Group D - opponent watch!

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Scotland are very capable of taking 1 or 3 points off a team of that standard.

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Are they really? Scotland took no points off Germany in their last meeting. For what reason do you see them potentially winning three points next time? Why would Scotland be any more capable of taking points off them than we would be considering we're fairly evenly matched, we actually got a point last time and they are, as you say not indomitable? Why do you give undue credit to Scotland (despite their loss) but dismiss our hard-grafted point as a case of just having scraped through?

Well since we beat Holland; Scotland have beaten us (2016), Croatia x 2 (2014), France x 2, Ukraine (2008), Norway, Slovenia (2006) and Holland in (2004).

We have beaten Slovakia.

Scotland have 9 wins against direct rivals for qualification as opposed to our 1 win.

I haven't even included wins over Lithuania & Iceland in those lean years and it's debatable we would even beat them. In fairness I think they are closer in standard to teams like Macedonia, Georgia & Armenia.

I would fancy Scotland over Ireland all day if one of those teams had to take 3 points off Germany.

I think Scotland's performance against Germany (a) was similar to ours. We had the rub of the green then. They didn't. What goes around comes around though. We got enough bail outs in the 90th minute. What matters is what happens in the preceding 89 minutes, but we have proven time and time again that we cannot win a game against decent opposition and we cannot close out a game. All we can do, because of our lack of fortitude, is chase a game when we have nothing to lose and go for broke.

It's all well and good playing a certain way for twenty minutes but why can't it be maintained over 90 minutes? That's what Ireland need to do.

To be honest we got lucky in Germany...
And in general we've been pretty mediocre in every game, bar the Colonial Theme Park(Med.version)...

I was looking there Scotland could have a very difficult play off.in fact the teams in the playoffs look a lot harder than lots in 2nd!it will probably right itself.

I am putting it out there now. We will not make a play-off or second. you can call me out on this later but it is not going to happen. Scotland will do more than us as was my fear at the start of the campaign.

and I don't think our group is that tough either, I don't buy that. lots of average teams in average groups doing well. GERMANY are showing to be still going through post world cup lack of motivation and Scotland and Poland are very average. showed in the euros and England dispatched of them.handily enough last campaign.

The funny thing is after all this is finished we will probably have had one bad result which is the away loss. but we are just totally incapable of beating average teams. I think in that respect, draws and respectable results, we must be one of the most consistent in Europe.

Wow Paul, that's a bold prediction even by your standards. :)

I think it's a tough group but not necessarily the toughest. I think we all knew when the draw was made we needed to do something we haven't done for over a decade, get 4 points from a close peer.

Im that confident of being correct ill do a paddy ashdown, and give you something to choose I do in the event I am wrong, which I wont be hence I'm giving you that :)

I saw Scotland on Saturday. They were muck.

I watched England yesterday. Inventive football and an exciting game. When they played us, drivel. When Scotland played Poland and Germany, they played with a bit if swagger. When they played us, drivel.

Are we the footballing equivalent of a Black Hole?

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Well since we beat Holland; Scotland have beaten us (2016), Croatia x 2 (2014), France x 2, Ukraine (2008), Norway, Slovenia (2006) and Holland in (2004).

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Whatever about what Scotland might have done eight or nine years ago, they're really not in any way superior to ourselves at present, as Saturday's game demonstrated. The fact remains we're the team with 1 point off Germany to Scotland's 0.

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I think Scotland's performance against Germany (a) was similar to ours. We had the rub of the green then. They didn't. What goes around comes around though. We got enough bail outs in the 90th minute. What matters is what happens in the preceding 89 minutes, but we have proven time and time again that we cannot win a game against decent opposition and we cannot close out a game. All we can do, because of our lack of fortitude, is chase a game when we have nothing to lose and go for broke.

It's all well and good playing a certain way for twenty minutes but why can't it be maintained over 90 minutes? That's what Ireland need to do.

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Football matches last 90 minutes plus stoppage time. I'm not sure why you would wish to discard the final minute plus stoppage time when the game is about playing right up until the final whistle. A lot of teams don't have the discipline and motivation to do that, but we have shown in this group that we do; we've scored against Georgia, Germany and Poland during this period of time in games. That's not a "rub of the green". It's not necessarily the cutting edge that we really need either, but what it is is admirable persistence. We fought hard for that point in Germany. We defended well and took our chance brilliantly when it arrived. The goal against Poland came after a half of concerted pressure.

Scotland can normally win one or two, maybe even three games, in a qualifying campaign against teams they are in direct competition with.

It takes Ireland on average four or five matches against these teams simply to get three points. Draw, draw, loss, loss, draw etc...

Ireland have won one game against a team of any kind of standard over the last 15 years of competition. I wouldn't be surprised if we win one more over the next 15. It's utterly depressing.

Scotland would be more likely to beat Poland & Germany than Ireland. Maybe they would be more likely to slip up against Georgia. At this juncture though with the way things are going....

Scotland perform better against bigger teams and do a better job at keeping them at arms length over a sustained period of time.

It's all well and good Ireland coming back from a losing position and performing better for 15-20 minutes when the opposing team steps off and allows them to have the impetus but you need to sustain this over a game. It's not economical to do things the way Ireland does them. If the Germany game in Berlin lasted just ten minutes longer they would have went back in front; Poland too, in Dublin. Then we remain completely incapable, and have been for the longest time, of holding on to a lead. We clearly don't know what to do when we have it. In Dublin at the weekend it's almost like we subconsciously wanted Scotland to draw level. They had the freedom of the middle of the park and nobody was doing the most elementary things like staying close to your man and closing out space.

And if someone brings up Paris as an Ireland win one more time, just one more time! That was a two-legged tie. We were drawing the tie. We were not winning. This is why it went to extra-time and they won the tie.

So Stan has that over Kerr, Trapattoni and O'Neill. We actually beat a direct opponent and remained competitive against strong(ish) teams like Germany, Czech Republic and Wales. MON looks like he is going to be as big a failure.

What about that win in Paris though?

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Scotland can normally win one or two, maybe even three games, in a qualifying campaign against teams they are in direct competition with.

It takes Ireland on average four or five matches against these teams simply to get three points. Draw, draw, loss, loss, draw etc...

Ireland have won one game against a team of any kind of standard over the last 15 years of competition. I wouldn't be surprised if we win one more over the next 15. It's utterly depressing.

Scotland would be more likely to beat Poland & Germany than Ireland. Maybe they would be more likely to slip up against Georgia. At this juncture though with the way things are going....

Scotland perform better against bigger teams and do a better job at keeping them at arms length over a sustained period of time.

It's all well and good Ireland coming back from a losing position and performing better for 15-20 minutes when the opposing team steps off and allows them to have the impetus but you need to sustain this over a game. It's not economical to do things the way Ireland does them. If the Germany game in Berlin lasted just ten minutes longer they would have went back in front; Poland too, in Dublin. Then we remain completely incapable, and have been for the longest time, of holding on to a lead. We clearly don't know what to do when we have it. In Dublin at the weekend it's almost like we subconsciously wanted Scotland to draw level. They had the freedom of the middle of the park and nobody was doing the most elementary things like staying close to your man and closing out space.

And if someone brings up Paris as an Ireland win one more time, just one more time! That was a two-legged tie. We were drawing the tie. We were not winning. This is why it went to extra-time and they won the tie.

So Stan has that over Kerr, Trapattoni and O'Neill. We actually beat a direct opponent and remained competitive against strong(ish) teams like Germany, Czech Republic and Wales. MON looks like he is going to be as big a failure.

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That's one thing he has. Pity about everything else they have over him.

Hello, me again, with my magic Welsh Reference Detector. (Actually, I don't have one, I just read these forums around international dates and your group is shaping up to be a bit more exciting than ours. Nice boring 1st place for Wales so far which is fine by me.) :)

Couldn't help noticing TOWK described the Welsh team of 2007 as 'strong-ish'. I think it's worth pointing out that that team contained one or more of the following players in CB positions most of the time:-

Lewin Nyatanga - then a 19-year-old Bristol City rookie
Craig Morgan - of Peterborough United and MK Dons fame
Steve Evans - spent the vast majority of his career playing in the Welsh Premier

OK, so we also had players like Bellamy, Koumas and Giggs going forward, but we had a massive dearth of depth below this. Not a terrible team maybe, but not very strong either.

Anyway, my take on the Irish performance in this campaign. I think in all reality it was always going to be Germany 1st, Poland 2nd and then a close run thing between Scotland and you for the 3rd place. The margins do seem to have been very fine which is what I would have expected. I don't think you should be too disheartened over not winning a game against Scotland. By all accounts, you deserved to win last week and with very fine margins it can take time. A change in manager definitely wouldn't be my solution. I think Michael O'Neill and Coleman have both shown that a second campaign with the same manager sometimes works. I wouldn't even think that any lack of progress necessarily means you won't get it right in a second campaign. We seem to have gone from defensively hopeless to defensively impenetrable overnight. With a bit of luck, things will start going in the right direction soon.

It's not impossible for you to qualify and you may get that win against Poland. I saw the earlier game between you and them and it was definitely a deserved draw. They may have qualified by then too. It's out of your hands but I wouldn't give up yet.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

If the Germany game in Berlin lasted just ten minutes longer they would have went back in front; Poland too, in Dublin.

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And if they'd gone on 20 minutes longer we'd have equalised again. Why bother speculating on mythical 100-minute matches?

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

So Stan has that over Kerr, Trapattoni and O'Neill. We actually beat a direct opponent and remained competitive against strong(ish) teams like Germany, Czech Republic and Wales. MON looks like he is going to be as big a failure.

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As big a failure as who? Stan, you mean? You initially appeared to be praising his competitiveness.

Possibly exaggerating the strength of the pot 5 Welsh team then too. We were well out of the running in that group with a few games to go, were we not? Not to mention the Cyprus and San Marino embarrassments. Little point in looking at one result in isolation if trying to make some sort of comparison.

BBC - Euro 2016: 10 reasons why Germany will win in France

Hopefully Robert will calm down a bit before October...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClGo9V-_-ug

Gordon Strachan names Scotland squad for crucial Euro qualifying double

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Originally Posted by Scotland Squad

Craig Gordon (Celtic), David Marshall (Cardiff City), Allan McGregor (Hull City), Christophe Berra (Ipswich Town), Craig Forsyth (Derby County), Gordon Greer (Brighton & Hove Albion), Grant Hanley (Blackburn Rovers), Alan Hutton (Aston Villa), Russell Martin (Norwich City), Charlie Mulgrew (Celtic), Andrew Robertson (Hull City), Steven Whittaker (Norwich City), Ikechi Anya (Watford), Stuart Armstrong (Celtic), Scott Brown (Celtic), Darren Fletcher (West Bromwich Albion), James Forrest (Celtic), Shaun Maloney (Chicago Fire), James Morrison (West Bromwich Albion), James McArthur (Crystal Palace), Matt Ritchie (AFC Bournemouth), Johnny Russell (Derby County), Steven Fletcher (Sunderland), Leigh Griffiths (Celtic), Chris Martin (Derby County), Steven Naismith (Everton)

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Goalkeepers and Naismith aside, do they have anything much better than we have? And I think Westwood at his best isn't far behind Gordon, who I really rate and doesn't even start for Scotland. There are a few I'd have in our team but very marginal and none in the back 4.

I agree regarding the goalkeepers. The only reason I'm envious of theirs is because we're not picking the right one. I like Gordon too and Marshall is class, but Westwood was on the Championship team of the year ahead of him.

I'd take Robertson for left back alright and move Brady further forward. Naismith is useful for sure but I wouldn't be too fussed about him. I wouldn't even say it's a certainty he'd make my preferred XI if he was available to us, but he'd definitely be a good option.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

do they have anything much better than we have?

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Management that are getting more than the sum of their parts, the complete opposite to us.