainly, but it's a bit rich to sinisterly downgrade it as politically-motivated, as if it's a decision guided by sectarian undertones or something. He's merely expressing his national identity by exercising his right to represent his country if good enough for selection, just as a unionist (or a nationalist, if he wished to exercise his right to British nationality) would in deciding to play for NI despite having the option to play for Ireland. Is that a politically-motivated decision too? You can't force people to do something they clearly don't want to do and I'd argue that a positive method of aiding good relations in the north would be for the unionist community to acknowledge and wholeheartedly accept the Irish national identity espoused by those in the nationalist community who wish to embrace it. You seem keen to make that a taboo issue, however, as if there is something malign, bigoted or sectarian in a nationalist embracing Irish identity.Quote:
Nonetheless when someone like him claims that it feels "natural", that claim is unsustainable (imo). Rather, I would argue that he is making a conscious choice, on essentially politically motivated grounds, which I feel to be contrary to the spirit of sport, since politics should be excluded wherever possible.
Moreover, it is unhelpful in practice to the overall situation in NI, where we should be trying to bring people together, not segregating them (imo).
Or what Predator says; why not just join us and we can all be one big happy family if a true sense of togetherness is what you really want? ;)
This again? It's been discussed to death. Get a new record.Quote:
No-one should be denied the right to play international football if good enough, but in George's case, the IFA is according him that opportunity.
I just believe that everyone should have the right to play on the same basis, namely, if not born within the territory of the international Association one wishes to represent, one should be able to point to a parent or grandparent who was (or at least have resided within that territory for a qualifying period).
NI is the only part of the world where that principle does not apply, the FAI is the only Association which may exploit this exception and the IFA is the only Association which suffers by it.
I was specifically referring to guys like Owen Polley setting up contrived and twisted Facebook groups with odd titles such as "Protect Northern Ireland players' identity rights". The only ones to ever threaten northern-born Irish nationals identity rights were the IFA.Quote:
It is you who is introducing such arguments (bold) to this thread not I, so it is your Straw Man, not mine.
As for the straw man, it's a claim I've encountered time and time again on OWC and it is the implication in your posts. I just thought I'd reiterate what a load of nonsense it was seeing as you were insinuating that there was some sentiment finding ground in the nationalist community that young nationalists ought to play for Ireland. There clearly is no such sentiment or interest in dictating to young nationalists what national team they should line out for. Neither Paddy McCourt nor Niall McGinn have ever been vilified by the nationalist community as traitors or anything of the sort.
The IFA attempted to limit the choice of northern-born Irish nationals to play for their national team. Let's nip this one in the bud and cut the bull****.Quote:
Preventing someone from playing for one team is not the same as forcing them to play for another. The IFA attempted to do the former, in protection of its own interests, as every other Association will do when it feels its interests are being unfairly infringed.
And in any case, the latter is impossible - or haven't you heard eg of Stephen Ireland?
I think we share different definitions of what it is to be Irish. I have an Irish passport; presumably you have a British one and possess no interest in attaining an Irish one or being recognised as an Irish national. That's fair enough, but to bleet on about your apparent Irishness seems at odds with the facts. If anything, I suppose you could try and claim to be Northern Irish or something if that makes you happy.Quote:
(Btw, you refer to "Irish fans". I would remind you that I am every bit as Irish as you, seeing as how I was born in Ireland - a fortuitous matter of "nature", rather than choice.
Making up imaginary principles there again, I see... Why not just stick to the rules that are written down in FIFA's rule-book for all to see? No need for vague and wishy-washy principles to be introduced into the mix again at this stage. Oh, and as for the attempt at a subtle dig there; sorry to burst your little bubble of excitement here, but you're mistaken as to my background anyway. Not that my parentage or where on this island I was born would make the slightest ounce of a difference anyway as regards my eligibility to play for Ireland. In principle and in rule, of course. ;)Quote:
Moreover, having grandparents from Tipperary and Leitrim, I should be in principle more entitled to represent the ROI than George, or maybe even you...)
My "side"? What are you talking about? My "side" has nothing to do with anything. I would have little time for Rogan's input no matter what his background was. Just because he's from the nationalist community doesn't mean I should take any more notice of what he has to say on matters. There isn't one single and homogenous nationalist orthodoxy, you do know?Quote:
P.S. I like your closing line; when someone from "your" side (eg Rogan) argues something inconvenient, it must be worthless and when someone from "your" side (eg Aidinho) argues something highly embarrassing, they mustn't really be from "your" side at all. You know, such debating tactics really don't do your credibility any good...
As for Aidinho, he was apparently a Scottish Celtic fan with a fetish for Aiden McGeady and what appeared to be a mild interest in the Irish football team due to Irish ancestry. That is, of course, if he was indeed who he was claiming to be. There are plenty of opinions on here that I disagree with but I don't resort to claiming that certain posters who post things I disagree with must be on a wind-up or are not genuine Ireland fans just because they make me cringe for them. Aidinho was a bit of a special case, possibly in even that most patronising meaning of the word. His offerings were so bizarre and incitant, I just found it hard to even begin to concieve that he wasn't playing dumb and might genuinely be who he was claiming to be.
Ealing, dissecting comments and writing essays in response does not take away from the fact - Northern Born Irish people can play for us! Accept it and move on.
Its out of character alright, I can hear you now geysir...."run forest....run.....":DQuote:
Originally Posted by geysir
We are Unbeatleable.. we are unbeatleable..Quote:
I must have been having one of those days yesterday, sound like a right grumpy sod!! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
A single thread would be good, could also be used to highlight potential players from the north who could do a job for us. A few pointers in the right direction to the FAI scouts can do no harm, although they are pretty much up to speed on all that goes on.
A single thread would be horrid every time the person's name came up after a bit of time you would be scrolling through a ton of crap. What if you wanted to talk about Caleb Folan today but he was in a thread mixed in with Sean Scannell, Terry Dixon, and Ger Crossley and the like? It would be so annoying.