The utd. fans have a simialr song about Hillsborough also clearly audible at the games. Scum element on either side.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
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The utd. fans have a simialr song about Hillsborough also clearly audible at the games. Scum element on either side.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Guilt by association, if you like. Not yours - Liverpool fans'.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
As you rightly say, there shouldn't be any reason to sympathise with Liverpool fans as a whole over what happened to others at Hillsborough. But you do seem to be condemning Liverpool fans as a whole based on what others did on other occasions. Strange - seeing as you mention it happening to Bohs fans after the Derry incident.
But I may have misinterpreted your post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmurphyc
rip 96
rip 96Quote:
Originally Posted by neilmcd
rip 96Quote:
Originally Posted by skstu
good point scum element involved with most clubs.... but but a nice touch by utd wednesday night v porto when players wore black armbands in respect of hillsborough :ball:Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadend
misinformed re hysel and Hillborough, correct about Athens. No mention of Istanbul which is more relevent to Athens since is was in the same decade and involved the same generation of fans. Any chance of a balanced view on things?Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
what happened in Istanbul
I was in Istanbul and didn't notice anything other than a convoy of buses whose clutches had burnt out trying in vain to climb the steep corkscrew hills near the stadium.
why do they tell people to boycott the sun over something that happened 20 years ago? i mean i bet most of them just buy another tabloid anyway so its not like they become more educated and if we were to use history than should liverpool be a hated club for what their fans did to 39 innocent people in brussels?
'The Sun' is boycotted because of an article which was written in the aftermath of Hillsborough claiming that Liverpool fans robbed those lying dead amongst various other scandalous remarks. Typical shoddy red top journalism. You are correct in saying that people just bought another red top though.Quote:
Originally Posted by irishultra
This thread is about Hillsborough, im not commenting on Heysel.
Wonder did they to the same for the Ivorians that died at the World Cup Qualifier?Quote:
Originally Posted by reder
I never actually knew why they boycotted the sun, thanks for that. I presume there is a whole new set of writers there(might be wrong) and anyway also tabloids are the same but I guess its a good reason.
I dont know. To tell you the truth, I was completely taken back by the mass myself. It was a lovely thought all the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by irishultra
I would have been far less surprised if there was a service here given that Liverpool is the protestant club on Merseyside.
The staff is probably completely different from those days but the ill-feeling still remains.Quote:
Originally Posted by irishultra
its a minority like the minority of united fans that sing murderers and you killed your own as do a minority among chelsea and everton fans.im sure if you look at other clubs minorities sing vile things about rivals(sol campbell when spurs went to fratton park springs to mind)Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
nothing happened thats my point. The behaviour was first class, its fair to say that after 20 years since the last CL / European cup that most of those attending Istanbul were genuine fans.Athens was 2 years after and involved the same generation of fans who went along with same attitude - but it also attracted a load of scum bag hanger ons with no connection to the club who caused trouble. My point is that you cant put forward Athens as an example of "Liverpool supporters" causing trouble without considering Istanbul -balanced view!Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Personally, I don't compare Athens at all to Hillsborough and Heysel. I regard it as a minor incident.
On Heysel, I don't accept the allegations of "murder". Riots happened and still happen at football grounds, (most of them not involving Liverpool fans) but most stadiums don't have walls that "collapse" due to inadequate safety procedures, and the Juventus fans died due to the wall collapsing where they were. A tragedy yes, murder no.
Structurally at the time, the stadium was completely unfit to host that final, (a crumbling dangerous dump, with chicken wire as "segregation") and when you compare it to the stadiums that hold it today, it's unbelievable that it was given the honour at all.
Of course you don't. Nothing is ever the responsibility of Liverpool fans, lest we forget.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
I disagree with that. For my experience of going to Liverpool away games and I have been to many, I regularly came accross people trying to bunk into away grounds just before kick off.Quote:
Originally Posted by papa-j
you must be a Liverpool fan, always trying to lay the blame elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Liverpool and Rovers. Does it get any worse? ;)
TODAY, the Liverpool ECHO can exclusively expose how police statements were crucially altered after the Hillsborough tragedy.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
For the first time ever, we can reveal how reams of officers’ accounts were deleted in the weeks following the disaster and how huge swathes of first-hand police statements were removed by South Yorkshire Police.
Today, families of the 96 Liverpool supporters who were killed said the dossier showed South Yorkshire Police trying to divert blame on to others.
Initial statements, before being erased, consistently detail:
A chronic lack of communication between officers.
Nobody tending to the injured.
Useless radios and incoherent transmissions.
Non-existent stewarding.
Lack of use of the public address system.
The lack of police officers on duty, 10%fewer than the previous semi-final involving Liverpool at Hillsborough.
Senior officers concerned about a growing “complacent” attitude towards policing at Hillsborough in years leading up to 1989.
Officers stationed in the wrong sections of the ground and its surrounding area.
The lack of faith officers had in the recently-installed Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield compared with his predecessor Chief Superintendent Brian Mole.
The ECHO has obtained a dossier of officers’ statements that were deleted after the tragedy, that included:
WIPED . . . . . . A statement made by PS Kennedy, who had stated: “Several senior officers were, I’m afraid, lacking in directing the officers there, towards useful purposes.
“My thought on the incident, professionally, are that many officers and above, had no idea of what to do.
“Many were unable to work without being told exactly where to go and what to do, without personal radios, directions were limited.
“Many constables were too concerned about finding their serials {squads}, than trying to help the situation.
“...I had no fears other than the officers feeling let down by higher ranking officers.”
WIPED . . . PC Bennett, who had said: “Although it was basically poorly organised, I felt that officers should have been at the turnstile entrance ways in more strength and caused the crowd to form queues prior to getting near the turnstiles.
“No senior officers at this stage appeared to be in command of the situation and what was happening was several officers of Inspector level pushed amongst the crowd shouting at officers to move the supporters first this way then that way.
“I feel that no one knew what was actually taking place.”
WIPED . . . PC Cammock, who had said: “For a start, the microphone system was next to useless and I and others around me could hear very little of what was actually said.
“We kept asking senior officers to speak up, but still only heard two words in four.”
WIPED . . . PC Ramsden, who had said: “..only one thing has concerned me, was that the pure location of the control box at Hillsborough overlooks the area where the tragedy took place.
“Were not officers appreciative of the developing situation? What was the feedback from the officers working the perimeter of the pitch.
“Couldn’t they see the developing crush on the terraces?”
WIPED . . . PC Green, who had said: “I felt useless and guilty and in anger asked, ‘where the hell were our senior officers?’
“Many officers sat there in bewilderment and still no senior officer was present. It was uplifting to see Chief Supt Mole walk across the field of play.”
WIPED . . . PC Kent, who had said: “...I was surprised that the Liverpool supporters coming to the ground along Halifax Road were allowed to go where they wanted and did not have a police escort from the coaches parked on Halifax Road.”
WIPED . . . PC Winter, who had said: “My feelings at this point were of total confusion, there were no persons to give any guidance at the initial attendance at the scene, everything was done as a gut reaction. “My only observations of the policing of the event were, if we had so many police officers on duty, spread out all over the place, why couldn’t more police have been deviated to the Leppings Lane area, to approach from behind and break up the large crowd?”
WIPED . . . PC Hooson, who had said: “I made a request to one Inspector who was standing on the grass to get a serial {squad} through the back to pull the people out.
“Whether he did or not I don’t know, he seemed a little nonplussed and walked away.”
WIPED . . . PC Twigg, who had said: “I have worked many matches in Hillsborough including last year’s semi final {in 1988} which I feel was policed a lot better because there were more officers on duty.”
WIPED . . . PC Linday, who had said: “Having surveyed the situation, I couldn’t understand why there were only two horses near to the turnstiles when normally there would be four to six on any other fixture.
“The situation appeared to be lost before I got there.”
WIPED . . . PC Groome, who had said: “Too many non-operational supervisory officers were in charge of important and critical parts of the football ground.
“The deployment of officers around the crucial time needs to come under scrutiny, too many were sat in the gymnasium, while others were rushed off their feet.”
Chief Inspector Purdy had some telling criticisms, which were all deleted from his original statement.
He had said: “Why, during the period 2-2.45pm, when the Leppings Lane end and the West Stand were not very full, except for the centre pen, was the kick off not put back and the delay broadcast to the supporters outside?
“You cannot pass 30-40,000 through the turnstiles at the Leppings Lane end in one hour. At 2pm, I would estimate that only 12,000 were in the ground.
“The policing at Hillsborough has become complacent over the last 2-3 years, because there hadn’t been any significant or major outbreaks of trouble, supervisory officers assumed that it wouldn’t happen.
“Various officers working the track and in the ground, had warned that things were starting to go wrong over this period, yet no notice was taken.
“Manpower levels had been steadily cut over this season to the detriment of policing the ground efficiently.
“The decision to replace Chief Superintendent Mole before the semi-final needs to come under some scrutiny.
“The man had many years experience of policing big matches at Hillsborough.”
The account given by PC Lang, appeared crucial, but that too was deleted by his South Yorkshire Police superiors.
The constable had spoken at length of his experience when he was on duty at Hillsborough in 1988, for Liverpool’s semi-final against Nottingham Forest a year earlier.
The officer described how he had personally received the order to close the gates at the top of the tunnel leading to the central pens and that he remained at those gates to prevent entry into the pens and directed fans to the wing pens.
But a large section of that account, which would have demonstrated how the 1989 operation should have worked, but failed to do so, was removed.
Other statements were subtly altered in the dossier, including a declaration from PC Rich that was changed from “we had lost control of the ticket situation”, to “the ticket control had got out of hand”.
PC Brookes, who had noted the central pens were “too” full at 2.50pm, saw the word “too” removed.
And a statement from Inspector Humphries, who had initially reported having 22 constables in his squad, was changed to record he had “thirty”.
Last week, the current Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police Meredydd Hughes admitted that “words” were changed in officers’ statements.
But our evidence demonstrates that words, and in indeed whole paragraphs, were completely slashed.
Today, Margaret Aspinall, from the Hillsborough Family Support Group, who lost her 18-year-old son James in the tragedy, told the ECHO: “It is despicable, there is so much that the public weren’t allowed to know.
“The issue around police statements being edited and deleted is the whole reason why we have never got accountability.
“We always knew they changed a lot of police officers’ accounts which is why we’re desperate to see all the documents relating to Hillsborough.
“It’s not just changing the odd word here and there, it’s major changes in those police statements.”