Eligibility proposal

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

But they also had less need to go hunting for them when they had a bigger player pool than NI in the first place.


Majority of the team born and brought up in Britain nonetheless.

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Not 'Granny rulers' though. Your point was the team was 'based around Granny Rulers'.

Anyone with even a simplistic understanding of Ireland's history knows how strong the link tends to be with second generation Irish kids brought up in Britain in an Irish community, going to Irish centres, having holidays back at home. Everyone in my generation of fans had cousins born in England or borthers or sisters emigrating over there and raising a family. Whatever qualms anyone had or jibes they made about 3rd generation players declaring I never conisdered any difference between the first and second generation Irish players. Given the history of economic emigrartion we had to endure in thw past and were enduring again in the 80's and into the early 90's I thought it was fitting that we had a team where the diaspora were well represented at that stage.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

the early 90's I thought it was fitting that we had a team where the diaspora were well represented at that stage.

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Do you remember Mary Robinson's address to the team about the importance of the diaspora? I'll never forget the look on Terry Phelan's face. The "dia-what?"

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Not 'Granny rulers' though. Your point was the team was 'based around Granny Rulers'.

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I think it's fair to say that there were several granny-rulers as key players. The majority, though, I have only ever said were born-and-reared in Britain albeit with an Irish parents and not necessarily just a granny.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Anyone with even a simplistic understanding of Ireland's history knows how strong the link tends to be with second generation Irish kids brought up in Britain in an Irish community, going to Irish centres, having holidays back at home.

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How many of the 94 team went to "Irish centres" and had regular holidays back home?

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Whatever qualms anyone had or jibes they made about 3rd generation players declaring I never conisdered any difference between the first and second generation Irish players.

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Most people did, though. Hence all the jokes about the Charlton team. It's not the same now since the granny-hunting quietened down.

I think you have to ask yourself is the reason why NI hasn't availed of the granny rule as much as Ireland has done in the past more linked to not been able to get the players rather than some sort of "moral standing".

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

What's a quota system over people's birth?:confused:

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Do you think that the IFA would turn around to the manager and say we only want one naturalised Brit, two 2G, one granny, and the rest must be from our wee country no matter how sh*te you think they are?

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

So someone brought up a nationalist is more Irish than someone brought up a unionist? That's an appalling attitude.

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More mock disgust? What would you prefer? 'You're Irish as you were born in Ireland and have no right to go round claiming you are a citizen of another country, you traitor'?

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Anyway, no-one has said Gibson isn't Irish - obviously he is - he was born and brought up in Ireland, just like me, for example. The point is he has little connection with the ROI. ROI doesn't have a monopoly on being Irish.

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It does in the context of nationality and citizenship.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Nice simplistic assessment. But it doesn't alter the fact that there are two countries in Ireland, and Gibson is from NI, not ROI.

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This is a forum, so I won't bore you with a thesis. However I've got some work to catch up on the simplisms you've posted e.g. The Irish team was 'in the popular consciousness was a team of English and Scotsmen with tenuous links to Ireland.'

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

I wouldn't have thought so. Who said that?

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You did when you said 'in the popular consciousness (the Cahrlton team) was a team of English and Scotsmen with tenuous links to Ireland.'

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

2 players. With the Charlton team often only a minority were Irish-born.

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Heighway's links were more tenuous than most of the players you mention, but he qualifies as a genuine Irishman in your view. So too Jonathan Aitken if he could actually play football rather than commit perjury.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Obviously, I'm all three. The people with the identity crises are the ones who can't deal with the complexity or nuance of multiple identity and who can only think in binary terms (e.g. the guy who's 3/4 English and 1/4 Irish, can't handle it and decides he's "100% Irish").

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Obviously? Why are you 'obviously' all three?

I've yet to meet the guy who is 3/4 English (presumably heritage) who thought he was '100% Irish'. Michael Robinson maybe?

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Majority of the team born and brought up in Britain nonetheless.

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So?

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

...Most people did, though. Hence all the jokes about the Charlton team. It's not the same now since the granny-hunting quietened down.

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Most people? The English media, England managers when they lost and couldn't blame a cr*p pitch or their captain's hepatitis, Billy Bingham, and er some Northern Ireland fans. Hypocrites the lot of them, and you all know it.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

I think it's fair to say that there were several granny-rulers as key players. The majority, though, I have only ever said were born-and-reared in Britain albeit with an Irish parents and not necessarily just a granny.


How many of the 94 team went to "Irish centres" and had regular holidays back home?


Most people did, though. Hence all the jokes about the Charlton team. It's not the same now since the granny-hunting quietened down.

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Several key players? Namely? Outside Townsend and Aldridge?

Out of the seond generation players named Babb and Phelan were reared by single Irish mothers, Sheridans family were big into the Irish community in Manchester. SAme with Alan Kelly. Dunno about Coyne but playing for Celtic in Glasgow I'd imagine he was familiar with the community, ditto for Houghton growing up there and his family certainly holidayed in Donegal.

The jokes about the team were because the team was sucessful at a time when England were underachieving bar Italia 90. There are still a couple of 3rd generation players involved now such as McGeady and Alex Bruce (think you may have had a claim on him and all, you'd have been welcome to him!) in the seniors this weekend, O'Toole in the 21's and the likes of Folan who had a call up for the B's and previously for the seniors and had to pull out. Nothing's changed as regards the small number of 'Granny rulers' except the fact that we're not winning games now hence the jokes have stopped.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Yeah, but if the Hong Kong guy is also a citizen then they're equal on that score. But the Hong Kong guy has 1 ROI grandparent and the NI guy has no ROI grandparents, so the Hong Kong guy wins.

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Win what? your subjective interpretation that a china man with one irish grandaddy means you are more connected to the Republic than Darron Gibson born in Derry.
:D:D
Your belief about a certain scale of connection has no
relevance to the objective criteria, the scale of legal criteria that is used to determine eligibility for Irish citizenship and
FiFA´s consistent interpretation and evaluation of the same criteria being over and above that of a grandparent connection.

Send a submission to FIFA about it I´m sure they would be in a quandary as to decide if it is more or less ridiculous/self defeating than the argument used by Howard Wells that FIFA should apply their own rules.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

I think you have to ask yourself is the reason why NI hasn't availed of the granny rule as much as Ireland has done in the past more linked to not been able to get the players rather than some sort of "moral standing".

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You're not making sense: NI and Ireland are the same. Do you mean as much as the Republic? If so, the answer is "no", that is not the reason. The IFA held out on the granny rule for many years on grounds of principle.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Do you think that the IFA would turn around to the manager and say we only want one naturalised Brit, two 2G, one granny, and the rest must be from our wee country no matter how sh*te you think they are?

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No. Why are you asking?

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Originally Posted by lopez

More mock disgust?

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Not mock disgust: genuine anger at your suggestion that someone is "more" Irish because of his political views.:mad:

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Originally Posted by lopez

What would you prefer? 'You're Irish as you were born in Ireland and have no right to go round claiming you are a citizen of another country, you traitor'?

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Don't know what you're getting at - there's a choice between the above and saying a nationalist is more Irish than a non-nationalist? That doesn't follow at all.

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Originally Posted by lopez

It does in the context of nationality and citizenship.

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It doesn't: an ROI citizen is no "more" Irish than a UK citizen from NI.:mad:

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Originally Posted by lopez

You did when you said 'in the popular consciousness (the Cahrlton team) was a team of English and Scotsmen with tenuous links to Ireland.'

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That was the case in the popular consciousness.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Heighway's links were more tenuous than most of the players you mention, but he qualifies as a genuine Irishman in your view.

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I made no comment on Heighway's links - I don't know what his links were. I do know, though, that the ROI team in the 70s could not be characterised in the same way as the Charlton team in terms of English and Scots players.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Obviously? Why are you 'obviously' all three?

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Because I'm from NI. Therefore Northern Irish. NI is in Ireland. Therefore Irish. NI is in the UK. Therefore British. How is that not obvious?

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Originally Posted by lopez

I've yet to meet the guy who is 3/4 English (presumably heritage) who thought he was '100% Irish'. Michael Robinson maybe?

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If you ever go to America you'll probably meet people who are 3/4 Portuguese and 1/4 Irish, have never been to Ireland, yet who proudly tell you that they are Irish. I have!:eek:

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Originally Posted by lopez

So?

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So the fact that not all these born and reared in Britain weren't granny rulers doesn't mean that the majority of the team wasn't born and reared in Britain.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Most people?

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Yes, in my experience.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Several key players? Namely? Outside Townsend and Aldridge?.

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Cascarino. Robinson. I'm sure there are quite a few more who won a considerable number of caps. You'd know better than me.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Win what? .

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The competition you started about who had the closer connection - the Hong Kong guy with the ROI granny or the NI guy with no ROI grandparents.

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Originally Posted by geysir

your subjective interpretation that a china man with one irish grandaddy means you are more connected to the Republic than Darron Gibson born in Derry.

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As far as I know Gibson has no grandparents from the Republic. If the "Chinaman" (allusions of racism) did have a grandparent from the Republic then quite obviously his blood connection is greater.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Your belief about a certain scale of connection has no relevance to the objective criteria, the scale of legal criteria that is used to determine eligibility for Irish citizenship and FiFA´s consistent interpretation and evaluation of the same criteria being over and above that of a grandparent connection.

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Zzzzzzzzzzz
Yeah, we know that. I've been saying that for weeks.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Don't know what you're getting at - there's a choice between the above and saying a nationalist is more Irish than a non-nationalist? That doesn't follow at all.
It doesn't: an ROI citizen is no "more" Irish than a UK citizen from NI.:mad:

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Blanchflower - don't know what age you are, but its not very long ago unionsts referred to themselves as anything but Irish - i.e., Ulsterman, British. I think the News Letter still uses Ulsterman/woman rather than Irish (Northern or otherwise!)

In fact, it made newspaper headlines down here in Mexico (and still gets a comment) when Big Ian refers to himself as Irish. Up to recently, we didn't think unionist liked being Irish:).

That could account as to why people might think we are ones who are 'pure' Irish. A bit like the IFA v FAI situation - if we were ever to unite in football I'm pretty sure the IFA would be claiming to be top dog!:rolleyes:

PS - I don't like the way you talk about our diaspora as if they are 2nd class Irish. We who still live here owe them (and their descendants) a great debt. The amount of cash that they sent back to feed and educate those who remained contributed greatly to our present prosperity.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

The competition

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What competition?

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you started

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youre pulling my leg

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about who had the closer connection -
the Hong Kong guy with the ROI granny or the NI guy with no ROI grandparents.

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Ah my question as to who is more connected in reference to criteria, criteria, Criteria? what thread are we on? eligibility criteria or a thread about your belief system? Personally I couldn´t care less about your belief system.

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As far as I know Gibson has no grandparents from the Republic. If the "Chinaman" (allusions of racism) did have a grandparent from the Republic then quite obviously his blood connection is greater.

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What relevance has your peculiar blood superiority beliefs got to do with established standards of eligibility criteria?

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Zzzzzzzzzzz
Yeah, we know that. I've been saying that for weeks.

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If you want to discuss your belief systems then "Other Topic"s may be more relevant and interesting for you.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

I think you have to ask yourself is the reason why NI hasn't availed of the granny rule as much as Ireland has done in the past more linked to not been able to get the players rather than some sort of "moral standing".

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Historically, of the four "home" nations, NI have always been the most resistant to picking non-NI born players. For example, when the others were selecting players on account of a parent, NI were still insisting it be the father (i.e. a mother wasn't sufficient). And when Grandparents came to be accepted by FIFA, the IFA were again the last of the four to avail of this.

As to why this should have been so, my guess is that there were mixed reasons. Some within the IFA will have felt this as a matter of principle i.e. international selection is an honour resulting from the circumstances of ones birth or heritage, not a convenience or a contrivance etc.

Some may have felt that native-born players will have had a greater affinity to the team, so will have tried harder. Others will not have liked to see a home-grown player deprived of a place by someone whose motives may be suspect (even if the latter were the more talented player)

Of course, the other Associations will also have had members who thought similarly. However, those in the IFA who thought were more likely to find support from others motivated by simple parochialism, chauvinism and a resistance to change (imo).

Another factor will have been that NI will have had lower expectations, even demands, for success than England (esp) or Scotland. Therefore, missing out on the odd player was more likely to be accepted than e.g. England and John Barnes.

Finally, the preferences and influence of the individual managers will have counted for something, with some being more open to widening the criteria than others and also more able to "swing it" with the relevant committees etc.

For myself, I'm proud of the fact that a little country like NI can produce, even if only occasionally, teams which can punch above their weight. And when this is achieved using 8, 9 even 10 "home grown" players, so much more so. (Which is one of the reasons, incidentally, why I and others are so aggrieved at the FAI selecting youngsters whom we have introduced to competitive football, btw)

That said, once the dam has been breeched, you can't put the water back in, so we might as well accept it as the "way of the world" and make the best of it, a factor which is reinforced by the fact that some of my all-time favourite players like Quinn and Dowie were born outside the Province.

Anyhow, your somewhat sneering assertion that we couldn't get the players to play for us is probably the least of the reasons for our situation. In fact, I seem to remember a player who was brought up in NI, who represented NI at schoolboy level, who wanted to play for our senior team, for a manager who wanted to pick him, was eligible by having all four grandparents NI born and bred, but was sadly rejected by the IFA since we weren't prepared to break our policy of only allowing qualification by birth or parent. What was his name again? Alan Kernaghan? :rolleyes:

Well as you point out EG, there obviously is a problem of acceptance in the IFA. However the IFA seems to break its policy of only allowing qualification by birth or parent whenever it seems fit - what's his name again. Paterson?

Maybe that's why players born in NI want to play elsewhere.

Lopez

Peter Thomas '' naturalised'' as an Irishman hence qualifying to play for the Republic. You have to be legally resident( with the correct form of permit) in the Republic for 5 years out of 8 the last 12 months of which is continuous residence to apply for naturalisation. Peter Thomas had played for Waterford for 8 years when he was capped by the Republic.
Jimmy Nicholl was born in Canada but raised in the Wee North.
David O'Leary was born in London but raised in the Republic. No difference as regards eligibility for their respective jurisdictions and both had a full set of parents born in the respective parts of the island.

As I may have raised elsewhere one grandfather of mine was born in Egypt and one of my grandmothers was born in Chile.
My mother was born in Belfast as were two other grandparents ( in Northern Ireland). I was born in Dublin as was my father.
As I understand it, if I had been good enough to play at international level, I was eligible to play for 1) Chile 2) Egypt 3) Northern Ireland and 4) The Republic. I would have been honoured to play for any of them.

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Originally Posted by janeymac

Blanchflower - don't know what age you are, but its not very long ago unionsts referred to themselves as anything but Irish - i.e., Ulsterman, British.
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Some unionists did and do. They are the mirror image of those who say you have to be a nationalist to be Irish (or at least the right type of Irish):mad:.

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Originally Posted by janeymac

I think the News Letter still uses Ulsterman/woman rather than Irish (Northern or otherwise!)

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Ulster is in Ireland. An Ulsterman is no less Irish than a Munsterman.:mad:

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Cascarino. Robinson. I'm sure there are quite a few more who won a considerable number of caps. You'd know better than me.

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You honestly think Robinson was a key player???!!! :rolleyes::D

Even Cas won the majority of his caps from the bench.

So I ask again, who were these 'several key players' you refer to?

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Some unionists did and do. They are the mirror image of those who say you have to be a nationalist to be Irish (or at least the right type of Irish):mad:.


Ulster is in Ireland. An Ulsterman is no less Irish than a Munsterman.:mad:

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100% agree with you on that, the sooner the elements of unionism you mention above realise that the better for all of us.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

100% agree with you on that, the sooner the elements of unionism you mention above realise that the better for all of us.

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and also the sooner people realise you dont have to be a republican to be call yourself irish the better for all of us.