Roy Keane

Maybe he was a lousy captain off the pitch but I think that's common among captains. It should be the managers duty to lead them off the pitch in the first place, anyway in my opinion.

Players of his standard are often incredibly ambitious and often times insatiable because they're never happy with what they have, they always want more success, to be bigger and better.

Vieira was the same, complete tool off the pitch, one of the most inspirational leaders the premiership has ever seen off it.
Zidane was a coaches nightmare because he never took orders from anybody but himself, yet was one of the greatest players and leaders of all time.

I think it's too much to ask for a driven, ambitious, dominating leader on the pitch to be a friendly, reasonable fellow off it.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think we'd have been up against it against S. Korea myself. They were better at that tournament than people think.

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Korea had more than luck on their side in that WC lads dont forget :D

can i ask a genuine question here, why is it that most of Keano's most vociferous haters on here, are Dubs. Seems to be a trend outside here too. If your talkign abotu Saipan in a group and you have a gang of lads from all over the country chances are you will get a 50/50 split, but bring in a gang of jackeens and invariably, they will in the vast majority be of the taxi driving anti keane type. What is that?????:confused:

"Maybe he was a lousy captain off the pitch but I think that's common among captains"

Spot on! Tony Adams anyone!!!

Tony Adams who turned his life around big time. I've nothing but respect for him now. A very thoughtful & reflectful person.

I couldn't give 2 hoots where Keane is from. If he was a Dub I'd be every bit as critical of his role in Saipan.

I'm not a Keane-hater by any means, I just don't see how he can be placed on such a high pedestal by so many. Amazing footballer, very flawed character.

Duff said that young players "trod on eggshells around him". Keane slipped off on an early morning flight to Manchester after the Iran game in Dublin without wishing the squad luck. I'm not saying he should be godfather to all the players' kids, but the above are poor examples of captaincy in my view.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Tony Adams who turned his life around big time. I've nothing but respect for him now. A very thoughtful & reflectful person.

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No doubt, but at the peak of his powers, he was a great captain on the pitch, and a terrible one off it :) See my point?
As were people like David Campese, Michael Irvin and John McEnroe

What other captains have done or did not do is an irrelevant issue.
Keane's actions are judged from an Ireland context.
Stutts is spot on.

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

yeah but when the FAI dont even organise a decent place to stay and train, etc then i think quite frankly you can shove your nationalism up your balls (as the great man might say himself!):)

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What do you expect from a pig but a grunt!
By the way. Some people are talking about glorifying in Ipswich's dilemena. Its nothing that 50million cant solve, ala Sunderland.

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Originally Posted by an_ceannaire

No doubt, but at the peak of his powers, he was a great captain on the pitch, and a terrible one off it :) See my point?
As were people like David Campese, Michael Irvin and John McEnroe

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Your point about dubs is nonsense absolute rubbish. I am both respect and admire Mc Carthy and Keane and I grew up in Dublin. To say Dubs are Keane haters is getting into generalisations that cannot be backed up by fact whatsoever. Fact is there are over 1 million Dubs so they do stand out in Ireland.

Also Football is probably the biggest sport and lots of schoolboy football in Dublin etc. So football is massive in Dublin that maybe its not so massive in other counties as was shown by the terrible attendances in Thomond.

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Originally Posted by geysir

What other captains have done or did not do is an irrelevant issue.
Keane's actions are judged from an Ireland context.
Stutts is spot on.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9la_Guttmann

Between 1921 and 1924 Guttman also played six times for Hungary, scoring on his debut on June 5 1921 in a 3-0 win against Germany. Later in the same month he also played against a Southern Germany XI. His remaining four appearances all came in May 1924 in games against Switzerland, Saarland, Poland and Egypt. The latter two were at the Olympic Games in Paris. During the preparations for the competition Guttmann objected to the fact that there were more officials than players in the Hungary squad. He also complained that the hotel was more suitable for socialising than match preparation and to demonstrate his disapproval he hung dead rats on the doors of the travelling officials.

Interesting story Neil, Guttman was not a captain.
Neither was Paddy Mulligan in bungate.

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Originally Posted by an_ceannaire

"Maybe he was a lousy captain off the pitch but I think that's common among captains"

Spot on! Tony Adams anyone!!!

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Those dubs are hard figure out alright an_ceannaire. No innocent country honesty about them at all. :)

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Your point about dubs is nonsense absolute rubbish. I am both respect and admire Mc Carthy and Keane and I grew up in Dublin. To say Dubs are Keane haters is getting into generalisations that cannot be backed up by fact whatsoever. Fact is there are over 1 million Dubs so they do stand out in Ireland.

Also Football is probably the biggest sport and lots of schoolboy football in Dublin etc. So football is massive in Dublin that maybe its not so massive in other counties as was shown by the terrible attendances in Thomond.

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I thought for a minute there you were making a point Neil.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9la_Guttmann

Between 1921 and 1924 Guttman also played six times for Hungary, scoring on his debut on June 5 1921 in a 3-0 win against Germany. Later in the same month he also played against a Southern Germany XI. His remaining four appearances all came in May 1924 in games against Switzerland, Saarland, Poland and Egypt. The latter two were at the Olympic Games in Paris. During the preparations for the competition Guttmann objected to the fact that there were more officials than players in the Hungary squad. He also complained that the hotel was more suitable for socialising than match preparation and to demonstrate his disapproval he hung dead rats on the doors of the travelling officials.

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Where would one acquire dead rats? Nice anecdote all the same though.

The point which is probably above your head is that to groupe peoples opinions on saipan based on where they come from is rubbish. It probably says more about the poster and his relationship with people from Dublin than anything else.

Well said Neil, its like standing in goal(soccer or gaelic goals), when the ball goes in over yer head, nothing more embarassing. :)

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

The point which is probably above your head is that to groupe peoples opinions on saipan based on where they come from is rubbish. It probably says more about the poster and his relationship with people from Dublin than anything else.

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I can see why my ill-judged post would make you think that Neil :o But you could not be more wrong! Was born in St James' and raised in Kilnamanagh!! Moved to Limerick in secondary school
Anti-Dubs i am not!!! As my wardrobe with TWELVE Arnotts jerseys/polo shirts would prove!!!

Well fair play ceannaire but then I am surprised at your "ill judged post". Saipan is very boring at this stage and I have not seen one person change their views on it since it started but to think that our views on this issue are based on where we grew up is madness in my view.

Anyway as I said before, Roy Keane like a mid 30s female cosmo reader was not happy with the foreplay and Mick Mc Carthy was all about the main event.

I find it very sad when I see Irish fans slagging off one of our best players of all time, and willing him to fail in his managerial career. Without wishing to open up the whole Saipan debate again, I think we can all agree that both McCarthy and Keane were both at fault to some extent - McCarthy should have had a private meeting with Keane about his comments in the Irish Times, and not pulled him up about it in front of the whole team; Keane should have issued an apology for his comments, and got on with captaining his country during the World Cup.

However, whatever your views about Saipan, there is no way we would have qualified for 2002 without Roy Keane. He was immense in every game in that qualifying group (with the exception of Iran at home), especially against Portugal and Holland at home. There would have been no Saipan without Roy Keane as we would have been sitting at home watching the finals like we normally are.

I find it amazing that most of the anti-Keane brigade that I speak to would all have Stephen Ireland back in our team tomorrow. They were all calling Keane a traitor back in 2002 for walking out on his country, yet they will all bend over backwards to get Ireland playing for us again, even though he's never come out with any valid reason as to why he's not interested in playing for his country again. Very strange. Good luck to Roy Keane and Mick McCarthy and anyone else who has served us so well in their future careers.

I am bit confused Fitzy. Your last point, says most of the anti keane brigade and then uses terms like they were all calling Keane a traitor and they will all bend over backwards.

I have found that those that I speak to who are or were anti Keane are even more anti Stephen Ireland. I think a lot of the fans who travel all over the world supporting Ireland and have done for years, felt hurt and insulted by Keanes actions, and the same feelings are felt in relation to Stephen Ireland.