Nothings straightforward when it comes to international allegiance unfortunately
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Nothings straightforward when it comes to international allegiance unfortunately
I don’t disagree, but I also chose my words carefully and they were in the immediate context of Obafemi and P-Stu’s comment that I quoted about him being the “least Irish player ever”. Birthplace is typically the most straightforward and reliable indicator of where players will end up playing internationally.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Let's be honest lads
if he is raised "irish". whether that's in Cobh or in East ham to Irish parents or within an Irish community. He doesn't turn down the opportunity to play against Belgium to play against Birmingham in the championship.
I think it's getting more complicated in fairness. Munir played once for Spain and then was never called up again I think, so I'd be inclined to let him switch to Morocco - but maybe after a period of time without a call up. If Spain don't want him, why not let him switch? But Declan Rice - sorry, you don't get to jump ship quite so quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by ColourfulPeanut
It's not a great solution either though, and I'm not entirely opposed to your solution either.. I'm not sure there is a really neat one.
Though while on the topic, actually, I think players being capped for countries because they've played in the domestic league for a few years is silly too. I'd nip that one in the bud - though again it's not so easy if they get legitimate residency status and become citizens of that country.
I'll throw in a "Citation needed" there. Were Paul McGrath, Curtis Fleming or Dave O'Leary ever going to play for England? I think cultural influence is a bigger indicator.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Stephen Ireland, Roy Keane…… Obafemi is not the first player to opt out of an International call-up, and his was only a friendly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
Yeah, its not a perfect science, and I am definitely not claiming it to be. On your point about cultural influence, i'll raise you a Jack Grealish who seems to have been embedded deeply in the Birmingham Irish scene and spent a lot of holiday time with his Irish family which meant nothing when push came to shove and the country of birth came calling. It also seemed to matter very little to Declan Rice (*spits*) despite the cultural influence of 3 senior Irish caps (I acknowledge, i am probably over-expanding the definition of cultural influence with Declan's situation).Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Why i think country of birth might be the more reliable and straightforward indicator as to for whom any given player will play is based on the high percentage of caps that are distributed globally being granted to individuals who were born in the issuing country - which i would estimate would easily be greater than 80%. With that said, imperfect and all as this indicator is, it would be really interesting - but likely impossible - to see reliable data related to dual/multi-eligible nationals and how those caps are allocated.
In addition to "place of birth" and "cultural influence", I suppose another factor is "opportunism/ity".
By my reckoning it's simple, ignoring the subjective Irishness factor, first the player qualifies and second he/she wants to play, the third factor though rules all, that is the manager. Here in this case I suspect that the senior team manager is in solidarity by default with the u21 coach, therefore Obafemi is shunned for better or for worse.
So where does SK speaking to him, his club manager, trying to call him up to the last squad and keeping the door publicly open for future squads despite an increasingly flimsy looking fob off tie into all this geysir ?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
What's with the attitude craftytoepoke? Who knows what manager speak is about, but if Obafemi refused a definite call up to this last squad then he is no longer a player of interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
& you know this do you ?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Or is this the latest bout of your on / off relationship with reality being presented as fact and quietly dropped later on ?
Or you could look at it this way - he's a young lad at the start of his career who has been hampered by hamstring injuries and is finally putting a run of games and goals together - why would he risk that progress for a friendly against a second-string Belgium side?Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
You kind of are claiming it to be though when you say that Obafemi is more Irish than Kilbane "by the most straightforward definition, absolutely yes"Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
OK, but when I threw in a "citation needed" comment, I didn't mean "make things up" :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
I mean, if that 80% figure is even close to correct, surely it's skewed by a lot of players only really having one choice at international level? Kelleher, Collins, Parrott, Manning, Egan and so on all play for their country of birth - but who else are they going to play for?
By comparison, the 23-man Senegal squad against Egypt in the World Cup play-off last month had 10 players born in France (and one in Spain). That doesn't back up the 80% argument.
I think it's probably more reasonable to say that - in general - a player with strong links with more than one country (eg Jack Grealish or Munir) will be interested in both options but will plump for the best team that will have them. And - in general - a player with a weak link with one country and a strong link with a second (eg Paul McGrath, Dave O'Leary, Curtis Fleming) will tend to go for the one they have the strong link with.
There's always exceptions of course, and maybe Obafemi will be one. It's why I think the June squads will be interesting.
Cookie cutter templates like this may not be as useful for players with ties to 3 countries. And Obafemi is already an exception to the rules of thumb you are using above given that he played underage for us and senior for us when he thought it would tie him.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
Are you not adequately versed in written English?
I wrote if Obafemi refused a definite call-up to this squad, the conditional.
I did not write Obafemi refused a call-up.
To try get into the starting line up when the competitive games come around, now he has zero chance of startingQuote:
Originally Posted by samhaydenjr
As Pineapplestu said June will tell us all
Well, what you actually wrote when you rejoined the conversation was he had been shunned in solidarity with Jimmy Crawford, yet now you're speculating on the minutiae & his reaction to his call up a mere two posts later.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Always a pleasure geysir, never a chore, always entertaining, also rarely credible.
We'll leave it there so :) :)
Remember, all this started with your definitive and subsequently reinforced assertion that Obafemi is "the least Irish player to have ever played for Ireland"... :)
No, not at all, thats a bad take. The statement I made is clearly qualified as being looked at through one lens only and the one that was initially put forward in rebuttal to your claim that Obafemi is "the least Irish player to ever have played for Ireland".Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Oh come on! So you can posit the vague category of "cultural influence" as bigger indicator without a citation for your own theory or any data to back it up!! Hardly seems fair that we have a double standard... haha. But, for what its worth, I am happy to add it to the list of indicators.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
It was an estimate and i am fine if it is wrong but i would be surprised if it was significantly less than that. What would you estimate it at? Also, i did say that it would be nice to see what the rates would be for those who are multi/dual qualified and what that percentage would be as i would imagine it is different. I mean, i am trying to be reasonable in my position. At this point I am just trying to have a conversation, not win a debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I think you are just repackaging the "cultural influence" factor there.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I mentioned "opportunism/opportunity" as a third element. Are there others to add to the conversation? Or are you just interested in proving my point wrong? :)
I must admit Im a bit burned out by the constant "will he, wont he" situations with dual eligible players.
At the turn of this year I would have said that Obafemi is a total bust and more likely to be playing L2 football in 2 years than playing International football. Any time I seen him for the U21s he was crap. Kenny, and McCarthy before him were right not to have him anywhere near the senior team in the last few years.
Then suddenly he gets a burst of form for a couple months and we are all freaking out whether he is going to stick with us or defect somewhere else. Its not long ago we were all losing our minds over Mipo and now he looks a million miles from ever playing International football for anyone even if he has committed to us.
At the time of the recent window I took Kenny at his word that he has spoken with Obafemi and the reasons for him being left out I though were fair enough. Since then though, the more I think about it and look at his past attitude issues at club level theres something that doesnt sit well with me. Nothing I can put my finger on, just my version of the famed Stutts gut test. I just have a feeling that he is having a sulk because he wasnt called up before.
Again, I have a feeling that he wont be called up in the summer games and the excuse we will hear is that he is resting after his 1st full season... but heres the thing, Im still not convinced he will be a top player. He is on a good run, but I've watch some Swansea games and he has looked average enough. Yes, hes got some good strikers goals, but I also would be surprised if he goes rest of season without another goal. We've seen plenty of strikers in the past go on a good run of form for a couple months only to revert to being crap again after, hell I even remember Michael Ricketts looking like a world beater in the Premiership for a season and then never to be heard from again.
My point is that yes, he may turn out to be an excellent player long term and decide he wants to play for England. Then we would have a right to freak out but the chances are he is going to be a pretty good player who will probably get 20 -30 caps for us and in years to come we'll wonder why there was so much fuss
Not sure if definitive statements start "probably" in fairness.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
But for all the bluster, I don't see anything to solidly challenge that view when it comes to a guy whose sole connection with Ireland is that he was born here and lived here for a few weeks. And I'm not sure what the problem with it is either. As John83 says, it's not meant to be a stick to beat him with, but simply a factor in whether he's liable to have second thoughts.
I don't know the stats for how many players play for the country of their birth, and I don't think it's relevant for the reasons I've given (ie lots and lots of players only have one option).
At the end of the day, while I agree with you that opportunity is a factor in deciding who to play for, I can't at all agree with you when you say -
I think culture is more important/reliable, and I've given a few examples of people born in England who were never going to play for England to try back this up.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
I suppose what might be more of a concern might be that he is talked into taking an England under 21 call up, plays for them at that level, probably isn't good enough to play for them at senior level, but is then ineligible for us after he switches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg