Irish League clubs in Europe?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

But against that, none of our teams have rent from the national side...

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True, but then we are only reaping the benefits of that rent now. We went through years of barely covering costs and in some seasons costing us money. (everyone convenienantly forgets that) So it was a hinderence for long enough. Also the rent fluxuates(sp?) every season. 1 season we could get £100,000 the next £400,000. So we can hardly take the gamble of using a high budget because of NI income.

If no one turned up to the NI games, then Linfield would be hugely out of pocket as we pay for all the expenses of ground upkeep and match day expenses.

Until the league gets better funded like the LOI we will find it very hard to compete with the lower echelons of football.

So what strength teams will Glentoran and Crusaders field next week? How many of the players will go straight to the beach at Eilat or Dubrovnik without stopping at Maccabi or Rabotnicki first?

Fluctuates, Steve. And fluctumacedonians and all...

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Originally Posted by AnnaghRed

We do get it, its just that the better seedings, getting further in the competitions and earning more prize money, don't seem to have done the finances of recent LoI champions much good.

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Sure why bother playing in the league then?

We made feck all from the Kyustendil games, but it was a great experience. And we've two great games to remember too. And got to see a couple of senior internationals in our humble home.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Sure why bother playing in the league then?

We made feck all from the Kyustendil games, but it was a great experience. And we've two great games to remember too. And got to see a couple of senior internationals in our humble home.

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Couldnt you have organised a friendly and seen those players without having to traipse to Bulgaria?

The least UEFA could do is regionalise the earlier stages of their competions.

Traipsing to Bulgaria was the part of the fun.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Traipsing to Bulgaria was the part of the fun.

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We still get these fun trips without overhauling our league. Realistically NO irish league team or LOI will ever get past 2 rounds of Europe.

We also get the fun of having matched the team though, and having seen two good games of ball.

And so what if no Irish League team will ever get past two rounds of Europe? If Distillery had gotten past one, they'd have been up against Henrik Larsson.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

We also get the fun of having matched the team though, and having seen two good games of ball.

And so what if no Irish League team will ever get past two rounds of Europe? If Distillery had gotten past one, they'd have been up against Henrik Larsson.

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The thing is though, apart from this year Linfield have been very competitive with our european counterparts.

Last year we got a 1-1 draw away to Dinamo Zagreb. Would the LOI teams have done better? I highly doubt it.

We also done well against Elfsborg, but because we are out of season we where always going to get put out, but none the less we where 5 inches away from going through in that game but Peter Thompson just missed what SHOULD have been a goal.

So although this season has been a disaster for IL teams in Europe, we have been competitive just not quite good enough to go through most times.

The LOI although do fare better than the IL, it still isn't anything earth shattering and it certainly isn't worth it for the IL to do a complete overhaul to get to the LOI level in Europe, which lets face it, isn't impressive at all.

You keep talking about this overhaul the IL supposedly needs to stop getting beaten double figures. It doesn't need an overhaul. All it needs is your players to take the competition seriously. This was my point about how UCD, playing in a winter season, with average crowds of 500 or so, called our players back into pre-season training early - all our players were up for this - and put in an excellent, enjoyable performance against a decent Bulgarian side with a couple of senior internationals. All this without going broke, or radically overhauling our club or league. That's all.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

You keep talking about this overhaul the IL supposedly needs to stop getting beaten double figures. It doesn't need an overhaul. All it needs is your players to take the competition seriously. This was my point about how UCD, playing in a winter season, with average crowds of 500 or so, called our players back into pre-season training early - all our players were up for this - and put in an excellent, enjoyable performance against a decent Bulgarian side with a couple of senior internationals. All this without going broke, or radically overhauling our club or league. That's all.

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I dare say if Linfield where a very small club who doesn't qualify for Europe often, we would do the same thing.(I don't mean any disrespect) But we qualify every year, our players are part-time and it is a bit much to ask a part time player to play until the May, take 3/4 weeks off and start playing again EVERY YEAR.

Do you not see how this is unrealistic?

Also this double figures thing. Cliftonville got beat last season in the intertwobob against Copenhagen, a team that has drew with Manchester United in the CL, a team that has beaten Celtic in the CL and a team who regularly qualifies for the CL proper.

Distillery on the other hand have no excuses for their result and Linfield this season was beaten by a team who are better than us and our stupid mistakes.

But double figures is not the norm for IL clubs.

Linfield every season (near enough) always comes away with a respectable result even though it goes against us a lot more often than not. (although in the last 5/6 years Linfield and Glentoran have got past the 1st round)

So from Linfields point of view, whilst things are not ideal, we are not in the position to ask part-time players to foresake their family holidays to get knocked out of Europe in the 1st maybe 2nd round. Which is what would happen and happens every season North and South. (albeit the LOI have got past 2 rounds twice in recent history with Shelbourne & Derry City)

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

We still get these fun trips without overhauling our league. Realistically NO irish league team or LOI will ever get past 2 rounds of Europe.

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LOI clubs regularly get past 2 rounds of Europe. Some start from scratch and almost make the UEFA Cup group stages. It's led to a very high co-efficient ranking for it, which in turn allows them to be even more competitive. Playing in summer allows them to put up a very competitive European performance.

I reject outright, the "family holiday" argument. Most players don't have families, and if they do, then they can go on holidays at Christmas. The rest of the year, football is their job. And if they have to play in July, so be it.

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Originally Posted by mypost

LOI clubs regularly get past 2 rounds of Europe. Some start from scratch and almost make the UEFA Cup group stages. It's led to a very high co-efficient ranking for it, which in turn allows them to be even more competitive. Playing in summer allows them to put up a very competitive European performance.

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Unless I've miscounted, four teams (Pats, Derry, Cork and Shels) have done so out of 15 in the last 5 seasons.
And whilst that is highly commendable, it is hardly "regular". More to the point, with the financial problems presently facing many LOI clubs, I suspect they will be v.pushed to maintain it.
I'm sure you're right about Summer football having helped the LOI in this respect, but there are many other considerations for the IL than just Europe, so it may not be desirable for us.

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Originally Posted by mypost

I reject outright, the "family holiday" argument. Most players don't have families, and if they do, then they can go on holidays at Christmas.

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Some are family men, but even those who aren't need a break, too.
Now there may be an argument for slimming down the domestic season in NI, but as it stands, the season ends in May, before restarting in August.
Therefore, by the time you allow for a few weeks essential pre-season training, the only time for a break is end June/early July.
As for a holiday at Christmas - that is silly, since the IL plays games then, often to the biggest crowds of the season.

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Originally Posted by mypost

The rest of the year, football is their job.

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WRONG! These are part-timers - their career, their family, their mortgage, their working life for the next 30-40 years etc are to be found away from football.
Of course, you may say that players who do not put football first lack ambition etc. However, I think you are overlooking one major point i.e. those who are prepared to put football before everything else are usually doing so in England or Scotland.
If, for whatever reason, a player stays in the IL, it is on a part-time basis, which means that football comes second to their "main" life.
Sad but inevitable, given the IL's present circumstances (imo).

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Unless I've miscounted, four teams (Pats, Derry, Cork and Shels) have done so out of 15 in the last 5 seasons.
And whilst that is highly commendable, it is hardly "regular". More to the point, with the financial problems presently facing many LOI clubs, I suspect they will be v.pushed to maintain it.

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Four times in five seasons sounds regular enough to me. I agree that it'll happen less regularly over the next few years.

But again, the progressing through two rounds is a bit of a false target. How many clubs have progressed through one round? That's the starting point.

Anyways two more Irish League teams in European action this week. Crusaders will play Rabotnicki from Macedonia and Glentoran will play Maccabi Haifa.

I think Crusaders might be able to get something from their "home" game but ultimately Rabotnicki will progress. Glentoran will be looking to keep the score down.

http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sp...ter.5456330.jp

Just one of many reasons I am glad Irish league clubs don't take European football as seriously as our southern counterparts.

We may not get the results, but in comparison our football clubs are financially sound (that is not saying we haven't got financial problems up here, but in comparison it's not as near severe as in the LOI)

The LOI are now DEPENDANT on going through a round or two in europe. To me thats a sorry state of affairs.

I'll gladly watch my mediocre Linfield side in a mediocre league and be around for the rest of my life and beyond, rather than watching a better Linfield side in a better league but always looking over my shoulder wondering when the next few £'s are coming from.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sp...ter.5456330.jp

Just one of many reasons I am glad Irish league clubs don't take European football as seriously as our southern counterparts.

We may not get the results, but in comparison our football clubs are financially sound (that is not saying we haven't got financial problems up here, but in comparison it's not as near severe as in the LOI)

The LOI are now DEPENDANT on going through a round or two in europe. To me thats a sorry state of affairs.

I'll gladly watch my mediocre Linfield side in a mediocre league and be around for the rest of my life and beyond, rather than watching a better Linfield side in a better league but always looking over my shoulder wondering when the next few £'s are coming from.

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TBH if an amateur LOI club like Wexford Youths were playing in Europe, I'd expect them to give Zestafoni a much better game than what Lisburn did. You're assuming that IL clubs need to go full-time to make progress. I think it's a lot simplier than that. All you need to do is to start fielding sides that are physically match fit. Yes IL sides won't be playing Champions League football within the next 50 years but surely there is an onus on the clubs to make an attempt to compete. I don't see why there is such a reluctance to change.

As for the financial state of the top LOI clubs; there were sources of money available to clubs in the past that are no longer there. If these clubs wish to continue as full-time teams they need to maximise their takings from their European ties. The article you highlight just repeats what everyone is already aware of. And judging by this thread, IL clubs are now DEPENDENT on their Christmas fixture list. To me that's a sorry state of affairs.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

I'll gladly watch my mediocre Linfield side in a mediocre league and be around for the rest of my life and beyond, rather than watching a better Linfield side in a better league but always looking over my shoulder wondering when the next few £'s are coming from.

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Finally you admit the LOI is a better league

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

But again, the progressing through two rounds is a bit of a false target. How many clubs have progressed through one round? That's the starting point.

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Over the past 5 years most loi clubs have progressed one round bar sligo this year cork city last year, st pats 2 years ago, derry 2 years ago thats it so 3 clubs a year in europe for 5 years with a fail rate in the first round of 4/15 not bad. getting through the 2nd round is very difficult alright

Thanks; was too lazy to do that myself. :p