Gavin Bazunu G Standard Liege (loan from Southampton) b.2002

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

The lengths to which you'd go to undermine any hint of praise for this kid...

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It really is constant from stu - you have to wonder where it comes from - and where is the same level of statistical criticism for every other player in the squad.

If you are a manager you do not want you goalkeeper facing shots on goal - in fact in the best teams the goalkeepers rarely face shots and when they do the striker is usually under significant pressure from a defender - because the job of the defence is to prevent the strikers getting a shot off or if they do, make sure they don't get a clean strike (or header).

Why are Man U doing so poorly this year despite spending £50m on a keeper (46 conceded in 31 games) - well, for example, maybe the fact that over two games against Liverpool they have faced 62 shots on goal - and why does that happen - because their defence is useless and Ten Haag doesn't know how to coach his team to defend (because he didn't need to do it with Ajax).

Against Blackburn on Saturday, Southampton had 69% possession and had 7 shots on goal - 2 on target. With 31% possession Blackburn had 11 shots on goal and 3 on target. Southampton should have won comfortably, but could easily have lost. One of the reasons why Southampton didn't concede, apart from Bazunu making three saves, was that Southampton defenders blocked five shots on goal.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

It really is constant from stu - you have to wonder where it comes from - and where is the same level of statistical criticism for every other player in the squad.

If you are a manager you do not want you goalkeeper facing shots on goal - in fact in the best teams the goalkeepers rarely face shots and when they do the striker is usually under significant pressure from a defender - because the job of the defence is to prevent the strikers getting a shot off or if they do, make sure they don't get a clean strike (or header).

Why are Man U doing so poorly this year despite spending £50m on a keeper (46 conceded in 31 games) - well, for example, maybe the fact that over two games against Liverpool they have faced 62 shots on goal - and why does that happen - because their defence is useless and Ten Haag doesn't know how to coach his team to defend (because he didn't need to do it with Ajax).

Against Blackburn on Saturday, Southampton had 69% possession and had 7 shots on goal - 2 on target. With 31% possession Blackburn had 11 shots on goal and 3 on target. Southampton should have won comfortably, but could easily have lost. One of the reasons why Southampton didn't concede, apart from Bazunu making three saves, was that Southampton defenders blocked five shots on goal.

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Maybe its because nobody on here listens to anything that isnt gushing praise of GB , while shifting all the blame onto southamptons defence.

Southamptom have the 2nd fewest shots conceded in the league this season. Add their 2 games inhand with their avg shots concede per game and they go to 4th. Its not unreasonable to expect your keeper might be able to perform to even a "par" level , like say Meisler at leeds. By literally any metric Bazunu has cost southampton a real shot at automatic promotion by playing like this for the season.

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

Maybe its because nobody on here listens to anything that isnt gushing praise of GB , while shifting all the blame onto southamptons defence.

Southamptom have the 2nd fewest shots conceded in the league this season. Add their 2 games inhand with their avg shots concede per game and they go to 4th. Its not unreasonable to expect your keeper might be able to perform to even a "par" level , like say Meisler at leeds. By literally any metric Bazunu has cost southampton a real shot at automatic promotion by playing like this for the season.

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Wouldn't agree with that reading to be honest. There's far more negative stuff on here about him than positive. It's an odd one to be honest. Not sure why Bazunu gets more attention than, say, Nathan Collins, who has also had a fairly ropey few seasons. Seems to be a desire to focus on Bazunu's weaknesses rather than his strengths and generally look for holes when the reality is, as plenty have been saying for a long time now, that he's a young lad with serious raw talent playing in a high pressure position and learning his trade. He's been good and bad this season. Another season in the Championship would be good for him at this stage I think.

I wonder is it because we have Kelleher and Bazunu vying for one spot. 2 choices makes it easier for things to go a bit polarized?

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

Maybe its because nobody on here listens to anything that isnt gushing praise of GB , while shifting all the blame onto southamptons defence.

Southamptom have the 2nd fewest shots conceded in the league this season. Add their 2 games inhand with their avg shots concede per game and they go to 4th. Its not unreasonable to expect your keeper might be able to perform to even a "par" level , like say Meisler at leeds. By literally any metric Bazunu has cost southampton a real shot at automatic promotion by playing like this for the season.

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That is a really unfair last line... it is a team game and as JRG rightly points out the defense has to shoulder some of the blame. There have been times watching Southampton's defense this season and last where it looks like a FIFA game when the controllers gone a bit wobbly. The strikers are also quite inefficient going on the spg stats in the link below.

On the defensive stats side of things, I have it that Southampton conceded the 4th/5th highest shots per game in the division, at 11.1 spg equal with WBA and pretty much on a par with Sunderland, Boro and Leicester. The fewest shots per game is Leeds at 9.5 and the highest is Rotherham at 16. Interestingly, from second best to second worst, the spread is only about 4 spg so is it really that significant a measure? The only thing i will say is that you can't on one hand deny Bazunu any credit for a clean sheet because he faced very few shots on goal while at the same time not giving some sort of dispensation for the games where his defence hasn't given him the first line of protection that is their job. Which is a regular occurrence from a couple of posters on the topic of Baz.

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/25...ship-2023-2024

While I am all for discussion and debate, there is a level of reasonableness that goes out the window on this site sometimes - in the race to be "right" - that is really offputting. We saw it with Kenny and it has long been the same way with Baz.

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

Maybe its because nobody on here listens to anything that isnt gushing praise of GB , while shifting all the blame onto southamptons defence.

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I would argue that this is not the case - there is hyper-criticism of Bazunu with no mention of his ability. Those who react to this hyper-criticism are well aware of the current weaknesses that he has - the kid has years of development ahead of him. He is one of the 2/3 youngest keepers in the top two divisions in England.

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

I wonder is it because we have Kelleher and Bazunu vying for one spot. 2 choices makes it easier for things to go a bit polarized?

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There shouldn't be any polarisation here - we have two good keepers (and Travers isn't half bad either) in the squad - you play the one who is in the best form (and IMO at the moment that is Kelleher).

[QUOTE=SkStu;2183611]That is a really unfair last line... it is a team game and as JRG rightly points out the defense has to shoulder some of the blame.
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the defence is doing their job though? their xg against is ranked 3rd best, shots against is 2nd best. what more can the defence/team do? the team unit as a whole is playing like a top 3 defensive side. Bazunus save percentage is 23rd - 62.8% and his goals Prevented is also 23rd at -(minus)10.8
as i said if gav played closer to par like mesiler who has save percentage ranked 4th - 71.8% but a goals prevented 12th at -0.7 then Southampton would be in the race for a league title

this isnt bashing bazunu but its clear that he has a problem with the most important attribute a keeper needs - shot stopping. there isnt really any question marks with his ball playing or sweeping.

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

the defence is doing their job though? their xg against is ranked 3rd best, shots against is 2nd best. what more can the defence/team do? the team unit as a whole is playing like a top 3 defensive side. Bazunus save percentage is 23rd - 62.8% and his goals Prevented is also 23rd at -(minus)10.8

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Seriously - how can you claim that a defence is doing its job when they leave a winger in 30 yards of space - allow him to pass it into a striker surrounded by FOUR defenders - the striker has an eternity to miskick the ball - fall over - get back onto his feet and strike the ball into the corner without any of the FOUR defenders making a single effort between them to get a challenge in ? - and that stuff happened three times in that game and Ipswich scored each time.

Now - in my opinion - Bazunu is still to blame for the defeat. I think he should have saved the second goal which would have left Southampton on the front foot and still 2-1 up, dominating the game with 20 minutes to go. But there have been numerous occasions when Southampton have defended in this fashion and Bazunu has not been responsible for losing the game.

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

as i said if gav played closer to par like mesiler who has save percentage ranked 4th - 71.8% but a goals prevented 12th at -0.7 then Southampton would be in the race for a league title

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Daniel Farke is a very good coach - way better than Russell Martin. He has Leeds far better organised defensively than Martin has with Southampton. Have a look at any Leeds game this season and you will rarely - if ever - see an opposition striker getting a free strike or header on the ball. Invariably the strike is blocked or the striker is under severe pressure when taking the shot / header. You are not going to stop every effort on goal - but the harder the defence makes it for the striker to get the ball away, the more saves your goalkeeper will make and the fewer goals that your team will concede. And Meslier is a good young keeper who will be a mainstay in the French team for the next 10/15 years.

Leeds lost to Coventry last Saturday and it was a perfect example of what I am talking about - there wasn't a single shot or header in the entire game where a Leeds defender (or a Coventry defender) didn't get in a challenge. Coventry's first goal was the result of a massive scramble in the Leeds area after a corner when it was bundled over the line -their second goal was a fast break after a period of sustained Leeds pressure when the winger came in unchallenged from the opposite wing of the attack to knock home a cross. The Leeds goal was scored after several blocks and challenges by defenders in the Coventry area. But throughout the game the strikers were under pressure - and defenders were making challenges and clearing the ball off the line. I don't think there has been a single incident where a Southampton defender has cleared a ball off the line this season.

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

this isnt bashing bazunu but its clear that he has a problem with the most important attribute a keeper needs - shot stopping. there isnt really any question marks with his ball playing or sweeping.

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Again - this has to be looked at in the context of the wider team. Southampton are not set up to defend and Martin does not have them properly organised or disciplined. When they do defend properly, they rarely concede - in the first 21 games of the 22 unbeaten they had 9 clean sheets and only conceded more than one goal in one game (a 2-2 away to Preston). When they don't defend they ship a lot of goals - of the 51 they have conceded 22 have come in just 6 games - and their defence was a brutal shambles in those six games. That is 22 in 6 games - and 29 in the remaining 33 games. As is always the case - the goalkeeper gets the blame - when defensive weakness contribute significantly to the problem. Being a goalkeeper is by far the most difficult position in football.

Bazunu is not the complete article - he is 22 years old and has years to go before he has reached his prime. Alisson didn't make his debut for Internacional until he was 21yrs and 5 months - at the same age Bazunu had played almost 80 league games - had just joined Southampton and had about 10 caps for Ireland. Alisson didn't become the starter for his Brazilian team for another year. He was 24 before he joined Roma and only played 37 games for them over 2 seasons before he joined Liverpool. At the age of 26 he had played less games than Bazunu has played up to the present day. Ederson was released by Sao Paulo at 18 years of age. He ended up signing as a youth team player with a second division club in Brazil. He spent the next four seasons playing 66 games in the Brazilian second division and for Rio Ave in the Primeria Liga. He then spent two season with the Benefica B team before making his debut in Portugal. Over the following two seasons he played 37 times for Benfica.

Now I have picked the two top keepers in the PL to demonstrate the progression and development of their careers. Bazunu has played far more and at a higher level at 22 years of age than Alisson had at 26 and Ederson had at 25. Bazunu is playing for a manager who doesn't coach his teams to defend and behind players who don't tackle/challenge/ throw their bodies in front of the ball. There is no way he could have confidence in his defence after last season and a lot of this season - that will impact on any keepers performance, making them more hesitant and slower to adjust because he doesn't know what to expect from his defence. Now - that does not mean he doesn't have flaws - every goalkeeper does - but his weaknesses are magnified because of the 10 outfield players he has in front of him. Martin knows the problems with his defence - they went out against Blackburn and stopped strikers getting clean shots on goal - the problem is they do not do this on a consistent basis every week and that exposes Bazunu.

As I said previously - I thought the move to Southampton was a good move for Bazunu - it has turned into its exact opposite - and he is stuck there for the next 2/3 years. However, from an Ireland perspective - Bazunu is a young developing goalkeeper who could develop into a top class keeper and the best we have had since Shay Given - he is not there yet. Remember Kelleher is 25 - and has been in a much better position than Bazunu since last year. Kelleher is playing well - and deserves to start for Ireland - and Bazunu is an excellent back-up to have - and he could well end up as a better keeper than Kelleher.

Give the kid a break and if you want to do a deep dive and be hyper-critical then there are another 21 players who probably deserve it more at the moment (with the possible exception of Ferguson - who is still a kid - and Ogbene who has really exceeded my expectations for one).

Bazunu is playing for a manager who doesn't coach his teams to defend and behind players who don't tackle/challenge/ throw their bodies in front of the ball.


you have been presented with every shred of available evidence that this isnt the case this season, there really is no helping you. im out.

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

you have been presented with every shred of available evidence that this isnt the case this season, there really is no helping you. im out.

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Martin is known for not bothering about defending - Southampton don't defend, neither did Swansea or the franchise Dons. He brought in Colin Calderwood to help with coaching the defence - but there is only so much you can do when the manager wants to focus only on attack. When things are going well they will get away with it - when they are not Southampton ship a stack of goals.

And if you want evidence - look at the Ipswich - the problems are there for all to see.

JD and Stu. It’s worth saying that xG against is a really really imperfect stat. And it’s used like it’s gospel. A good example is that Bazunu wasn’t hurt for that one that he let in against Plymouth which had a .97 xG or whatever. But equally it works the other way, it doesn’t factor in players behind the ball, time to shoot etc. so in an area where most teams might have defensive protection, if the defenders aren’t there, the xG doesn’t change. So it’s definitely true that two teams with an identical xG against could have a totally different level of difficulty for a goalkeeper.

It’s also true that a lot of Bazunu’s qualities, his ability to come out and clean up, his speed and strength and command of his area - they’re never reflected in xG against, cause shots are the only metric which count towards it, so if as a keeper, you deny a goal by stopping an attack before it the shot happens - you get no credit for it…

I don't agree it's used like gospel. For starters, you're absolutely right in the anomalies you point out - but I've flagged the Plymouth example before (and that I don't think it adjusts for deflections). I've also flagged that I don't believe it to the 0.1 - but when your stat is such an outlier (we're talking 5 worse than the worst of the pack, and then there's three outliers) then it's really hard to ignore.

xG does at least claim to factor in defensive position btw - I don't think it's correct to say "If the defenders aren't there, the xG doesn't change". See here for example - "Some of these characteristics/variables include [...] Did the defence have time to get in position?"

Agree on sweeping too - not convinced on command of his area though. Practically no other keeper claims as few crosses - so maybe there's headers coming in that other keepers would have stopped at source

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

. Not sure why Bazunu gets more attention than, say, Nathan Collins, who has also had a fairly ropey few seasons.

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I think it's because no-one is claiming Collins' mistakes are, say, the midfield's fault. There's nothing much to debate about Collins because there's far more agreement on his he's doing.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

On the defensive stats side of things, I have it that Southampton conceded the 4th/5th highest shots per game in the division,

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I was looking at shots on target only FWIW, on the basis that other shots aren't of concern to the keeper.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

but when your stat is such an outlier (we're talking 5 worse than the worst of the pack, and then there's three outliers) then it's really hard to ignore.

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Question for you stu - what do statisticians tend to do with outliers ?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

does at least claim to factor in defensive position btw - I don't think it's correct to say "If the defenders aren't there, the xG doesn't change". See here for example - "Some of these characteristics/variables include [...] Did the defence have time to get in position?"

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A much more important factor is - if defenders are in position do they attempt to get a block in or challenge the striker?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Agree on sweeping too - not convinced on command of his area though. Practically no other keeper claims as few crosses - so maybe there's headers coming in that other keepers would have stopped at source

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The sweeper aspect of Bazunu's game was coached up at Man City - and I would agree that he does not, yet, command his area. However, the goalkeepers command of his area is an aspect of the game that has change over the past couple of decades. Go back to the 70s and 80s and a goalkeeper would take out anything in front of them to get to the ball - that does not happen now. This is partly the result of keepers expecting to get a free out every time they are touched and worried about committing a foul if they actually do drive to the ball. However, from all the footage I have looked at, Southampton's problems is not being able to deal with crosses - it is stopping shots in the 15-25 yard range. They don't close down attackers, they don't put in challenges and they don't block shots. Opposition strikers know they have an eternity to set-up, pick their spot and strike the ball cleanly - and when you can do that you will score more often than not.

Now - again - shot stopping is a weakness in Bazunu's game - but I would argue that this is currently because of his lack of confidence in his defence, making him having to shift position, causing him to be hesitant for a split second, which causes him to be a fraction late diving for the ball. From what I can see his reaction saves, when he doesn't have time to see the striker setting up, are much better. He does need to work on this shot stopping - and on collecting crosses (Travers has a big problem with this - and Kelleher isn't great either) - he also needs to be much more vocal in calling out the actions of his defence. But I don't think at this stage that Southampton is the best place for him to learn and develop - unfortunately he is stuck there.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I think it's because no-one is claiming Collins' mistakes are, say, the midfield's fault. There's nothing much to debate about Collins because there's far more agreement on his he's doing.

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Defending is not the job of the 3/4/5 defenders - it starts at the very front and is the job of all 11 players. Collins does have faults but he is also a very talented footballer - again - he is only a kid (who has played over 100 games - 70 of them in the PL over the past 3 years) Collins is the same age as Bazunu, and O'Brien, and a year older than Omobamidele and Feisty. In terms of the Irish team, the weakness in midfield does cause a lot of problems for the defence and the keeper - no matter who they are.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I was looking at shots on target only FWIW, on the basis that other shots aren't of concern to the keeper.

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This is just not true - every strike of a ball and every header is of concern to the goalkeeper, whether it is on target or not - it impacts on the keeper's confidence in his defence and it impact on the keeper's judgement in terms of movement and positioning. A keeper who ignores any strike off target without looking at what led up to it - is not doing their job. I posted the stat that Onana has faced 62 shots on goal in two games against Liverpool - imaging his thought process every time Liverpool launch an attack - 'oh sh*t, here they come again'.

Second goal for Watford - commentary - ‘Kone - he’s got loads of space - far too much space’ as he sets-up, picks his spot and slides it into the bottom right hand corner past Bazunu.

fans not happy with him again... he really needs a bit of form before the play offs.

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

fans not happy with him again... he really needs a bit of form before the play offs.

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boring...

do you just live to criticise him. Can't get on here quick enough to put him down. Your post never come across that even watch the games.

Deflected goal for the first so you will be delighted with the negative psxg stats he'll get for that.

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Originally Posted by Asterix

boring...

do you just live to criticise him. Can't get on here quick enough to put him down. Your post never come across that even watch the games.

Deflected goal for the first so you will be delighted with the negative psxg stats he'll get for that.

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LOL. i was responding to JRG who seems to think everything is southamptons fault. genuinely is it too much to expect your keeper can save that second goal? he needs a confidence boost before the pressure cooker of the play offs . lets hope his form improves in their run in

Wasn't great for Coventry's goal midweek either - a high cross into the box from out on the byline which was sidefooted home from inside the six-yard box. The player was unmarked so you could blame the defence again, but the keeper surely can't let a high cross travel right the way across the six-yard box without coming for it.

All good experience, touch wood.

No keeper is coming for that ball ffs.

Can't agree. If it's the keeper and an attacker in the six-yard box, the keeper has to come out tops. If you can't come for that, what can you come for? And remember Bazunu comes for fewer crosses than pretty any other Championship keeper.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Wasn't great for Coventry's goal midweek either - a high cross into the box from out on the byline which was sidefooted home from inside the six-yard box. The player was unmarked so you could blame the defence again, but the keeper surely can't let a high cross travel right the way across the six-yard box without coming for it.

All good experience, touch wood.

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Nonsense.

FWIW, I think Watford’s second today looked soft (and worryingly familiar) and I really think he should be getting a hand to it, but the cross that led to Coventry’s goal really wasn’t the keeper’s ball to take. His right back disappeared without trace and he was beaten from close range from an unmarked attacker. That really was down to terrible defending.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Can't agree. If it's the keeper and an attacker in the six-yard box, the keeper has to come out tops. If you can't come for that, what can you come for? And remember Bazunu comes for fewer crosses than pretty any other Championship keeper.

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middle of the 6 yard box maybe, but in % terms I think very few keepers would have gone for that. You just have to trust that your defenders don’t let men go. If you’re watching that in real time you think it’s a relatively routine cross that gets cleared at the back post. In hindsight it’d have been worth for given the rubbish defending, but very few keepers would be coming for that.

The fact(?) that he comes for fewer crosses has little to do with it. More sophistry there.

*going for

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Nonsense.

FWIW, I think Watford’s second today looked soft (and worryingly familiar) and I really think he should be getting a hand to it, but the cross that led to Coventry’s goal really wasn’t the keeper’s ball to take. His right back disappeared without trace and he was beaten from close range from an unmarked attacker. That really was down to terrible defending.

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yeah agree 2nd one today is poor on his part. similar ish to the winner against ipswich that seemed to go in in slow motion.

By the way - if you want to see a goalkeeping performance - look at the two keepers in the Burnley/Brighton game today

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

LOL. i was responding to JRG who seems to think everything is southamptons fault. genuinely is it too much to expect your keeper can save that second goal? he needs a confidence boost before the pressure cooker of the play offs . lets hope his form improves in their run in

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I wasn't making any comment on Bazunu and the goal - I was merely pointing out the comments of the commentator - who said exactly the same thing I have said on here before. It is plain to see the problem in Southampton's defence - three players around striker and he had all day to pick his spot and strike the ball.

That said - I do think that Bazunu should have saved it. It is the case that he does seem a split second slow getting down to the ball - but I will repeat - I think this is being caused by the wider problems in the Southampton defence and Bazunu not knowing what the striker is going to do. If someone gets in a challenge in that position then Bazunu makes up the split second - if not then Bazunu has to wait and see where the ball is going, causing a delay in response.

This is why I think Bazunu is in a bad situation for his development (which is what we are concerned about - not Southampton's results) - the more he reacts that fraction of a second late, the more it becomes ingrained in his play and the harder it will be to correct it. He really does need to be in a team that puts defending first - so that his shot-stopping skills are developed. Unfortunately that is not going to happen at Southampton.

Maybe the best thing for Bazunu at this stage is for Southampton to get promoted - buy a new keeper and Bazunu gets to go out on loan to a Championship team - but it would have to be a team that tries to defend properly - e.g. WBA - or to a lesser extent Coventry, Millwall, QPR (if Begovic was to retire) or Hull. Bristol City would be another option - but they have O'Leary - or Sunderland - but they have Patterson.

Just looking at the PL table - if Everton were to get relegated - and Dyche to survive as manager - Pickford would be gone and it would be a good spot for Bazunu.

But I am just surmising here - Bazunu is contracted to Southampton until 2027.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

. . . Maybe the best thing for Bazunu at this stage is for Southampton to get promoted - buy a new keeper and Bazunu gets to go out on loan to a Championship team - but it would have to be a team that tries to defend properly - e.g. WBA - or to a lesser extent Coventry, Millwall, QPR (if Begovic was to retire) or Hull. Bristol City would be another option - but they have O'Leary - or Sunderland - but they have Patterson.

Just looking at the PL table - if Everton were to get relegated - and Dyche to survive as manager - Pickford would be gone and it would be a good spot for Bazunu.

But I am just surmising here - Bazunu is contracted to Southampton until 2027.

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If Southampton are promoted they'll replace Bazunu. Championship loan clubs could not afford his wages (£50k?), even if subsidised. I doubt any would be interested. Relegated Everton would opt for experience - as Southampton should have done in the first instance.
PS: As a matter of interest, how much do you reckon Bazunu is worth on the transfer market?

Edit: Bazunu earns between £20k-£25K according to Football League World and Salary Sport. My guess was poor.

I think there’s merit in elatedscum’s question about the coaching he’s getting. His game has flatlined (at best) when he should be making progress. He’s clearly an exceptional talent, as evidenced by his Portsmouth stint.

I think the season can be summarised as leaking goals but not really to blame, then solid and now leaking goals again and definite questions over his culpability.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think there’s merit in elatedscum’s question about the coaching he’s getting. His game has flatlined (at best) when he should be making progress. He’s clearly an exceptional talent, as evidenced by his Portsmouth stint.

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I have raised this before - his goalkeeping coach at Southampton, Dean Thornton, never played at professional level - he gave up football at 19 because of injuries and went into coaching. Now - he might be very good - but unlike other positions on the pitch - I think that you really need the experience of having played as a goalkeeper at the professional level to be a capable goalkeeping coach.

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Originally Posted by Snapshot

If Southampton are promoted they'll replace Bazunu.

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I wouldn't be so sure - Southampton will have limited funds and I think they would have to spend their money on defence and midfield (and striker if Adams leaves) - but with Martin's tactics any goalkeeper will suffer in the PL.

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Originally Posted by Snapshot

Championship loan clubs could not afford his wages (£50k?), even if subsidised. I doubt any would be interested.

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My understanding is that he is on £20K a week - which is the top end of the Championship wages.

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Originally Posted by Snapshot

Relegated Everton would opt for experience - as Southampton should have done in the first instance.

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Southampton had experience and it was getting them nowhere - in fact they took a conscious decision to get younger last season - they problem is that you need a spine of experience running through the team and they took that out. 21 is very young for a PL keeper - but as S..88 said - Bazunu was exceptional at Portsmouth. But a season in the championship on loan might have been worthwhile. However, when Southampton came in with the £10m offer - Man City were going to cash in.

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Originally Posted by Snapshot

PS: As a matter of interest, how much do you reckon Bazunu is worth on the transfer market?

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Its hard to predict - and I don't really care to be honest - his value is irrelevant to the Irish team - his ability is what is important. I don't see him leaving Southampton for the foreseeable future thought with another 3 years on his contract.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

I have raised this before - his goalkeeping coach at Southampton, Dean Thornton, never played at professional level - he gave up football at 19 because of injuries and went into coaching. Now - he might be very good - but unlike other positions on the pitch - I think that you really need the experience of having played as a goalkeeper at the professional level to be a capable goalkeeping coach.

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Let's take a look at the goalkeeping coaches in the Premier League

Team	Goalkeeping Coach
Arsenal	Iñaki Caña
Aston Villa	Francisco Javier Garcia
Bournemouth	Neil Moss
Brentford	Manu Sotelo
Brighton & Hove Albion	Ricard Segarra
Burnley	Jelle ten Rouwelaar
Chelsea	Hilario
Crystal Palace	Dean Kiely
Everton	Alan Kelly, Jnr
Fulham	Hugo Olivera
Liverpool	John Achterberg
Luton Town	Kevin Pilkington
Manchester City	Richard Wright
Manchester United	Richard Hartis
Newcastle United	Adam Bartlett
Nottingham Forest	Rui Barbosa
Sheffield United	Matt Duke
Tottenham Hotspur	Rob Burch
West Ham United	Xavi Valero
Wolverhampton Wanderers	Neil Cutler

Not a lot of Premier League experience there, quite a few of them don't have wikipedia pages, so their careers weren't enough to write about
The current head of goalkeeping at the FA, Tim Dittmer, has underage caps for Ireland, don't think he ever played at a higher level than non league

Liverpool’s assistant goalkeeping coach won over 100 caps for Brazil. Do the assistant coaches have higher level experience? ;)

Klopp, Emery, Postecoglu, Howe and others never played Premier League either. Wouldn't trust them fellas

And don't get me started on Mourinho, Hodgson, Villas-Boas and Brian Kerr...

Where did I say 'Premier League experience' ?

here is the quote 'I think that you really need the experience of having played as a goalkeeper at the professional level to be a capable goalkeeping coach'

Futhermore - I didn't rule it out the possibility of a non-professional goalkeeper becoming a good goalkeeping coach. I was referring specifically to Dean Thornton - who does not appear to be doing a particularly good job with Bazunu.

If the stats guys are going to throw crap then at least make it relevant crap.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

Where did I say 'Premier League experience' ?

here is the quote 'I think that you really need the experience of having played as a goalkeeper at the professional level to be a capable goalkeeping coach'

Futhermore - I didn't rule it out the possibility of a non-professional goalkeeper becoming a good goalkeeping coach. I was referring specifically to Dean Thornton - who does not appear to be doing a particularly good job with Bazunu.

If the stats guys are going to throw crap then at least make it relevant crap.

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Not a lot professional level experience in that list either, as mentioned by the lack of wikipedia entries for a few of them
And I made a point that Dittmer never played above non league level

But is Wikipedia the measure of a good goalkeeping coach?

It's becoming more common for coaches to have less, or less impressive, professional experience.

The Premier League is a billion pound, hugely competitive, industry. I don't think they're routinely hiring beginners in key positions. Or if they are, then a lack of a Wikipedia entry doesn't define it. Let them be judged on their own merits

The point I was making was that their careers weren't notable enough for a Wikipedia entry, but they're still top quality coaches

Fairy nuff; I think I'm agreeing with you so! Apologies!

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Not a lot professional level experience in that list either, as mentioned by the lack of wikipedia entries for a few of them

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Not true - I think all of the above list of goalkeeping coaches were professional goalkeepers during their careers.