Liam Toland in the Irish Times:
"Leinster broke the laws to their advantage, deserving credit for same."
Discuss.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugb...1579746?page=2
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Liam Toland in the Irish Times:
"Leinster broke the laws to their advantage, deserving credit for same."
Discuss.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugb...1579746?page=2
Have they now breached some great ethical barrier...
I noticed that Munster couldn't sell out their big Heineken Cup game v Gloucster a couple of weeks back, or at least there were still tickets available on the day. This would have been unthinkable a couple of years back. I wonder how much of it is down to the Celtic Tiger crash and how much of it is down to a rapidly decreasing bandwagon? Presumably a combination of both but I've a feeling the Munster phenomenon may gradually fade into a passing interest or less for the majority. That said, I'm not too well up on the percentages of hardcore fans v bandwagoners.
I think it's just price sensitivity + relative lack of success in recent years, plus the fact Gloucester announced in advance they'd be sending a Mickey Mouse side.
I think there's dissatisfaction with the way Munster play too.
I have to say I'm intrigued by the whole H Cup scenario. I think we are seeing what many of us predicted: as rugby becomes more professional the same fault lines evident in football are also appearing. Player behaviour and coach behaviour are deteriorating. Benefactor owners are affecting competitive balance and financial stability. Thornley wrote a piece recently about how the French clubs will eat themselves but not before they eat everyone else first. Players follow the money, end of story. This romantic idea of Irish players staying at home because they love the place is rubbished now with the end of the tax break. Clubs everywhere are loss making and are entering a financial arms race for success and for players. Clubs are making a power grab from the unions and the unions are competing with each other on behalf of their clubs. Self interest is beginning to rule on all fronts. International rugby union is losing its lustre to a degree, and some clubs are doing their best to ensure this continues.
I think the IRB has been asleep at the wheel. All of the above has been evident in football since big TV money and Bosman. Almost everyone agrees that some form of FFP is warranted but is unfortunately at least a decade too late in football. UEFA fended off clubs' quest for a self-administered super league by making concessions early and by giving clubs greater say in UEFA's governance. But the IRB (or whoever is supposed to be overseeing the game in Europe at least) should have seen the need for action before now. I don't follow it all closely enough and have only recently been aware of the various tensions, the expiry of the H Cup arrangements, the state of club and franchise finances and the extent of financial clout in France. But the rugby authorities must have seen all this and yet they still stood idly by and at best are in reactive mode.
My rugby mates all agree and funnily enough, because of this I'm much more at peace with rugby than I have been for a few years. I think their cosy little world is falling apart a little and some humility is returning.
I said ages back in this thread that I felt there was a Celtic Tiger era sense of self satisfaction in rugby circles in the last few years. I think it's all a bit more objective now and I think that's a good thing. Professional sport is a dirty business and a financially unstable business, idoesn't matter what the sport is.
The answer probably depends on whether you're from Munster or Leinster. I'm from Galway so I don't give a s***e...Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
Good post Stutts, only wish I cared more. But I don't.
And Sean, Connacht are in the Heineken aren't they...
Charlie, is there any broad acceptance at home that rugby is becoming as riddled with self interest as football and that maybe the moral high ground is less elevated than before?
I'm all on for people preferring one sport over another but I've never bought into the notion that any sport is fundamentally more honourable than the other.
Probably, I don't think they need to qualify for it. Mickey Mouse competition...Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I don't really know to be honest. I think the cockiness has given way to a bit more realism over the past year and people are beginning to see that the likes of Boudjellal and Wray are every bit as ruthless as their soccer counterparts, but in this country I think the success of the provinces has allowed many in the game to evade any sort of serious examination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I do tire of this "rugby is turning into soccer" spiel. I like the way referees get more respect in rugby, but the moral highground becomes tiresome, especially when you have the odd player losing an eye.
Irish rugby is at it's lowest point for quite some time — 10 years at least. Munster have been in decline for a couple of seasons. Their fans also got screwed over the issuing of season tickets (can't remember exact details but the issue was along the lines of having to buy two season tickets, one for Cork and one for Limerick, where before you could buy one ticket to cover both). Those things combined have impacted their attendance massively. Ireland dropped to their lowest level in a long time when they lost to both Scotland and Italy in the last 6 Nations. There's still a lot of question marks over Leinster's season, a couple of reasonable performances in the Heineken Cup aside, they've looked very poor in the league. Ulster are the only team in any kind of ascendancy and are probably the best provincial side at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
At this stage, I think the bandwagoners have been weeded out, yet the number of spectators remains strong. Leinster continue to have an average attendance greater than the capacity of their stadium (around 19,000 thanks to a couple of games in the Aviva each season). Munster manage to average 15,000+ people per game despite form and ticketing issues, Ulster averaged 10,000 per game last season and have a brand new stadium this season. Connacht draw over 5,000 fans a game despite being rooted to the foot of the league. You're talking 45,000+ people on average attend a club rugby game in Ireland, 15 times a year. The national team probably bring in another 45,000 people five or six times a year (based on 3 autumn internationals and two to three home 6 Nations games).
I think rugby is still in a very strong position relative to football in this country.
Everyone's in a strong position relative to football!
But the IRFU has just had to borrow 26 million and am I right in thinking Leinster has debts of around 20million? What is the financial position of the other provinces?
Ah, c'mon! Sure, what'd ya be needin' two eyes for anyway?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
They didn't have to borrow the money - it's just a quirk in the way the IRFU operates that they provide a lot of up-front cash to the provincial unions and clubs. They're borrowing against future ticket sales (I know, nothing's certain) because 10-year ticket sales are more or less dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Leinster have a legacy debt of something like €8 million for the Donnybrook development but their finances are stable. Munster are in a worse position as far as I know and still have something like €5m owed to the IRFU they had to borrow a couple of years back.
Harsh.Quote:
Originally Posted by IsMiseSean
Big year for GAA in Munster, big runs for Limerick, Clare & Cork and an AI replay. All took its toll on the wallet!Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
compare and contrast the amount of coverage given to the search for, and eventual appointment of, managers for the football and rugby teams.
It was always more of a sure thing though Tets for the rugby, and there are a handful of countries to go to for a Rugby Coach.
If you look at the administration of rugby and football in this country, I would take Philip Browne and his team over Delaney and co. The IRFU overcame their slow acceptance of professional rugby to build a successful model, and while it faces many hurdles presently, Browne's limited comments on these hurdles were honest, yet left you feeling confident that the IRFU know what they are doing. Why do I not feel the same way when Delaney and Co make statements?
"limited" is the key word there gastric. Browne has time to prepare statements and responses, whereas Delaney is constantly in the public eye.
He wasn't questioned publicly after the last six nations, hasn't had to answer questions about underage progress, stadiums (Sports ground in Galway or Musgrave Park) player salaries, management salaries, players leaving the country, etc.
Dogs on the street seem to know what Delaney is earning, I couldn't tell you the last time I saw Browne in front of a camera.
By all accounts Delaney has been the ultimate schemer and politician. I'm reading "Who Stole Our Game?" and the author quotes FAI insiders as saying JD has a history of obstructing and undermining any initiative proposed by a CEO and is as Machiavellian as they come. One quote is quite funny "the best thing about Delaney being the CEO is that he doesn't have Delaney to undermine him from underneath".
I've no doubt you're right regarding Philip Browne, although I think organising and co-ordinating rugby in the professional era has been easier than football. To date it has simply been less commercial, less competitive and less political. Things are changing though and there are financial and political headwinds to contend with. I certainly admire how the IRFU has been transparent about its financial problems. None of this "we'll be debt free by 2020" without givbing any hint of how they'll achieve this.
One area where Delaney does deserve credit is that he has engaged with UEFA very effectively - although bar hosting the Europa League Final I'm not sure if there's been any tangible benefit to this.
As a friend of mine said "it's good to have people talking about soccer again although the idea of the appointment bringing the "Irish supporters" back to Landsdowne puzzles me. The supporters never left".
I've been saying for a while that Delaney is, long-term, aiming for the UEFA position when Platini steps aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Would he have any chance of landing that post?
If Jim Boyce can be FIFA vice-prez...
I think thats fairly common knowledge is it not? He is good friends with Pat McQuaid so maybe he has been schooling him...
One of the FIFA vice pres!Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
there are more FIFA veepess than Snow White has dwarves.
And we know that's just a revolving perk thrown to the UK associations.
Yeah. This has been my thinking too alright.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
As Charlie said once, "He's a snake-oil salesman, but he's OUR snake-oil salesman."
well, he's hosted the Europa League final, ahead of venues like the Emirates, among othersQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Platini awarded the fans that award after Euro 2012
and given that Platini is French, the presidency is more likely to go to one of the smaller associations when he departs, otherwise UEFA will be accused of favouring the larger and more powerful associations
why not?
I think I just called him a snake, but if the shoe fits!Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
What's Delaney done to win such a post? His record in his own association is hardly stellar.
There's been plenty of questions about the IRFU structures - they got hammered on the performance director role (or lack of it), and the fact they were looking for a coach without the structures in place above him. Delaney avoids plenty of crap - look at the state of Irish football, the league of ireland is falling apart, and he gets lauded for appointing an international management team ffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
A bit as Macy said, if Irish rugby is in such good shape how come we've had to appoint foreigners to the top 5 coaching positions? It says something about coach education and "pathways". Delaney said on the radio that rugby gets a far easier ride in the media than football and I agree.
But it's true, only certain parts of the football pyramid are in any sort of decent shape. The FAI has been riddled with factions and vested interests since long before he took office but these factions remain. The question for me is whether JD has been unable or unwilling to change this. My suspicion is that it's the latter - they don't make life awkward for him if he doesn't make life awkward for them. Instead he passes the buck to someone like Dokter to try and join things up. JD has made some good appointments and done some good brown-nosing at UEFA, and I absolutely believe he works as hard as he says he does, but that's not to say he's working hard at the right things.
In a way I think market forces are at work already. The regressive factions recognise that exporting big physical lumps over to England is no longer viable so they have no choice but to embrace change. Others, like the NDSL, have effected change because it's the right thing to do.
If there's an issue with the National team, the FAI get a hard time, but that's the be all and end all. The media don't care about the League of Ireland, or the youth structures or whatever, so then Delaney and the FAI get a pass. An example was the euro's when we went out - the RTE panel were all "ah well, sure we don't have the players". England get knocked out and it's all about the English structures for developing players. The other levels of the game, which actually hold the power are Delaneys power base - he's not going to tackle that for the greater good of player development (which is with the National team as the pinnacle, LoI would just see a side benefit). And he won't get questioned on it because the media are only interested in English football, and our players there.
From the outside looking in, I think you can only genuine things you can really pin on the IRFU is the senior club game and Connacht. They've the structures in place to develop players now, even outside the traditional areas/ schools. It remains to be seen how Europe pans out, and obviously the change to the tax breaks and the removal of the need to be Irish based are problems not really of their making.
The FA dont get a hard time for issues with the EPL, for example.
But it all depends on the remit i suppose of the FAi.
I think there's been a lot of talk in the press and among the ordinary punter about youth development in football. I think many are ignorant of what certain sections of the game are doing well and what the real problems are.
When players regularly start playing rugby for Ireland that haven't come through the traditional schools system I'll be more impressed. By the same token underage players are playing football for Ireland from all over the country. I'm still waiting for evidence that rugby is organised on a superior basis to football - even though anecdotally I'm happy to accept that their administration is better quality. The AIL clubs have an aggregate debt of €24 million I think I read last week. Rugby suffers from a chronic lack of volunteers. We employ foreign coaches to manage the national team and the 4 provinces.Not exactly evidence of a thriving game.
Rugby fills a lovel gap. GAA is great but domestic only. People want the football team to be successfull internationally but they only are on a sporadic basis at best. Rugby has success internationally, especially in a European club league where we enter sub-parts of our national team supplemented by foreign imports. Schmidt insisting that Madigan play for Leinster last week highlighted the slightly odd nature of our "club" rugby.
I think the real own goals were scored by Irish football a long long time ago. If a cr@phole like Dundee can get two teams to European finals and semi finals, surely in the pre-megabucks era a team from Dublin could have done the same? But if Dunphy is to be believed, Irish football was so small minded it did everything possible to make sure an Irish club didn't succeed in becoming more professional.
Despite how it may read, I'm not here to have a dig at rugby. I'm here to have a dig at the notion that they do everything well and that football doesn't.
My pals from Dundee would vehemently disagree...
The Scots had more talent than us in the '60s' and probably '70's...
Now all they have are EPL managers?
That's because the FA doesn't run the EPL. The EPL does. The FA doesn't get a hard time because the EPL has all the power and influence in the English game. This is something the RFU should be careful of.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
that's partially why the current Heineken Cup situation is so interesting, the club sides involved are putting their own interests ahead of the unionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Exactly, it's fascinating.