Is Neil Francis saying here that Ireland should have cheated to win against New Zealand last week: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugb...-29798965.html
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Is Neil Francis saying here that Ireland should have cheated to win against New Zealand last week: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugb...-29798965.html
Cheating is probably a bit strong, more a comment on how to play the referee, something which a certain Richie McCaw does brilliantly every game!Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
He's advocating what could be described as simulation though, isn't he?
Yes, he's saying they should have broken the rules, cheated, whatever.
Rugby lost any self-proclaimed moral high ground it might have had a long time ago. Like any sport, they'll do whatever they can get away with to win.
Don't really see much reason to keep highlighting instances of their bullsh*t though. I'd have thought it was obvious to pretty much everybody, given how blatant it is.
Running down the clock in the last minute of a game is not cheating in my book. It's something similar to football, running the ball to the corner flag and 'arsing about with it there, no intent to play the game just run down the clock, frustrate your opponent and hopefully win a free kick or corner or throw in.
Francis was advocating that some irish player should have stopped the momentum of the AB's, even to the point of giving away a penalty.
Foul play is not cheating.
On the money, Geysir!Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I agree (sorry Tets!).
I do wonder if we had been the attacking side whether Owens would have penalised us I know we were in their half and notionally going forward, but it was clear it was a clock run down exercise. But if we had been doing the same thing to get into a drop goal situation, a la Munster at Northampton, would Owens have seen things differently?
I dont think they caught breath to even think about cheating. As soon as NZ got that penalty there was an air of inevitability. Ireland had been out on their feet from about the 65th minute but somehow managed to keep plugging away because of the points they were ahead, but they were really fceked when not in possession, as soon as the penalty was given they were at 6s and 7s trying organise and get across that I dont think they got any time to even think of going in over the top, a high tackle, running offside etc. I dont really remember many rucks once NZ got the ball just constant running and movement off the ball, so given away something at the ruck didnt seem possible, but it all happened so quick even for us watching i cant be sure on that!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
The respect for the officials and the opposition, the maturity to lose with grace and win with humility is my son experiences as a teenage rugby player and is something most football teams can only dream of.
Citing poor behaviour, and we are all human, is clutching at straws and these anecdotal examples does not mean they will do what ever they can to win - far from it.
it was this section that I was referring toI interpreted the "obligingly rolling out of the way to get back onside" as "we should have stayed offside (i.e. illegally) to block the New Zealand break". Not sure what the "gap in O'Driscoll's CV" he's referring to is eitherQuote:
I understand that Ireland were out on their feet, but if McCaw had been playing for Ireland he would have gone in to the breakdown and killed the ball – killed it stone dead. He might have given away a penalty, he might have been carded (not possible) but he would have stopped the All Blacks' momentum dead. It would have meant that having got traction and momentum with their wide game, they would have had to try and go again – very hard to do. They went to the extreme of the pitch four times. They did so unhindered by one Irish player who never thought of stopping their progress illegally. That is what New Zealand do if they have to. So too Australia and South Africa. It doesn't cost them a thought.
I saw Irish players obligingly rolling out of the way to get back onside. We played that 100 seconds like gentlemen, we should have played it like gurriers. It was one of the few gaps in O'Driscoll's CV. I am sure that in the helter-skelter he alone on his team would have had the sangfroid to go in and do something, legal or illegal, to stop New Zealand. It didn't happen.
I imagine the gap means beating nz.he has done almost everything else.
He didn't say that THe cheating bit is out of his game as in not on his CV because he follows up that if he was on the field he would have done this to win the game.
If citing examples of poor behaviour is not allowed, what evidence do you have to support your claim that football teams behave with less maturity than rugby teams?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia
At pro level from watching every Saturday - if I were to cite regular incidents of poor sportsmanship I'd be banned by the Mods for over use of the forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
And at junior level I have two boys - one a soccer player and the other rugby - there is a gulf of difference from the attitude and respect of the players, to the abuse of the ref and extending to the appalling bias/abuse I witness of from parents on the side at football games.
You know the bit on telly on a Saturday afternoon where they're not allowed to show the game but as soon as the final whistle blows at 4:50pm they go live and give a match synopsis? All you ever see is the players shaking hands. Once you actually look out for what the players do after a game, I think you'd be surprised how much good old-fashioned sportsmanship there is.
Of course there's some despicable behaviour in football but more often than not it is limited to the same usual suspects.
Point fully taken about underage stuff, although some kids' football coaches I know teach their kids not just to shake hands, but to shake hands properly and to look their opponent in the eye. Yer man Antonio Mantero of www.thecoachdiary.com has this as one of his cornerstones.
My own kid played in a tag rugby tournament (Under 8) for his school last week and after every game the whole thing was about each side going "3 cheers for the other team". It was very sweet and very touching. There were lots of parents, most enthusiastically supporting the kids. It was very audible but no tension or guff like is common in underage football. I heard one story about a kid who was asked why central midfield was his favourite position. He replied that it was because it meant he was always twenty yards from his dad on one touchline and his uncle on the other! Probably an urban myth, but telling enough nonetheless.
But my beef was very capably highlighted by Eamon Sweeney in an article I linked on this thread several months ago. He quoted the IRFU's annual report banging on about rugby's superior values. In my opinion, games don't have values, people do. Better educated people (educated in the broadest sense) tend to behave better than less educated people. Rugby is played by better educated people. As pro rugby becomes more and more commercial, these values disappear. The same cr@p that annoys us about football has been increasingly evident in pro rugby, but I still come across people blind to this who say they won't watch football because of the cheating. Sweeney nailed it - in rugby it's seen as a better class of cheating.
I also think the referee respect thing is overblown. The worst teatment of refs in football in GAA and football is terrible, no dispute. But the uniform and sterile way of interacting with the ref in rugby irritates me. The refs, particularly Nigel Owens, treat grown-up players like kids sometimes. In most football games there's fair banter between players and refs, especially domestic games when there's a common language. My own experience of playing several hundred games of junior football is more like:
Me: FFS ref, that's a clear push.
Ref: shut up keeper, I don't slag you off for sh1t handling
Both of us would laugh and move on.
The flipside of referee respect in rugby is that very little of that type of exchange happens.
There's plenty of good and bad in all sports and if you look at them without an agenda this is evident. My issue with rugby isn't an anti-rugby agenda at all, it's an anti-"rugby guff" agenda and I actually think the view I've spouted on about here since this thread started is now much more of a mainstream view.
One last point: if I was a football manager I'd insist on my players doing a line of honour into the tunnel for the away team. On one hand it's sporting but as a motivational tool being made to face your victorious opponent if you lose is a huge incentive to make sure you win! OK, I'd fear there'd be occasions when there'd be a scrap but still...
I agree with the vast majority of your post. I would say that my experience of underage level rugby is a genuine respect for the ref. And I'm sure there are petty refs in football as well as rugby, I can recall a few. I think I've seen more good natured exchanges in (Rob Kearney last Saturday) professional rugby than in professional football.
Of course I can see the example of the exchange you cite happening - though my kids are in London and this type of cultural exchange would be a very rare occurrence on a football pitch here.
My gripe is the hackneyed criticism and denigration of rugby on this thread as some spurious means to elevate the values of football.
I'm not trying to elevate the value of football, I'm trying to argue that rugby doesn't entirely deserve the pedestal of virtue on which many of its supporters have placed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia
My gripe is with people (not you) who are willing to ignore the faults of rugby because it doesn't suit them to admit that the game has its faults too. Or who lament the influence of football for some of the things becoming more prevalent in rugby. Witness refs like Nigel Owens telling people 'this isn't soccer'.
To reference a previous post, if you believe that rugby players won't do whatever it takes to win, i respectfully disagree, and believe that there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.
Exactly this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I think most people's beef with football is the constant barracking of the ref and the ridiculous diving that goes mostly uncondemned. Compare this with rugby, where, to rugby's great credit, the microphones on referees and panels for cited incidents have helped/forced the players to self monitor while on the pitch.
I would love it if FIFA/UEFA would set these things in motion in football, and I genuinely believe it would eradicate so much of both of these problems.
Well, as it stands now, Uefa and Fifa not only are inactive but they actually favour acts of cheating and blatant simulation with reward.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
What Francis was talking about in his article was not cheating.
Francis was talking about lying on the ball and giving away clever penalties. That is every bit as much cheating as diving or whatever, the only difference is that it's accepted as part of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
While I completely agree with Geysir and Stutts that what Francis advocated wasn't cheating, what is certainly cheapening rugby is the actions of Mark McCafferty and the PRL. Their public statements and bullying tactics are hard to stomach and the possibility of rugby clubs buying premierships and sacking coaches on a regular basis (like Man City) are not far away.
Does it really matter?
Everyone knows rugby has just as many dubious practices as soccer, for decades...
do they? I've rugby mates who'll swear blind that anything underhand/illegal is "part of the game"Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Of course it's not! If it was, it woudn't be illegal!
I feel like there are a few of sides to why this attitude exists. Rugby has been professional for less than 20 years. The average person interested in sports in Ireland didn't watch or attend rugby games habitually in the first 10 years of that. They're less familiar with the game in general. Therefore, "cheating" (i.e. diving or other acts to gain an advantage) is a lot less obvious in rugby than it is in football — partially because people aren't that familiar with the rules in rugby. My mum could spot Ronaldo taking a dive, but she wouldn't have a clue if Richie McCaw was lying on top of the ball at the wrong side of a ruck or if Paul O'Connell slightly adjusts his position to block the path of a chasing opposition player after a garryowen. A rugby player would rarely take a dive because it's of no advantage (although it has happened), so they have to resort to more subtle things (or sometimes not so subtle).Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
These people need to go their opticians then...
You want to compare a foul with cheating and simulating getting hit by a player in order to get him sent off?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I would 'strenously' disagree with that opinion.
The big difference in attitude is when simulation is glaringly and obviously committed to get another player sent off, there are no repercussions for the offender.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serb
It is not regarded as an offence by Fifa or Uefa to cheat the ref in this way. The offender is actually allowed to reap the reward of the offence with no comebacks. Instead, if a player mildly reacts to a cheat, the book will be thrown at him. That's a perversion of sport.
In rugby the initial offender is treated as the main culprit, but it's a completely different sport with a much more extreme physicality, a different type of ref and attitude is needed to keep the lid on. You might as well compare football to the sport of volleyball, as compare it to rugby.
Such is the cursed influence of that blasted soccer, even the slide tackle is creeping into rugby now.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x17...sport?start=34
Slightly related, but I see that Platini is suggesting that football introduces a sin bin instead of yellow cards. Part of the rationale is that the accumulation of yellows actually benefits an unaffected team (the team that benefits from the eventual suspension) rather than the team offended against. He cited rugby as evidence that it works.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
It would make 10 mins very uneven, but good fun.
If your point is that a stronger covenant of respect is actually required in rugby, rtaher than simply something to be admired, then yes I agree. The game would fall apart if referees didn't have the absolute position of ascendancy that they have.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I didn't see Leinster v Glasgow in last year's Rabo play-off semi final but my mate was at the game and he said that the ref was weak and Glasgow went to town on him, playing on every favourable interpretation and lack of punishment of their offending. The more he let it go, the more they did it. That's cheating the ref as well as the opposition, no?
I've seen rugby players (usually English scrum-halves!) taking quick tap penalties and running straight into an opponent who hadn't an earthly chance to retreat ten yards, to earn the penalty and try and get a yellow card for the opponent. I saw Morgan Parra pretend an Owen Farrell b1tch-slap was a full-on punch, and so on...
They do do it. Nowhere near the prevalance of such ridiculous action in football, of course.
But it's a tough one for football. I think they are right, for the good of the game, to have a near zero-tolerance for punching, but I think the game suffers for minor facial contact being interpreted as violent behaviour. It's a fairly easy thing for UEFA to sort out, and blatant play-acting can be punished retrospectively via video analysis. Even if - in fact especially if -players get tough treatment from a video jury then it'll make them think twice about play-acting. Rivaldo was fined about an hour's wages for his utterly ridiculous play acting (against Turkey?) a few years ago. An opponent threw a ball at him for him to take a corner with and he pretended he had been polaxed by some act of aggression. Pathetic behaviour and pathetic punishment.
I don't want to divert this thread into a conversation about youth coaching, but the following is relevant to your post. I wonder if there's a better thread for this discussion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia
http://www.thecoachdiary.com/over-coaching/
If a Saturday morning is anything to go by, then our kids are certainly not getting the freedom they need to explore and learn. Most sports parks around the country are awash with adults cheering, but in most cases roaring on their kids and kicking every ball. I would hate to be a child trying to think in an environment like that, wouldn’t you? This undue pressure to have to win the kids game, is making the game they supposedly love a horrible experience and eventually they rebel against the experience and loud supervision from adults to leave the game for good. We need to stop this from happening.
The whole article is worth reading as it relates to broader points about coaching kids, but the above extract was relevant to what we were discussing a few days ago.
Francis was calling for foul play if necessary to run down the clock, yet there appeared to be a refusal from some to accept that for what it was and want to label Francis as saying ireland should have cheated. And now you are giving account from a friend who attended a match with a long list of complaints about the antics of the opposition. So I take it, Leinster were squeaky clean? and we can all rest easy that Irish rugby is truly corinthian? :) or just maybe your friend was, shall we say, partisan? Regardless of what went down in that game, I'm sure if you pull the rug up on many sports you'll find cheats, whether it's cricket, golf, water polo, ice hockey or rugby. I do note that there are drug tests in most every sport and just why would that be?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
What is with this desire to unearth acts of cheating in Rugby? - 'well this guy cheated in this game a year ago'. I mean what has that got to do with popcorn and ice cream? :)Quote:
I've seen rugby players (usually English scrum-halves!) taking quick tap penalties and running straight into an opponent who hadn't an earthly chance to retreat ten yards, to earn the penalty and try and get a yellow card for the opponent. I saw Morgan Parra pretend an Owen Farrell b1tch-slap was a full-on punch, and so on...
They do do it. Nowhere near the prevalance of such ridiculous action in football, of course.
The issue with football is not just prevalence of ridiculous actions but also the institutionalised and widespread approval of those acts. If it wasn't tolerated, it just would not happen.
Football authorities are still rewarding blatant simulation with their almost 100% tolerance of that behaviour. You're kinda saying that the cheating and simulation are relatively easy misdemeanours to sort out, therefore it's fixable, not a chronic problem and football will eventually function just like any other game, if only that part was sorted out.Quote:
But it's a tough one for football. I think they are right, for the good of the game, to have a near zero-tolerance for punching, but I think the game suffers for minor facial contact being interpreted as violent behaviour. It's a fairly easy thing for UEFA to sort out, and blatant play-acting can be punished retrospectively via video analysis. Even if - in fact especially if -players get tough treatment from a video jury then it'll make them think twice about play-acting. Rivaldo was fined about an hour's wages for his utterly ridiculous play acting (against Turkey?) a few years ago. An opponent threw a ball at him for him to take a corner with and he pretended he had been polaxed by some act of aggression. Pathetic behaviour and pathetic punishment.
But just how many thousands of high profile incidents have happened since that Rivaldo one (some 12 years ago)? The top footballers are for the most part, serial cheats, Neymar, Ronaldo etc, those players will not think twice to simulate getting hit, fool the ref to get a fellow player sent off and they are applauded by their own supporters, fellow players from around the world and rewarded by Fifa/Uefa for their efforts. When I heard on the radio Chelsea got a penalty at the death against West Brom, I automatically think "dive". If Suarez wins a penalty, you have to ask 'was it a legit one'? That's football every day in the EPl and it's rationalised as being part of today's game.
Until it's sorted out with those relatively easy to apply fixes, you'll have to contend with people talking about the 'soccer disease', the spread of the 'soccer disease' to other sports and the contagious effect of soccer on sport today......... even by rugby folk.
You were talking specifically about footballers cheating to get an opponent sent off. You were saying there is a big difference in attitude. I was saying that the difference in that instance isn't that big and gave examples. They are not isolated examples of rugby players being less than Corinthian in spirit. Every example I cited above was in response to something you said a few posts ago.
I was also saying that there are some acts that are so blatant that tolerance should not be granted, but unfortunately it is. There are other acts that are less clear cut.
That lesser acts of cheating or different acts of cheating happen in these and other sports is a given.
You need to stop trying to nitpick with people who are fundamentally agreeing with you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76FEWcyFCwM
.......even football teams can get it right occasionally.
There was a lot of Connacht rugby tops, jerseys etc to be seen on people in Galway last saturday. Rugby is clearly ahead of soccer with the Irish public now and the League of Ireland has a tough battle ahead and the GAA itself should be worried. Maybe there is a bit of bandwagon jumping involved and Connacht lost that day, but Galway FC will need to get promotion fairly quickly if the are to rival rugby for support in the west.
That doesn't really prove anything. Are there as many jerseys to be seen in Galway during the off season? Do you see many GAA jerseys around at this time of year?
Of course there's going to be more on view on matchday, and against high profile opposition, it's when there's no game on and jerseys are still on view that you really can say it's taken over.
People in the West like to wear Rugby jerseys on a night out, which I don't understand..
Walk into any pub in Galway at the weekend and you'll probably see some lad wearing a Connacht/Munster jersey tucked into their jeans!
Tell me about it, brand Munster, I went for pints a few years back with a few of the lads from school when I was back over Christmas and two of them with their Munster regalia on. I knew these lads through their formative years and beyond, and the fortunes of Irish rugby was one thing that never troubled them in any way shape or form I can tell you. The disdain in which they held the '#@;*"ing rugby jocks' who played in our school team back then wasn't a conversation topic they were comfortable with at all, I recall.Quote:
Originally Posted by IsMiseSean
Tucked tight down into the jeans too.
Galway seems to be an area where football needs alot of promotion and development and is lagging behind both rugby and gaa.
I think Galway FC will struggle if they don't get promotion fairly quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy
Galway isn't really a sporting city, people seem to be only interested in GAA when the teams are doing well and even then the support & interest doesn't seem to match other "GAA mad" counties..
This is in the paper:
The top 10 gifts for Irish Men this Xmas that won't break the bank.
1. Magee Tweed Blazer
2. Male grooming gift
3. Aran Winter Woolies
4. Farming boots
5. Authentic Irish iPad case
6. Newbridge silverware cufflinks
7. A new Wallet
8. Irish themed onesie (longe pants)
9. Sunglasses
10. Authentic GAA gear.
Discuss.