Lisbon Treaty

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Originally Posted by pete

Farmers moaning about the end of days. Over 50% of all farm & agrifood jobs to be lost. They may have some points but they always overdo it on the doom & gloom stuff. Fishermen also moaning about quotas. Sure if no quotas then all the fish would be gone. :rolleyes:

How any of this has anything to do with Lisbon escapes me...

I have noticed in the media that the Lisbon No vote has now turned into a debate whether the EU has been good for us or should we stay in it. Of all the stupid debates...

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But the people have had their say :rolleyes:

Ganley was back on the radio this morning, trotting out the same old guff that there is a strong basis for renegotiation.

Fact remains Lisbon has been legally ratified by 24 countries now. That isn't any basis for renegotiation.

What we have is stalemate. The only way you can move from stalemate is change. Some countries want, in terms of federalism, to move forwards (regardless of what some posters and the No camp say, this constitutes a simple majority of both people and countries), some want to move backwards (UK and it would appear, Ireland and some others).

The only logical conclusion one can draw is that we are heading to a two speed Europe. Schengen and EMU are two examples of where this is happening already.

Personally I'm all for a more federalist approach (both for perceived positive reasons and because of my own views on the achievements of Irish goverments and indeed the state over the years since independence), but I recognise there is a strong movement against this.

I can't believe that whatever about interpreting the result of the referendum, the media haven't blown a hole through the No camp vision of how we move forward as it is based squarely in cloud cuckoo land.

PS If anyone listening to Eamonn Gilmore this morning it should be readily apparent why the Yes side contributed to the referendum failing. Weak, shilly-shallying, naive, passive attempt at responding to Declan Ganley. FF and FG were worse, they appear to have buried their heads in the sand and treated it as if it was all a bad dream.

I'm not sure how history will portray the referendum decision, but I'm fairly sure the role of the main political parties will be viewed as a low point.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

The only logical conclusion one can draw is that we are heading to a two speed Europe. Schengen and EMU are two examples of where this is happening already.

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I think that is the only thing certain. We need to decide where we stand as a nation on this & it is likely that countries will opt in to parts they like going forward. As it stands 24 countries have decided they want to move on Lisbon path so we can't hold them up for much longer. Does any one really know why we voted No?

I think Cowen is stalling & hoping the EU find a solution as he doesn't have a clue what to do. If he held another vote on the same Treaty he would have to do it before the EU Parliament elections which would be political suicide.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Fact remains Lisbon has been legally ratified by 24 countries now. That isn't any basis for renegotiation.

What we have is stalemate. The only way you can move from stalemate is change. Some countries want, in terms of federalism, to move forwards (regardless of what some posters and the No camp say, this constitutes a simple majority of both people and countries), some want to move backwards (UK and it would appear, Ireland and some others).

The only logical conclusion one can draw is that we are heading to a two speed Europe. Schengen and EMU are two examples of where this is happening already.

Personally I'm all for a more federalist approach (both for perceived positive reasons and because of my own views on the achievements of Irish goverments and indeed the state over the years since independence), but I recognise there is a strong movement against this.

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Fact also remains that without us accepting Lisbon, it doesn't matter an iota whether 1 or 24 countries parliaments ratify it or not. We effectively have a veto on it, so basically what they do doesn't count. Without unanimity, it cannot take effect, and no country can move ahead on it without us. End of story.

Sarkosy and co have to understand that, as politicians, you can't get your way all the time in international affairs. As a No advocate, I don't want a renegotiation. We have a Treaty, it's called the Nice Treaty, and that is a perfectly acceptable way to run the European Union.

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Originally Posted by pete

As it stands 24 have decided they want to move on Lisbon path so we can't hold them up for much longer.

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Yes we can hold them up, and yes we will, for as long as we see fit.

Meanwhile, Italy, Sweden, Germany, Poland, and Czech Republic have yet to ratify or are awaiting legal challenges on ratification, so it's not quite 24 countries yet.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Yes we can hold them up, and yes we will, for as long as we see fit.

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So, just to clarify, what you have said it that we'll hold it up either
a) until we get our way; or
b) forever?

Its hard to debate with someone who is so out of touch with reality.

Lets wait and see, I can guarantee that whatever the outcome is, it will be neither a nor b.

PS What is your assumption that Nice is acceptable to the majority of the EU based on?

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Its hard to debate with someone who is so out of touch with reality.

Lets wait and see, I can guarantee that whatever the outcome is, it will be neither a nor b.

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It's also hard to debate with federalists who want Ireland treated as a pawn, to be bullied, threatened, and dictated to by those from other states with clearly no respect for democracy, nor who accept/respect the EU's own rules.

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Originally Posted by mypost

It's also hard to debate with federalists who want Ireland treated as a pawn, to be bullied, threatened, and dictated to by those from other states with clearly no respect for democracy, nor who accept/respect the EU's own rules.

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In danger of going way off topic, but given the way I perceive I've been represented (both as an Irish citizen and resident) by successive Governments (no respect for democracy, bullied, dictated and threatened would be words that would spring to mind, amongst others.....) I'm all up for giving the federalists a lash, they can hardly be worse.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

In danger of going way off topic, but given the way I perceive I've been represented (both as an Irish citizen and resident) by successive Governments (no respect for democracy, bullied, dictated and threatened would be words that would spring to mind, amongst others.....)

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You can throw out the sitting Irish government after 5 years. A federalist admin wouldn't be worse, it would be a disaster for Ireland.



Meanwhile, this old chestnut dragged up again by Vinny Brown:

"they insisted, there were serious problems and one of them had to do with the six-month EU rotating presidency...it was an obstruction." :mad:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...740954459.html

I don't see eye-to-eye with Sarkosy on many things re: the treaty, but one thing he is entitled to, like the other heads of state, is hold the Presidency for 6 months when France's turn comes around. He is therefore entitled to showcase himself, and his country as well if he sees fit while holding the office.

After the Greece Presidency in 2003, the EU decided to end the bi-annual heads of state conferences in the EU host country, as it was too much of an obstruction, and move them all back to Brussels. Why don't we get rid of other obstructions such as national vetoes, and referenda under Lisbon while we're at it?? Oh wait, that's happening as well. :eek::mad:

Sorry, no can do. As Brown writes, even with these so-called obstructions, "the EU continued to function...no gridlock, no chaos". As it will continue to do under Nice.

Irish Times

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Some 71 per cent of those questioned in the Republic opposed a second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, with just 24 per cent in favour. Of those who expressed an opinion, 62 per cent said they would vote No in a second referendum, compared to 38 per cent who would vote Yes.

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I see a new poll yesterday shows increased opposition to a second Referendum. While I have no doubt many people are against a second vote the manner that poll was done was seriously misleading.

The question was asked along the lines of "Do you think as suggest by President Sarkozy that a second Referendum should be held".

I wonder what the results would have been if the following question was asked "Would you reject a second Referendum as suggested by UK Tory MP William Hague"

:rolleyes:

On William Hague, did anyone see his piece in the Irish Times on Saturday?

I didn't actually read it. I got as far as the headline: Why Ireland shouldn't let foreigners tell them how to vote on Lisbon (or something to that effect).

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by pete

I see a new poll yesterday shows increased opposition to a second Referendum. I have no doubt many people are against a second vote.

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It is the truth however. The very idea that we would have more than one referendum to give the answer Cowen and co wants is an affront to democracy.

Napoleon last week: "The Ereesh must ave ze chance too geve ther opeenion".:mad:

In case you haven't noticed sir, we already have. You get one shot at it, and the federalists lost. Game Over.

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Originally Posted by mypost

It is the truth however.

The very idea that we would have more than one referendum to give the answer Cowen and co wants is downright undemocratic.

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If opinion polls ask leading questions such as Red C did in this instance we won't ever discover if voters have changed the minds. IMO Red C have lost any credibility they have & I will certainly not look at their future surveys at face value any more.

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Originally Posted by pete

If opinion polls ask leading questions such as Red C did in this instance we won't ever discover if voters have changed the minds. IMO Red C have lost any credibility they have & I will certainly not look at their future surveys at face value any more.

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It's no more interfering with the political process here, than the eurobarometer poll was. A number of different questions were asked, and 1,000 answers were given. Whether you agree with the answers or not, is another thing.

Having said that, it was a very small poll. It is an indication, but not the full picture of the state of play here at the moment.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Napoleon last week: "The Ereesh must ave ze chance too geve ther opeenion".:mad:

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Would you give it a rest? Whats the point of this childishness?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Would you give it a rest? Whats the point of this childishness?

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The silly Francophobia or the persistent irritation at how this treaty refuses to die?

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Originally Posted by John83

The silly Francophobia or the persistent irritation at how this treaty refuses to die?

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The Francophobia - referring to Sarkozy as 'Napoleon' and the pathetic 'frenglish'. mypost seemingly not up on his history, Napoleon invented the nationalism that mypost is clinging to.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

The Francophobia - referring to Sarkozy as 'Napoleon' and the pathetic 'frenglish'. mypost seemingly not up on his history, Napoleon invented the nationalism that mypost is clinging to.

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Oh, fair enough.

I am amused at the mental picture of mypost invading Russia in the winter. ;)

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Originally Posted by John83

I am amused at the mental picture of mypost invading Russia in the winter. ;)

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Mypost would call foul when the Russions stalled for time by keeping the war in a corner until winter arrived.

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Originally Posted by Bald Student

Mypost would call foul when the Russions stalled for time by keeping the war in a corner until winter arrived.

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Actually, in the Napoleonic ones, they just retreated, burning everything in sight. With the invention of motorised troop transports, they had to adapt the plan for later invasions.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Would you give it a rest? Whats the point of this childishness?

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:confused:

http://www.hippolytic.com/0103/the_new_napolean.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...es-770014.html

http://euobserver.com/9/26510

That's the point. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by mypost

http://www.hippolytic.com/0103/the_new_napolean.html

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Yale's student rag? thats a quotable source? really? :confused: also, try clicking any of the links...

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http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...es-770014.html

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some rubbish about him and his wife? :confused:

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http://euobserver.com/9/26510
That's the point. :rolleyes:

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"To show that he meant what he said, Mr Sarkozy has also let it be known that he will personally veto any further European enlargement until the Lisbon provisions are in place.

On the other side of the continent, Croatia, another small nation that hopes to accede to the European Union in 2010, is feeling the Napoleonic heel."
Right, I wasn't aware that Napoleon had anything to do with restricting bureaucratic bloat. My mistake.

If this is the calibre of the literature you turn to for confirmation of your own world view, I'm not surprised by the flailing efforts of your own arguments. Of course, I could respond in kind by 're-quoting' everything you say in 'Dublinese' but I haven't the will nor the time.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

My mistake.:confused:

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The "franglais" humour that upset you so much, was to demonstrate how stupid it is that a foreign head of state would demand referendums here, after one has being held. Because, when you examine his statement, that's effectively what he said.

We've had the opportunity to give our opinion, and have done so. For the sake of democracy, it's very important that we uphold the outcome of refs in our and other countries, and protect those citizens in Europe who were prevented from having them at all.

There is no "getting around" the result. The treaty requires a referendum here, any attempt to ratify it through parliament without a Yes vote in a referendum would be illegal, be subject to a tonne of legal challenges, lead to anarchy, and a guaranteed election defeat. The treaty is therefore aborted. When those in power accept that reality, we can relax knowing the Nice Treaty remains in operation in the EU.

Hugely amused that the No camp (and Mypost) are referring to a blatantly partisan British commissioned poll to support their point.

Interestingly your purile and infantile anti-French "humour" is also beloved of the English.

I thought we'd become more European in the last 30 years and finally broken the dependency link with the UK but clearly old habits die hard in some areas.

If you wish to discuss Sarkozy there is already a separate thread about him.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/le...d-1442581.html

Fortunately sir, you cannot overlook the simple fact:

"In legal terms, all member states are equal on the council."

It's the legal position, not the population size, that counts.

Todays Irish Times says it all for me

http://www.irishtimes.com/feeds/imag...7279097510.jpg

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Originally Posted by mypost

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/le...d-1442581.html

Fortunately sir, you cannot overlook the simple fact:

"In legal terms, all member states are equal on the council."

It's the legal position, not the population size, that counts.

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That will be a nice blanket to cling to when were sitting on the outside of a two speed Europe (with the Brits).

"I told you we were right".....:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

That will be a nice blanket to cling to when were sitting on the outside of a two speed Europe (with the Brits).

:rolleyes:

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What "two-speed Europe"? The Brits ratified it a couple of weeks back. Any benefits for them?? :confused: No.

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Originally Posted by mypost

What "two-speed Europe"? The Brits ratified it a couple of weeks back. Any benefits for them?? :confused: No.

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Schengen and EMU are the first two examples.

Also the British position is very different. They (as a nation) at least are honest about their Euro-skepticism. Lisbon is an irrelevance for them as Labour will be slung out on their ear and the Tory's will start rolling back the UK's commitment to Europe. With us as their lapdogs given whats gone on over the last few months.

If you want, the use of the Euro is another example. But for all the doomsday scenarios of "two-speed Europe", it hasn't affected the lives of citizens. So citing those as examples of "two-speed Europe" are far-fetched.

You can't unify this continent. The people, cultures, languages, and the politics/policies of the sovereign states are so different and diverse, that what's good for one country, is not automatically good for others, and so a one size fits all political policy, is simply not going to work in Europe.

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FIANNA FÁIL spent less than a quarter of what Fine Gael spent on commercial advertising in the Lisbon Treaty campaign, figures obtained by The Irish Times indicate.

Libertas, the anti-treaty entity run by businessman Declan Ganley, spent more on commercial advertisements than all the political parties put together, according to the figures.

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http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...368580622.html

And Cowen was surprised that they couldn't get the vote out! FF obviously took their eye of the ball completely, and took a Yes vote for granted. Never mind all the finger pointing at apparent lies from the No side, maybe the Cowen should be looking in a mirror..

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Originally Posted by Macy

And Cowen was surprised that they couldn't get the vote out! FF obviously took their eye of the ball completely, and took a Yes vote for granted. Never mind all the finger pointing at apparent lies from the No side, maybe the Cowen should be looking in a mirror..

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Hardly surprising they assumed people would vote for them no matter what given the result of the last general election though is it

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Originally Posted by Macy

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...368580622.html

And Cowen was surprised that they couldn't get the vote out! FF obviously took their eye of the ball completely, and took a Yes vote for granted. Never mind all the finger pointing at apparent lies from the No side, maybe the Cowen should be looking in a mirror..

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Those figures only relate to official advertising so doe snot include leaflets & posters so could be misleading.

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Originally Posted by jebus

Hardly surprising they assumed people would vote for them no matter what given the result of the last general election though is it

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While at least 40% of the electorate are obviously a bit dim, but even I wouldn't under estimate how effective FF campaigns are, when they bother to put their backs into it.

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Originally Posted by pete

Those figures only relate to official advertising so doe snot include leaflets & posters so could be misleading.

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Yeah, so said Micky Martin on Morning Ireland - of course they spent much more on leaflets :rolleyes: He's fast being shown up as the new Dick Roche when it comes to waffle.

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Originally Posted by Macy

FF obviously took their eye of the ball completely, and took a Yes vote for granted.

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The polls had indicated otherwise for the past week, but right up until the first box was opened on the morning of the count, they thought they had it. :rolleyes: Citing the % turnout as the reason, despite the analysis of it only taken on the back of the Nice 2 turnout. :confused:

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Originally Posted by mypost

If you want, the use of the Euro is another example. But for all the doomsday scenarios of "two-speed Europe", it hasn't affected the lives of citizens. So citing those as examples of "two-speed Europe" are far-fetched.

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These three examples, the euro, the interest rate on your mortgage and not needing your passport to travel have definitely affected the lives of people.

150th thread post: :)

http://europenews.dk/en/node/12250

Since was not having a referendum denying rights?

"Let's assume there was a referendum". I stopped reading there.

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"Let's assume there was a referendum". I stopped reading there.

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As did the other 26 heads of state

Meanwhile: http://www.herald.ie/opinion/letters...t-1443999.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...40.html?via=mr

Just as well he's a journo, because you wanted want to have him as a lawyer, seem as he doesn't understand this sovereign nation's constitution. :rolleyes:

As Charlton asked Dunphy: "You call yourself a proper journalist??"

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Schengen and EMU are the first two examples.

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Dead right, and look what happened to Rod Hull!