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Scrufil, there were around 25 vaccines in stage 3 trials mentioned by the WHO in August (I think), so the Brits will not have anything like as much leverage as that. Besides, given the pharma manufacturing capacity here, we're hardly toothless on that front.
The Brits are in no position to push the issue out too far as they are really on the edge both on covid and brexit. I think they expected EU solidarity to fold long before now so are throwing the toys out of the pram. Dont blink and they'll quietly go and sit on the bold step! As John mentions, biopharma production capacity here could be a significant factor in negotiations too.
I shouldnt go near a subject like 'assisted suicide' as it's a very personal and emotive issue. Its a poor title to have been used as it evokes ummm different associations. If somthing like 'compassionate end of life support' had been used there would be less fear and anguish caused, generally among those who are not actually in the situation where such consideration is happening. DNRs, withdrawing various therapeutics, administering necessary pain relief for acute, severe pain, at end of life times, that will all hasten end of life situations, could all be classed as 'assisted suicide', even murder, if someone wants to class this or see it all in that way, but it happens to prevent unnecessary suffering for patients and indeed loved ones.
There will be balances and checks in any proposal, and 'assisted suicide' is not a forgone conclusion that will become a proocol, eg 2 or 3 consultant agreement that a person has a terminal illness and is entering an end of life phase. That pain and suffering is an absolute for this person. Psychiatry and Psychology specialists will be involved with patient and family. That the patient has a back out option. It's often presented as an argument against, that patients will choose this option to not be a burden to family. My experience and the evidence shows that loved ones are most likely to seek to overturn decisions like DNRs, 'assisted suicide', compassionate treatment, and so on when it comes to the moment. Its does step on peoples consciences which is good as its shows the greater need to preserve life and its not an easy decision.
Things happen every day in healthcare that would seem barbaric to those not trained in the how, what, why. I think that the medical profession can be rubbish at explaining things, try to use terms that minimise emotion but can actually do the opposite. The vast majority of healthcare people are seriously compassionate, if they come across as 'out of touch' with emotional issues it is more than likely their coping mechanism as its easier to be talk about a case than about a person! Doesnt mean that the humanity is vacant! I'm not really sure whether this is appropriate to post ona few levels but I do think when the opportunity to try and clarify things to worried people, like yerself Scrufil (and I'm not attemption to change your mind on anything, just presenting additional angles) that it is the thing to do and for a broader people than just the individual. I will though say no more on the difficult subject at hand here, but using PMs is grand by me.
"We're in this for months and years" - Prof Sam McConkey on Newstalk this morning.
The headline - "Top doctor warns Dublin could stay at Level 3 for 'months and years' over R number" - is slightly misleading as he doesn't explicitly say that; in fact, he says that "to be stabilised [...] at Level 3 for a long time like 6 months or a year or more is not a solution to this"
But he doesn't really give any real way out of it. That would have obvious impacts on lots of stuff, of which the LoI is a relative minor one, but it would most definitely be hugely impacted. It'd be impractical, even.
Its indicative of the 'panic button' mode growing but not helpful to sound like a situation is being over played - people and public just switch off and they are the key to the solution. Media have a responsibility to not sensationalise!
McConkey always strikes me as a guy who is loving his media exposure and his position as head prophet of doomQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Sam Mcconkey said in March we could have 4 million infections and 120000 deaths, as a rule I don't argue with the opinions of experts but are we to take his obvious always worst case scenario opinion seriously??
In fairness, if we didn't lockdown, we could have had that.Quote:
Originally Posted by joey B
I think if people had continued to act as if we were still "living with covid" as the plan was intended, we'd never has seen a major rise in cases. There's two options now, people take the level 3 seriously, take some personal responsibility, limit interactions and the case numbers stabilise and reduce in the next three weeks, or we go to level 5 and everything shuts down again for 3 weeks. The danger is that either option becomes a repeating cycle until there's a widely used vaccine, herd immunity, a cure or the virus naturally weakens and hospitalisations are no longer common.
As WAR said above, level 5 now allows for an exemption for elite sport to continue.
So we could possibly plan for a 36 game season next year, but you'll probably have the likes of Sligo and Waterford etc crying again that they can't afford to. Sligo is the funny one as they raised 80k and then spent it on Junior!
So if we're still without regular crowds in 2021, which seems likely, where does the LOI go?!
Honest question. What is the point of an LOI season without fans?
A year out of your career is a lot for a guy who is looking at a short cars at anyway.
Plus I'd rather watch my team on tv then not at all.
For most Liverpool and man u fans it doesn't make any difference once you add in the crowd noise for them.
I've just finished watching the Slovakia - Ireland game. The whole time all I could think about is how little interest I had in it. This was a massive game but it fel like a training game. Probably not helped by the lack of crowd noise in a stadium that bounced the echoes around quite well. I've found it difficult to focus on our games on tv, and the same for game sin other countries. Obviously the fact that we are doing so poorly has an impact on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
I get that for the layers its a job,and losing a year of an otherwise short career is awful, but what really is the purpose of the LOI? It seems like the only reason we played this season out was to make sure the European teams were decided.
And someone got to win the league, also someone gets promoted, European places for next year.
I get where u are coming from but I'd rather watch rovers play on tv then not at all
Do they though? It comes back to the question, what is the point of football. Do we play it just to decide a winner, or is it meant as entertainment? If we're looking at another season of football without fans then we have to question the point. Realistically we won't be cancelling a season but theres logic there.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
European teams, the title and promotion on merit for 1st Division teams. Legue prizemony isnt good but it is graded on league finish. UEFA require domestic leagues to be decided. I also would prefer to watch games, especially my team than nothing at all. There is some benefit to that in terms of mental health for what little or much that might differ for individuals. To respect the league in itself and not show contempt by not playing it is important!!
The money was raised to try and keep us up and it looks like it’s been successful. If we have no gate receipts next year we’ll have no squad of any note as we rely a lot on them. Can’t see us getting Europe. One half season of having no crowds and gate receipts is somewhat bearable but I’m not really sure how the likes of us with no Europe or large investor are supposed to get a squad together for next season when we have no idea what crowds we will be able to have to base our budgets off.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lilywhites
An extended period with no gate receipts should see nearly every club in the league reduced to fully amateur status and still facing financial ruin. Good thing the FAI have been squirrelling money away for a rainy day. :struggle:
But isn't that what Gino is doing by calling it the Dying with Dignity bill? It's other people putting labels on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
You can put whatever label you want on it, certain people will always insist you're out to murder your granny.
None. There is no point in football without it. Either allow us to pack stadiums as normal or cancel the league for a year.Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
None whatsoever, it doesn't add up and how can clubs plan and budget for next season with no certainty of what it's going to look like.....Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
What is the point of a league 1 or 2 in UK with no fans or a scotish championship?
Don't know that either.
I guess there's a hope crowds will be back by Christmas. But that's looking less likely now.
I meant that retorically, I don't believe we should consider not playing our league.
Everyone on here is a loi fan, this league is more important to me then the premier league and not playing would play into the hands of those people who despise our league
My answer's genuine though. I'm in the "What's the point?" camp. We're all fans of the league, but head over heart has to happen at times. A whole season without fans would be disastrous. It'd be financially ruinous. It'd have no real impact on barstoolers who (a) don't care and (b) will quickly see that one behind-closed-doors match is much like another.
No other industry is being forced to open while being told it can't let its customers in so far as I can see
I think it depends on whether the league gets financial assistance from either the FAI or else from an outside source.
Would RTÉ fund a full season on watch LOI, and pay the clubs a stipend for the games? Would clubs ask their loyal fans to pay for a season ticket membership on the basis that they might get to see some "loive" games somewhere down the road in the season, covid permitting of course?
If there is no season next year it would be difficult to see the season starting up ever again, in my view.
Do you mean that if next season doesn't happen, the LoI will never return?Quote:
Originally Posted by placid casual
I can't see why that would be the case.
Do we know what engagement there is with WatchLoI? It'd be key to whether RTÉ would fund a full season of it next year (and remember they're surely likely to be down cash next year, like most companies, so they can't just run with it because we want them to)
I really want to make a UCD joke here, but I'm not finding the words.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I can see clubs being shut up, never to return! Take clubs as businesses and if they were to close up for a year it is a brand new launch and battle to get (re)established. Recruitment is massive and with every club looking to similar pools of talent. Would be better ticking over with youths. Out of sight out of mind!
It's been great for us this season. Crowds slightly up on projections.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
League to be extended a week; new fixture list out later today.
Seems a little bit unnecessary as only two games have been postponed so far I think?
Over 1000 cases reported today, so the numbers are still getting worse, not better.
We only hit 1000 twice in the first wave, and one of those was when there was a backlog of results from Germany. (The caveat of course is that 1000 reported today is probably a better measure than 1000 reported in April)
We're in a race to finish the league before Level 5 it seems. And I don't really see why elite sport should get a free pass at that stage, but it does seem that change to the rules has already been flagged.
Level 5 can’t be far off now with those numbers. I think Christmas will be a total mess this year as the house party’s will just get worse not better.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
With 1000 here in the south and in the north the time has come for cross border cooperation between Stormont and Leinster House to do a coordinated response to solve this once and for all. Maybe going up to level 4 instead of level 5 might be achievable?
Lockdown soon or longer and more extensive and damaging lockdown over Christmas and New Year- the choice is still there! Add a week to midterm break during a shorter sharper lockdown to ease things also. Tick Tock!!Quote:
Originally Posted by D24Saint
Don't think Pats would have been clear in time to play us.. and with Dundalk having such a packed schedule it all gets very messy very quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I would have no great confidence we'll be able to finish the season as a league in a satisfactory way- it seems inevitable more clubs will be hit with cases. Harps and Derry vulnerable given case rates in the Northwest but the numbers are bad everywhere and it's the age profile of players that are seeing the worst rates. It's an absolute balls with no good answers. If we keep extending the season who is going to pay? Clubs have feck all income.
As for next season.. hard to see how it'll work. Keeping the underage leagues going nearly more important so players don't lose a year's development. Hopefully the pandemic peters out and we can start getting back to normal, so would be in no rush to get the league going- we have a long time before we need to have qualifiers for Europe in 2022 after all.
Im actually not as worried about next season and feel crowds will return on a graduated basis, depending on when the season it starts and finishes. An April/May start with either a truncated season, play in to December, or start as usual but with no crowds initially. It wont make budget projections too easy. It is this particular covid hump (to state it mildly) that is scary. Neck on the line again but come next late spring I think we will have adapted sufficiantly at minimum, maybe even have vaccine/effective treatment protocols. Hard for the league to make decisions based on gut feeling or in hope.
Figuring out why some are asymtomatic and some are on deaths door with the same virus, or if reinfected can asymptomatic people end up in trouble, will be fascinating stuff, could be key to figuring this all out but raises all sorts of ethical dilemmas...do you carve up a population based on resistance and let some get on with things and restrict others, dystopian stuff.
See that the NI assembly have allowed 600 fans to attend the NI game tonight in Windsor Park which is a brave move on their part but the correct move unlike the GAA up there!
Good job Windsor isnt in Derry/Strabane - as daft as that sounds covid or not! Ukraine had 20k back at their international game v Germany. Seeing the impact of these type examples will no doubt dictate things elsewhere.
If dundalk take points off bohs next Friday rovers could win the league with a win against Derry with practically no one in the stadium to even congratulate them.
It has the makings of one of the best worst nights for fans.
Let's say harps win a playoff and stay up , a huge achievement AGAIN and no one to acknowledge it.
I'm 100% in favour of our league goin gv ahead like other leagues but it doesn't make it any less hard.
With the exception of shels I'd feel t he same about any group of fans