IFA sticks with Windsor Park

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By leaving Windsor and going for a new build you will be able to attract the extra people and also make it more economically sustainable by having it available for other uses as said elsewhere

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What other uses? Other sports already have their facilities, and are developing them (suggesting less than wholehearted commitment to new build). U2 and REM or whoever today's youth go to see aren't going to play Belfast four or five times a year just to justify a vanity project stadium.

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What other uses? Other sports already have their facilities, and are developing them (suggesting less than wholehearted commitment to new build). U2 and REM or whoever today's youth go to see ...

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Rudi to reform then?

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I don't pretend to understand the engineering, but why can't they incorporate that new technology?

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For some technologies location is crucial. A stadium built with a wind turbine at each corner for example, would work very well on a windy lough side like the north foreshore but not at windsor where getting planning permission would also be difficlut if not impossible.
There are a whole range of technologies which work better for a bespoke structure than retro fitting an existing one although a new south stand at windsor could indeed take advantage of it's south facing aspect. Other technologies could also be retrofitted but will never be as efficient or economical as a new build project.
I was also talking about the flexibility in useage of a new stadium, a retractable roof increases the range of possible uses, banks of seating can be added or removed as necessary for spectator/ participants demands etc etc. In Japan theres a stadium where the whole pitch slides outside on a big shelf!! There are lots of possiblities.
Better design can mean the stadium can be used by a a wider range of people and therefore more of an asset for everyone. Concerts are only one idea, what about horse shows, exhibitions, conferences, mad men jumping over burning things in cars with big wheels etc etc. I don't know the point is that windsor will only ever have a very limited utility to a very limited set of people on a very limited number of occasions and a well designed stadium could be used much more regularly by a wider range of people(taxpayers).
A north foreshore stadium would be a fantastic sight for anyone coming down the hill into belfast on the M2.

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Originally Posted by punkrocket

There are a whole range of technologies which work better for a bespoke structure than retro fitting an existing one although a new south stand at windsor could indeed take advantage of it's south facing aspect. Other technologies could also be retrofitted but will never be as efficient or economical as a new build project

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Thanks. I accept that any new structure will have some engineering, energy conservation and other advantages over an existing building. But think of the new stands at Windsor as a halfway house between shoring up ramshackle facilities and an entirely new build.

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I was also talking about the flexibility in useage of a new stadium, a retractable roof increases the range of possible uses, banks of seating can be added or removed as necessary for spectator/ participants demands etc etc. In Japan theres a stadium where the whole pitch slides outside on a big shelf!! There are lots of possiblities. Better design can mean the stadium can be used by a a wider range of people and therefore more of an asset for everyone. Concerts are only one idea, what about horse shows, exhibitions, conferences, mad men jumping over burning things in cars with big wheels etc etc. I don't know the point is that windsor will only ever have a very limited utility to a very limited set of people on a very limited number of occasions and a well designed stadium could be used much more regularly by a wider range of people(taxpayers)

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Belfast doesn't need (ie, there's no real demand for) an equivalent to Wembley, Cardiff Millennium or anything state of the art in Japan. All the events you mention can be staged either in exisiting facilities or in Windsor after redevelopment. Or even in other stadia. Any notional new stadium would therefore have little, if any greater utility than Windsor.

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A north foreshore stadium would be a fantastic sight for anyone coming down the hill into belfast on the M2

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Indeed, though that's hardly a compelling reason to build one. A hologram on advertising hoarding would be a lot cheaper.

What was the last time that windsor was used for any purpose other than a football match?

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A hologram on advertising hoarding would be a lot cheaper

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Cheaper aint always better.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

On the issue of whether Windsor should be abandoned, they are pretty much the be all and end all. It's a public facility and they are clearly identifiable as the people who use it. Any inconveneience that causes for other people is a factor, but we're not really arguing about that, are we?

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They may well be the people who use it, and who will continue to use it, but they are not the people who will be payingto replace it. They are asking the state to do it and there isn't many votes in this project, especially in the middle of a recession. There are bitter pills to be swallowed on water rates etc and this work will have to be done in the middle of hard times ahead

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Obviously building a new multi-use stadium is a separate and wider issue.

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If by multi-sport you want to include GAA, as a republican i happily admit it is a non-runner. Pitch dimensions make it impossible, It would be cheaper to build 2 stadiums

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See above. Rugby and other sports don't need a new stadium, evidence being their lack on interest in lobbying for one, development of their exisiting facilities etc.

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I disagree about rugby. Ravenhill is like a club ground compared to stadia like liberty stadium and Thomond Park. The Ulster branch are sticking with Ravenhill but if there is a 20,000 - 25,000 stadium in Belfast they would be insane not to use it Heineken cup games etc. We might also get the odd Ireland game once the deal with Aviva runs out and we are capable of having one without a squabble over anthems

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Is Belfast really short of an outdoor concert venue? If you don't like Windsor, wouldn't Casement or Ravenhill or the Botanic Gardens do? I don't watch much stadium rock these days, but I'd have guessed that any act likely to fill a stadium would be far more likely just to play Croke (or Lansdowne when it re-opens) in Ireland.

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It certainly is short of one. Casement isn't suitable given its lack of seating, the Odyssey is too small for the U2's and Metallica's of this world. I see no reason at all why they wouldn't come to Belfast.

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Your opinion does carry that same weight as Kennedy's. You want a new stadium in Belfast? Fine, vote and lobby your councillors and MLAs for it. Prefer to leave Windsor ramshackle? Ditto.

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I would prefer leaving Windsor ramshackle to fixing it. Ultimately although I want the best for my city I won't loose much sleep over Northern Ireland fans watching a match in a wooden stand with a fire engine out back

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Obviously they should lobby for what their customers want, including public money. I believe there will be public support for this investment, even if the choice of other developers at which to shop has been slashed by the recession. OK, it won't be 100% public support, but this is Northern Ireland after all...

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This is Northern Ireland, and if this proposal is going to go ahead it must go through the executive/assembly, which means Sinn Fein signing off on it. I can't see their voters being happy at millions going to repair Windsor Park

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Interesting points about security and access. I think these are less of a problem than you suggest. Car parking does need improvement, but Windsor is within walking distance of the centre (two miles). Without being trite about the riot at the Poland game, those kicking it off would have been able to find the necessary dark alleys somewhere else if they wanted. And in crude cost terms we can't reasonably plan a football stadium in Belfast on the basis that Polish/ English/ whoever's hooligans visit once every five years. I expect your brother reassured you that most other recent internationals/ cup fianls/ big two derbies have passed off largely preacefully?

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He has seen no violence apart from that game, although sectarianism remains a serious issue amongst your fans. He has only very nice things to say about your players, and got to hold the World Cup when it was over for the Wales game (jammy wee ****e).

The point about taking the stadium out of an area like the village is that there are no alleyways to hid in. Most modern stadiums have very little around them for a couple of hundred yards. If you have organised rioting such as is an issue in England they will arrange to meet somewhere and get down to it, but it takes 2 to tango and, for all their faults, I don't think that is an issue with NI fans. Which is why the Poland riots were mainly between the cops and the poles. Most of your fans, with a few exceptions, got themselves offside when they saw what was heppening. If that riot had been on an open piece of ground it would have been contained much quicker and easier by the police.

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Why haven't these sites been discussed along with Ormeau Park/ Mays Field/ North Foreshore/ Blanchflower Park etc.? Again, genuine question.

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I have no idea, they seem like the most obvious sites in the world to me, and Belfast Council own them both

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Personally, I'd have little problem with a stadium at one end of Boucher Road rather than the other. Even if I don't share your confidence that it would solve the political issues. As for infrastructure for GAA matches- you've already got that a mile away at Casement. £27 million is a lot more than £20 million (assuming that new build costs would be similar to Swansea's).

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aww come on, even to 'our wee government' £7m is loose change. Just last week they found more than that for SPED because that fat f*cker Nolan was yapping on about SPED running out of cash

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Strictly speaking, aren't the other Boucher Road sites brownfield (ie previously used for industry/ warehousing etc.)?

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Most of it is but the 2 i mentioned are council owned parks. One of them is football pitches which i doubt are ever used given their location in the middle of an industrial estate.

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Ha ha. Dublin is already getting a UEFA cup final; the South could quite easily host the U-21 tournament (LoI grounds with a showpiece final), the U-19 in 2005 went well, hopefully Brandywell will be redeveloped. But...there's about as much chance of the senior European championships happening in Ireland as of San Marino playing in them.

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We couldn't do a worse job than Ukraine-Poland. you would be surprised what we could do between us.

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Beautifully evocative description. But if you want 3,000,000 people to use facilities, you don't put them in Aughnacloy. Much as I love it, it's a rural village.

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Its a rural village 3m people can drive to after work, put in 3 hours training and be in the house for 11pm. Its signifigance is it will be a rural village with 3 motorways going into it. Someone will take advantage of that fact. If sport doesn't grab it it will be turned into another massive miles from anywhere retail park.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

I don't think so. While almost all NI fans I know were opposed to the Maze plan, many (including me) would have preferred a new site close to Belfast city centre, as detailed above and on previous threads. No such site attracted serious interest for development, then the recession kicked in. The redevelopment of Windsor is seen as less than ideal but realistic by many of us.

The IFA and NI fans are guaranteeing nothing of the sort. If 'certain parties' continue to boycott Windsor that's a shame. Let's move on.

They (the IFA) have done. Their commitment to the Maze plan was foolish, but it could have been worse- not as if we wasted £100 million building the thing. Since then, as I said above, no one has actually been able to put up a sustainable bid for a new build elsewhere in the city. If anyone had done so, we might now be looking at building work in say, the brownfield/ ex-leisure centre area of Ormeau Park.

The ways to incorporate wider views as you suggest are clear enough, and haven't been ignored. To build a stadium in the city, you also need planning consent and co-operation from local residents. business etc. To spend tens of millions on new facilities, you need to get elected in the first place. If those facilities are ludicrously wasteful, as a local politician you can expect not to be re-elected.

As for the 1% dig, clearly far more than that support the NI football. Almost certainly far more than the proportion of the electorate who will decide how to vote based mainly on whether Windsor closes or not.

The GAA and IRFU were consulted. Clearly they weren't that bothered. Presumably because neither of them feel they need a new stadium at the Maze, in Nelfast or anywhere else.

They are widening their appeal; there is clearly a limit beyond which attempting to widen it further is pointless; I've explained above why no such 'neutral' area has been identified.

If you don't like their 'attitudes' (basically, that they identify with NI and support its football team), you clearly fall beyond the limit above. You aren't ever going to support NI: if you want to influence planning and development in Belfast city, move there and vote. Otherwise, you are just trolling?

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They are preaching to the converted, as in your synopsis any new stadium will be designed with the North's fans in mind, which conflicts in these days of pragmatic austerity which would surely mean it will have to have other uses beyond a venue for a German aristocracy tribute song a few times a year.

So to this end a ground with, er, 'wider' appeal (In your case, you'd favour surely ??) and with modern facilties/access isn't going to easily happen at Linfield, unless of course they make a few locals homeless?

There are other reasons as Btw has correctly identified, not least that there are other sites with much less population to be charmed into an alternative venue, as no-one is, er, living there! If he can readily identify these so easily, then I'm sure the local politicians can too.

Why the resistance to a new multi-purpose stadium anyway;it's going to be built largely out of public funds, which are only ever going to sanction more diverse use.
And that should be beyond the 1% of their population of the North, who are currently actually able to watch them in person......

Which means The IRFU & concerts are liable to be incorporated for the reasons given above, in the main by Btw.
If the North want to improve their 'legitimacy', they should be mindful of making their 'national' stadium open to all, as the IFA claim the team are. But the fans are the ones who seem paranoid towards virtually any kind of change!

As for living in the North and voting for an alternative venue there are those who are better qualified, but I'm not trolling.
Why should I care about dubious Norwegians anyway, unless of course you are talking about Tony Capaldi??

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Where the NI football team plays is obviously more important to those who watch it play than to public opinion as a whole. Of course I accept that specific groups such as local residents have a crucial interest. What's best for the IFA as a whole is that we have an adequate stadium that fans want to visit, that doesn't incovenience everyone else and which is affordable. So no fallacy. If you want to co-own the issue (or express an opinion, as I'd put it), fine. You can't reasonably expect universal agreement.

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What is 'obviously more important' is what is best for football ie the IFA in ensuring its best interests in the longer term. That includes all parties within their umbrella. The GAWA is only but one element of it.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Do you have links for this research? Genuine question, I'd like to read it. It's just that studies based on what people will think in 50 years' time strike me less as research, more clairvoyancy.

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Enjoy living in your bubble.

Just do a google and you with find lots of research.

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Belfast doesn't need (ie, there's no real demand for)......anything state of the art

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Yes as BTW says there is most certainly a demand for this size of venue in Belfast. Building state of the art means that you can taylor make it to any spec you want and have it to the highest standard (finances permitting) possible. If you want to design it with an athletics track under the front rows which can be retracted when needed, then these things are possible. A brand new multi use stadium would be a great boost to all the local builders who are twiddling their thumbs at the moment and really give the economy a timely kick. A bit of ambition is needed here instead of accepting second best, which is what a tarted up windsor park would be.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

Enjoy living in your bubble.

Just do a google and you will find lots of research.

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Don't worry MP, he enjoys that bubble. One size fits all!

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Originally Posted by punkrocket

What was the last time that windsor was used for any purpose other than a football match?

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No idea off-hand. Note that I'm talking about what it might attract after redevelopment. And even then, if that doesn't include a full program of concerts, car boot sales, equine shows and the like, there might just be an alternative explanation to Windsor being a cauldron of sectarian terror. You know, like all those events already being staged elsewhere?

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Originally Posted by back to Walsall

They may well be the people who use it, and who will continue to use it, but they are not the people who will be payingto replace it. They are asking the state to do it and there isn't many votes in this project, especially in the middle of a recession. There are bitter pills to be swallowed on water rates etc and this work will have to be done in the middle of hard times ahead

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Yes, we'll all be paying to replace it. The state will invest in a facility used by a significant proportion of the population and with the broad support of a much larger group. Successive sports minister Campbell and McCausland don't need to worry unduly about the votes of 13,000 fans going to Windsor, but they do need to realise who would take the blame if NI were left with no football stadium to play in. Let alone if they sanctioned the waste of much larger sums of money on white elephant vanity projects.

Of course I take your points about the wider recession, tax changes and increases etc. As a result the refurb won't happen overnight and it probably won't be ideal.

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If by multi-sport you want to include GAA, as a republican i happily admit it is a non-runner. Pitch dimensions make it impossible, It would be cheaper to build 2 stadiums

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What, even in the middle of a recession? ;)

As I understand it, the playing area at Windsor is just about large enough to fit a GAA pitch. Maybe someday they'll be happy to use it...

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I disagree about rugby. Ravenhill is like a club ground compared to stadia like liberty stadium and Thomond Park. The Ulster branch are sticking with Ravenhill but if there is a 20,000 - 25,000 stadium in Belfast they would be insane not to use it Heineken cup games etc

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Er...there will be a 20,000 stadium. The IRFU can use it in the same way as the GAA. I don't follow rugby union so I couldn't tell you why they were so lacklustre about alternatives to Ravenhill.

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We might also get the odd Ireland game once the deal with Aviva runs out and we are capable of having one without a squabble over anthems

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See above. As for anthems, I would prefer 'Ireland's call' and nowt else at Ireland games, but as I say I'm not really a fan.

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I would prefer leaving Windsor ramshackle to fixing it. Ultimately although I want the best for my city I won't loose much sleep over Northern Ireland fans watching a match in a wooden stand with a fire engine out back

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You realise one contradicts the other? Such negativity, it's a shame, but if need be we'll move on without your blessing.

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This is Northern Ireland, and if this proposal is going to go ahead it must go through the executive/assembly, which means Sinn Fein signing off on it. I can't see their voters being happy at millions going to repair Windsor Park

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Last time I looked, Sinn Fein was claiming to be a political party of government, not a single issue pressure group to close Windsor. As part of the usual political horse-trading they will do lots of things that elements within their elecotrate will dislike. And let's be honest- a large proportion of nationalist voters, like unionists just won't get that excited about the issue.

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Just last week they found more than that for SPED because that fat f*cker Nolan was yapping on about SPED running out of cash

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Ha ha. I knew we'd agree on something eventually.

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Most of it is but the 2 i mentioned are council owned parks. One of them is football pitches which i doubt are ever used given their location in the middle of an industrial estate

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My mistake, I know where you mean.

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We couldn't do a worse job than Ukraine-Poland. you would be surprised what we could do between us

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I'm afraid 2012 will be shambolic (an impression not reassured by three days in Poland recently). Ukraine's stadiums won't be ready, there aren't enough hotels, Poland has systematic violence.

Ireland isn't going to stage a senior European championship. It's a fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Ardee Bhoy

If he can readily identify these so easily, then I'm sure the local politicians can too

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The sites BTW has chosen haven't been mentioned anywhere else in the local media, by any politicians, on other web board. Anywhere. Ergo they aren't a serious alternative. As I said, I'd have no problem walking down the Boucher Road had the city council identified it as a site.

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And that should be beyond the 1% of their population of the North, who are currently actually able to watch them in person...

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What are you suggesting, that they build a stadium that can hold 1.8 million people?

Windsor with its capacity increased by 50% to 20,000 will obviously be available to more people at a time. When redeveloped, it should be suitable also for a wider range of events, other sports, music, whatever. All these other things are notional maybe, but no more so than BTW's international sports centre in Aughnacloy or punkrocket's glittering superstructure looming up as you drive downhill from Glengormley.

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But the fans are the ones who seem paranoid towards virtually any kind of change

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This is simply wrong. The fans rejected one proposed change as absurd. They/ we have been debating a range of alternatives for years, hardly suggestive of paranoia.

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Why should I care about dubious Norwegians anyway, unless of course you are talking about Tony Capaldi??

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I think he's from Solihull actually.

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Originally Posted by Mr Parker

What is 'obviously more important' is what is best for football ie the IFA in ensuring its best interests in the longer term. That includes all parties within their umbrella. The GAWA is only but one element of it

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Its best interests are served by ensuring it listens to its customers, lives within its means and in harmony with its neigbors. Not by pandering to unrealistic pipe-dreams.

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Enjoy living in your bubble.

Just do a google and you with find lots of research

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Thanks. Equally, enjoy your MOPERY.

Don't you take the research seriously enough to quote it?

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Originally Posted by punkrocket

Yes as BTW says there is most certainly a demand for this size of venue in Belfast

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It's a daydream, not something people are voting and lobbying for.

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Building state of the art means that you can taylor make it to any spec you want and have it to the highest standard (finances permitting) possible

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That's right, finances permitting. Finances don't permit building Fantasy Island, I'm afraid.

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A bit of ambition is needed here instead of accepting second best, which is what a tarted up windsor park would be

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Refurbished Windsor Park holding 20,000 is more ambitious than the present third-rate facility.

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Originally Posted by punkrocket

What was the last time that windsor was used for any purpose other than a football match?



Cheaper aint always better.

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Probably when a local camoige club used it a couple of years back.

It has staged rugby league games in the past too.

So you agree with most of our points then, Mr.Round??

And the only relative 'mopery' coming over in this thread is of certain fans of the North's football team. Which is fine, as just reinforces their image of paranoia to change!

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

So you agree with most of our points then, Mr.Round??

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I've commented where I disagree. Not necessarily in every case where your points are the usual repetitive, drearily predictable, semi-coherent sectarian nonsense ;)

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And the only relative 'mopery' coming over in this thread is of certain fans of the North's football team

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Surely the reverse? I've commented to say I'm pleased Windsor is to be redeveloped. I haven't moaned about the battle being lost (like Mr Parker), or like BTW claimed one moment that he wants the best for his home city, then in the next looked forward to its main football stadium falling down.

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Which is fine, as just reinforces their image of paranoia to change!

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Just parroting this again and again doesn't make it any less wrong, you know.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

I've commented where I disagree. Not necessarily in every case where your points are the usual repetitive, drearily predictable, semi-coherent sectarian nonsense
Surely the reverse? I've commented to say I'm pleased Windsor is to be redeveloped. I haven't moaned about the battle being lost (like Mr Parker), or like BTW claimed one moment that he wants the best for his home city, then in the next looked forward to its main football stadium falling down.
Just parroting this again and again doesn't make it any less wrong, you know.

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What's 'sectarian' about pointing out a newer more multi-purpose stadium in a neutral area? I realise you may disagree with widening its appeal but that's fine.
No need to get up on some notional high horse and pretend your view is better, just because you claim to support the North. The same tropical bird obsession could equally be applied to your good self.

But the overall unreasonable objections do fly in the face of what the IFA claim (which I don't blame them or the players for) and hence the impression of deep paranoia. Suggest you get out more!

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Originally Posted by gspain

Probably when a local camoige club used it a couple of years back.

It has staged rugby league games in the past too.

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Also held some major events with the Orange Order, most notably for the Bi-centenary.

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Originally Posted by gspain

Probably when a local camoige club used it a couple of years back.

It has staged rugby league games in the past too.

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GS,

Did the Camogie girls not train at Midgeley?

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Originally Posted by MariborKev

GS,

Did the Camogie girls not train at Midgeley?

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The one-off training session took place in Midgeley Park beside Windsor Park

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Fair enough. But as finances are stretched at the moment, do you think they would accept Morton Stadium as our token contribution for the time being?

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Hah. Still they haven't noticed the National Aquatic Centre (one of the few good things to come out of Abbotstown!!) which also crept in under the radar and isn't actually a bad facility.

Was there briefly last year to see my pal's daughter competing in the National Swimming championships, including, amazingly, teams from another 'political jurisdiction'....


Surely some mistake??
;)