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Ah right. From the link in Nigel's post #1065, I took "senior" to mean the LOI PD and FD, rather than actually meaning Adult football:Quote:
Originally Posted by culloty82
"ALL leagues at senior and underage level in Ireland will be aligned to the same calendar year schedule etc"
It won't ever succeed in it's current guise. A proper Carlow FC or Kilkenny FC might work, but this CK United amalgamation, planning to play in the middle of nowhere, is destined to fail.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Are LoI clubs to exist within county boundaries only? CK shouldn't fail as long as their youth teams are giving the best players in Carlow and Kilkenny an opportunity to play at a higher level.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
In the case of new clubs aiming to be created outside of the major urban areas, pretty much yeah. You can't ignore the innate identification with county in Irish society, which is a negative at times, in that there are plenty of people who would never dream of supporting a football team outside of their county even if they were really just down the figurative road, but also a positive. A team that could claim to be representing a singular county could well have greater engagement than one that is trying to represent two. That's pretty much what Kerry FC is trying to do it seems, and I doubt they would be doing better if they were trying to be KL or KC.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Kerry has the population. There are counties in GAA who should amalgamate. New LoI clubs don't have to restrict themselves to county boundaries. If professional status is to be attainable for CK, I think they've taken the right approach. There has been a Cavan Monaghan partnership. Laois & Offaly might be another. Carlow Kilkenny and Cavan Monaghan are political constituencies. Laois Offaly is another. It's not just CK who have seen the need for an amalgamation.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
GAA amalgamation, on a senior level anyway, is something I would deem very unlikely to ever happen. I know that there are cases of hurling clubs in football-heavy counties playing in another county's structures and the like, but a full on "Carlow/Kilkenny" senior football team would end up being treated like a scandal by the perpetually outraged GAA community, not a practical solution.
CK could certainly be a good acid test, but my point is that something like Kilkenny FC and Carlow FC might well have greater engagement from their respective areas than CK has trying to attract from both. It might be worth considering some kind of non-geographical branding in the future for them and any such entities if they are trying to move beyond typical Irish parochialism.
I don't think there being political constituencies that consist of two counties is really a point in favour, because there are endless complaints about such boundaries from TD's, councillors and parts of the electorate, and in such places, where parties run more than one candidate, they tend to make sure it's one from one county and one from another to maximise appeal. I'm just thinking of the negative commentary on the proposed Wicklow/Wexford constituency, as an example: https://www.independent.ie/regionals...746346022.html
Carlow and Kilkenny have shared local media. Some counties will be more suited for an LoI club partnership than others. Westmeath possibly would suit an Athlone - Mullingar rivalry, East versus West.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
It's not about county boundaries. It's about the fact they've a terrible name that will appeal to few people, and they're also planning to play their matches in the worng place.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
I think the whole coounty loyalty thing in sporrt is often over-blown i Ireland, and that people are capable of thinking beyond it in sports other than GAA .Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
There are a lot of LOI fans who support teams in a different county : Meath supporters for Drogheda and Bohs ; Kildare fans fof Rovers and Pats ; Leitrim, Mayo and Roscommon support for Sligo ; Tyrone support for Harps ; Donegal supprt for Derry etc etc
Also - when you have Irish people in huge numbers supporting 'their' team in a completely different country, supporting one down the road from them is hardly a big deal even if they are in a different county.
Irsih people are now more mobile within the country than at any time in history (at least since the Famine anyway), and 10% of the population wasn't born here so has no innate sense of county identitiy either. Outside of GAA and a few jokes in the pub, I genuinely think people are increasingly less belligerent about country identity and it stopping who they could back in oither sports.
On Ck United was it that hard to base it in one of the 2 large towns of nearly 30k each? One of them has a large University campus and the other has a history of LOI football,seems like they’re playing from behind from the start with the choice of home ground….
What name do you want them to have? CK Leinster? They had their reasons for moving away from "Carlow Kilkenny FC".Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
I think they should have looked at going the way Treaty did. Name it after something significant from the region. Not necessarily a historical event but it could be that, a historical figure, geographical feature that is related to both like one of the 3 sisters. CK United just sounds like a knockoff underpants brandQuote:
Originally Posted by legendz
In fairness, I wouldn't say that's been a great benefit to Treaty, anytime the name is discussed it's generally in negative terms, and there were rumours after the recent takeover that a change back to some form of "Limerick" was being actively considered. But it might make more sense for something like CK I suppose, where it isn't a weird way to differentiate yourself from a previous club.
Yeah so it didn't work for Treaty and i agree with them changing their name to Limerick United or whatever it may end up being but I think the reasoning behind the name was good and it gave a unique and novel name with a nod to the city. I think that's the approach that should be taken if they want the Cavan/Monaghan Carlow/Kildare amalgamations in the league. It's something American sports do well. 49ers named after the people who followed the gold rush to the city, Utah Jazz were originally from New Orleans and named after the music that originated from the city (franchising of the teams has obviously ruined this connection). There are plenty more as well. It would be a different way to tie the team to the area and get the local backing while still keeping the bigger catchment areaQuote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
Cavan scroungers
The dodgers, based on the Cavan tradition of dodging roundsQuote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
Can't claim to be familiar with the situation in ROI, but other than your "10% percent" of the resident population born outside Ireland (actually 20% as per the 2022 Census), I'd say that that all sounds right.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
And if it's worth anything by way of comparison, I'd say county affiliations have little or no impact on NI football either. (Unless it's Co. Glasgow, Co.Liverpool or Co.Manchester :))
Which is why I don't get this fixation with expanding Senior football on County lines. Fair enough, Kerry have been successful so far, but it's still not yet certain that the seed has taken firm root, or could withstand eg relegation to the 3rd tier, or another couple of years of drought, points-wise. And even if they should succeed, might they not be an outlier?
Besides which, there aren't that many other candidate counties amongst the 26 which are not already served by LOI football, either internally or neighbouring counties - enough to sustain a genuine 3rd tier in a pyramid stretching from Junior, through Intermediate, up to Senior level?
I know the very real barriers to existing Intermediate clubs in reasonably-sized* towns to rise to Senior football have been widely discussed here in the past, but surely to goodness they should be able to offer greater opportunity for organic growth than a few made-up clubs which are just as likely to go the way of eg Kildare or Fingal before them, as thrive like it is hoped Kerry will.
* - I say "reasonably-sized", but would note that in the IL, Loughgall FC, operating from a village of fewer than 400 people, but founded in 1967 and heavily community-based, are doing ok in in the Premiership (7th out of 12, 31 points from 27 games, before crowds averaging 867 per match). Of course it won't last, but even when they eventually do go down, there are plenty of bigger clubs ready to take their place eg Bangor or Portadown.
CK absolutely have not taken the right approach. They haven't really publicly consulted anyone, have gone off on their own to move to Tullow, a town smaller than Ballybofey in the north of Carlow that's not along the train route, it's poorly supported by public transport, and it's just so far out of the way it's beyond a brutal choice of home patch.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Aside from that, it's hardly overly accessible to the people of Kilkenny either. There's any number of places between Carlow and Kilkenny in which they could have based themselves, got involved with all the junior clubs, linked up with the Carlow and Kilkenny leagues, and really grown something for everyone. Instead, they've done much of the opposite, and pretty much doomed themselves before they even start.
Amalgamation of areas is grand if it's done right. Cavan/Monaghan example was another really poor choice based off nothing other than "at least they done it". It was a dreadful experiment, and the only half decent player in the partnership, Monaghan United, quickly jumped ship.
When has it been "done right"? (Genuine question)Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
Ballybofey and Stranorlar..:star:Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Wahey! :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
Derry and Londonderry ;)
You are of course right. The only possible name a team from those counties could have is 'CK United'. No other names could ever exist or be thought of :DQuote:
Originally Posted by legendz
You can just hear their legions of fans chanting "CK! CK!" in their thousands at the Tullow Megadrome as the team enters the pitch. #Believe
On the county point, Wexford are undoubtedly the most successful modern example, in that they've endured in the League for sixteen seasons now (even if they've only been promoted once in that time), and adopting the GAA colours appears to have been embraced by their supporters. An interesting case would be Mayo, in that on their own, Castlebar and Westport would both be decent Connacht League outfits under the proposed system, though probably no further, yet a united Mayo team would be capable of attracting sizeable First Division attendances.
In Norman times, the area was known as "Ossory" and indeed "Ormond", but can't imagine either catching on!Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Sorry, Institute FC and who else? :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
I still think there's an opportunity for a South Park-themed 'Kill Kenny FC'. Or to give it its full name 'OMGY Kill Kenny FC'.Quote:
Originally Posted by culloty82
Interestingly CK United have a post on their Instagram from a week ago thanking some contractors for working on their dugouts to bring the Watershed up to LOI Stadium standard. They could be playing matches in the Watershed in Kilkenny which makes much more sense than Tullow. Real shame they can't use Buckley Park after Castlewarren Celtic cleaned it up last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
It's not easy to think of a name suitable to both counties that isn't the standard Carlow-Kilkenny United. The joint radio station is called KCLR and bar the Dail area there is very little joined between the two counties.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Been a while since I was down there, but isn't the Watershed just a running track with no spectator facilities at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by kksaints
I just looked on Google maps and there's another pitch beside the running track with, what looks like, a small spectator stand on one side. Ground looks very tight though
Pretty much,.I can't imagine it would be used for anything other than academy matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
I was of the impression that they were based in The Watershed in Kilkenny as well. They admit Buckley Park would be the ideal but for whatever reason that is not possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by kksaints
On the subject of Treaty, I don't see visibility that they are doing enough to garner support from Clare and North Tipperary. It's one thing saying people should support their nearest LoI club but are the nearest LoI clubs playing their part. Treaty could have preseason friendlies against Clare League and North Tipperary. At youth level they should have something similar or offer trials in both locations annually.
A summary of today's Pathways Document, which can be downloaded in full on the FAI website:
https://archive.is/ngI2B
The third tier has been officially christened the "National League Premier" with Northern and Southern groups, the key question being if preparations, consultation, etc begin immediately, can it be up and running by this time next year?
From the above:Quote:
Originally Posted by culloty82
"Now, the FAI have split the age groups into five sections from age five up to adult football, with leagues to be played up to Under-14 level from February to June and blitzes, football camps and mini leagues to take place afterwards."
Kevin Doyle has an interesting take on this:
https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2024...-summer-fears/
Has he got a point, or is he overstating it?
He's overstating it. I grew up playing all the sports in Wexford too. There was always overlap anyway, even back then (same era as Kevin himself, think we even played against each other at least once). The clubs find a way to work together with training and games, neither can afford to lose players. There will be some who have to choose, but to be honest, I don't think that's a bad thing. For a lot of kids, the push to play just about everything leads to burn out or just not pushing on from being pretty good at lots of sports to maybe becoming very good at a single one. It's definitely tough in rural counties to pull away from the GAA, there's a lot of pressure not to let the parish down, and I think that still exists, but a proper football career pathway should help parents and kids to make the choice to go in that direction.
There’s as usual plenty of self interest going on ,Shane Keegan who’s employed by the GAA seems to be railing against it aswell,others lying about there being no consultation,all very symbolic of why we’re in the mess we’re in ….
There's loads of the usual "grassroots being forgotten in favour of senior clubs" nonsense being championed across the country, which is utter sh!te.
I hope the plan is pushed through, and anyone who doesn't like it can start their own unaffiliated leagues that have no tie to FAI or any grant monies.
Couldn't agree more. It's little fiefdoms clinging to power that prevent any meaningful change. The big schoolboy clubs farming kids to England didn't have a care for "grassroots" either. They hoovered up young lads from all over the country with their promises of trials in England. Genuine local grassroots clubs will always have a place, but it the plan works as intended, the elite will have much better opportunities to be noticed, to train with similar level players and to potentially have a career in the game in Ireland, if not in Europe or England. If they do go abroad, hopefully the new system will lead to them being better trained, educated and prepared. It should benefit players, clubs, regional leagues, the league of Ireland and the international team if it's implemented with proper rigour. It's not going to happen overnight, but it absolutely should happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
Many of the top intercounty players in Kerry would have played both sports until fairly late on (Darran O'Sullivan, the Cliffords, Mikey Sheehy, among others), not to mention Billy Dennehy playing minor before his LoI career, but generally by the age of 16 it tends to be clear who has the potential to play at senior level, and specialise accordingly, so the idea that scheduling the KDL on a calendar year basis would see anyone extra "lost" to the GAA is rather unlikely.Quote:
Originally Posted by passinginterest