Financial Crisis

once again I find myself in total agreement with Mc Williams in this article.

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2009/0...-time-to-panic

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Originally Posted by Deco

The “Pride Construct” of the Irish mindset is a massive obstacle to it happening.

We should drop the ‘pride contruct’ - and try and get back our self-respect. We lost our self-respect when Charles J.Haughey became Taoiseach - and we have to regain it yet. You only have to look at the way things operate in Ireland in both the public and private sector, to realise that Ireland is a society structurally designed to accomodate the gombeen mentality.

Being Irish is all about obedience, going with the herd, believing all sorts of fairytales, and myths. There is a whole heap of stuff about Ireland that is complete nonsense. We spent the last fifteen years ‘celebrating’ like as if that was somehow or other an acheivement superior to the Dutch draining the Zuider See, or the Chinese building the Great Wall. And now we see the result. There is not one single Irish bank capable of functioning properly. We are Iceland six months on. There are people in Ireland who think that a drunken stupor is a cultural event. And they will not under any circumstance consider the fact that such a mentality might be incerdibly flawed - and even idiotic.

With all the addictive and psycho-delusional tendencies in the Irish population, is it any wonder that this country is suddenly a bankrupt, depressed place, full of social problems and utter chaos ??

I have read the work of James Kunstler and his critique of America. All I can say - is Thank God, he has not seen Ireland. Ireland has all the defects of the current American social model, and an insiduous layer of Irish problems in addition. The Americans have the 1000 mile Ceasar Salad, Ireland has the 1000 mile drinking binge. Americans have the mall, we have Liffey Valley, etc. bankrupt and being paid for by the taxpayer. Michael Moore has critiqued the US healthcare system. But at least it works. The HSE is failing, and is 18% filled with management. Americans fire their incompetent regulators, and jail the corrupt bankers. In Ireland both constituencies slip quietly out a side exit, claim full pensions and all have a get together in an exclusive golf resort in Portugal owned by the biggest tax avoider in the country.

I actually think that the entire ‘celebrating’ culture is to prevent us from actually thinking. Thinking is dangerous in Ireland. It makes you all sorts of enemies. Thinking is supposed to be a privelege of the gombeen classes - the sloggers are told to amuse themselves and not do too much thinking - in case they might realise what is happening, and end up causing some sort of revolution !!!

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I like this guy more.

after receiving a letter from one of the local counsellors,I was discussed to see that it was government letter surly this would be the first things stopped in this financial crisis wasting government money on this rubbish.

It's an absolute disgrace that individuals and parties are allowed to use envelopes and postage paid for by tax money. They're all at it, I complained to Labour about it and their response was that "everyone does it"! That makes it ok?

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

It's an absolute disgrace that individuals and parties are allowed to use envelopes and postage paid for by tax money. They're all at it, I complained to Labour about it and their response was that "everyone does it"! That makes it ok?

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The problem is that if they stoppe doing it, they'd likely loose the next election and be about as useful as the Crack Suicide Squad in The Life of Brian. If they campaign for the system to be changed while using it themselves, they have their head bitten off in the media for the hypocrisy.

That's left us in a situation where anyone who disagrees with the system is forced to stay quiet. When questioned, all TDs will claim to be in favour of reforming the system to remove the abuses but we know that more than half of them are lying since the system remains unreformed. What we don't know is which TDs, if any, genuinely want to see the system changed. Any who speak out, without committing electoral suicide by refusing the allowances themselves, are attacked by those outside of politics who should be their allies.

There's a whole other argument to be had about whether we should have public or private funding of politics. I've never known any radio or tv conversation of the topic to consist of anything other than politicians and journalists shouting insults at each other. I actually don't think we're mature enough as a society to discuss this type of thing reasonably, so we're likely to keep the system we have for want of the ability to change it.

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Originally Posted by forza rovers

after receiving a letter from one of the local counsellors,I was discussed to see that it was government letter surly this would be the first things stopped in this financial crisis wasting government money on this rubbish.

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Usually they send these letters just to be seen to be sending something. I remember Bertie sending me one about 2 years ago saying he would add filter light to traffic light where our side road joins the main road. This was at the time when he was Taoiseach & I am sure had more important things to do than waste time on such triviality. Needless to say no such light was added.

Sure they're the same with renumeration.

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Originally Posted by pete

Usually they send these letters just to be seen to be sending something. I remember Bertie sending me one about 2 years ago saying he would add filter light to traffic light where our side road joins the main road. This was at the time when he was Taoiseach & I am sure had more important things to do than waste time on such triviality. Needless to say no such light was added.

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Do you honestly think he wrote it or probably even knew about it. Waste of resources I would agree but not his time and energy.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Do you honestly think he wrote it or probably even knew about it. Waste of resources I would agree but not his time and energy.

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You mean that was not his signature? :eek:

My idea for a step to help this economy in an admittedly tiny way -

Require all purchasers to pay a 50-cent deposit on every glass bottle of alcohol sold anywhere in the country. The deposit can be recovered in full at certain centres / shops.

The positives are that a certain percent of the bottles will never be returned, and the money earned by the government will be millions, I'd imagine (easily enough to run the scheme and have a lot left over). Added positive is a reduction in the amount of broken beer bottles littering our streets every day of the year.

A drop in the ocean I know, but I think it is a decent idea.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

renumeration.

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Hmm, I spy, with my little eye, something beginning with C. It's a......... Curiously Appropriate Malapropism!
It's actually extraordinarily appropriate in the current circumstance if you think of reNUMeration as perhaps meaning something like "putting a new figure upon," which is pretty much what you intended I think. Wow. What a rare and wonderful occurrence! Hurray! :)

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Originally Posted by osarusan

My idea for a step to help this economy in an admittedly tiny way -

Require all purchasers to pay a 50-cent deposit on every glass bottle of alcohol sold anywhere in the country. The deposit can be recovered in full at certain centres / shops.

The positives are that a certain percent of the bottles will never be returned, and the money earned by the government will be millions, I'd imagine (easily enough to run the scheme and have a lot left over). Added positive is a reduction in the amount of broken beer bottles littering our streets every day of the year.

A drop in the ocean I know, but I think it is a decent idea.

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Fair play Osarusan, great to see a bit of imagination. Just like questions, I don't think there's any such thing as a stupid idea. Though I'll hold off on voting Yay until due consideration has been afforded to the idea!

One issue on the implementation side of things that strikes me: I think the levy must correspond, be indexed, to the purchase price. So for example, 50 cent on a €1 bottle of beer is crazy (and would only make more people Go North), but it's not so crazy on an €80 bottle of champagne. So I'd suggest an increasing rate to the levy, maybe along the lines of 10 cent per bottle for anything under a fiver; 20 cent for between a fiver and twenty; 50 cent for between 20 and 50; and if anyone is buying something for more than €50, well, in that case, an alarm should sound, precipitating the deployment of an expert pick-pocketer to commandeer what he can from the wallet of the purchaser.

One further thought on the levy levels. Setting a fairly low amount may lead to a perverse but pleasing conclusion, in that the lower the levy the less incentive the purchaser has to return the bottle, meaning more of the tax can be withheld. Although in practice, one imagines there will be a high Return Level. On that point (returning), I learned from a preemptory junket that the Glass Holder needs his purchase receipt to reclaim the levy, which is redeemable at the shop where he bought the glass. Perhaps to ensure that eventually all glasses get recycled, a reward of say maximum 5cent a bottle can be given (it can't be too high or we may end up losing money if scavengers locate millions of long-lost bottles or the price of producing glass plummets to below the rate we offer!).


I hopefully suggest an incidental benefit may arise in the form of a sense of responsibility being engendered by the scheme. Making people aware of the rubbish they produce. In fairness I think most people are fairly good with regard to glass, less so in general.

One limitation to the usage of the levy that must be thought about - ie how can we get around it. Restaurants and bars. A potentially lucrative area that misses out under your scheme as even though you could charge them the levy, they will almost certainly return the glasses given the large amount they will collect.
Overall then, I am beginning to wonder whether the whole thing is worth the effort in the form you initially propose. It needs to be imagined a little further maybe. I excitedly await the thoughts from the prime minister of Osaru-sania. :)



A couple of other related thoughts I've just had that I feel compelled to record:
1. I have a suspicion your idea was conceived in the Text Tax thread. In that thread I think I briefly touched upon the success of the Plastic Bag Levy. Just thinking about it now again, it really is the paragon of these kind of levies. As such, it should offer a template and set the standard by which we adjudge the merits of other levies. There are practically no defects to it. It's a win-win-win-win tax! It raises a reasonable bit of cash; it's easy to implement; there are no victims (except maybe the plastic bag producers, but they're evil anyway); and lastly, it is very good for the natural landscape. Which leads me to my last point.
2. ****ing plastic! One of the great curses of our time. As a waste, it is immeasurably more of an issue than glass. I feel particularly strongly about it as there is a miles-long stretch of it along my local beach. It's absolutely horrible. Glorious expanse of sand, imposing dunes, a puppy chasing a tennis ball, brooding ocean, crashing waves, imperious mountain, and then a sideways glance and you're confronted with a technicolour display of assorted plastic waste settled on the sand until God knows when. Frrrrrraaaghhhhhhhhhhhhh.
So while I've given some consideration to your glass idea, I'll give a hell of a lot more to any ideas you have for constraining the disgusting, insidious spread of plastic!

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Do you honestly think he wrote it or probably even knew about it. Waste of resources I would agree but not his time and energy.

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No, it was probably some civil servant paid for by us. Talking of wasting resources, the number of civil servants employed to do party work for Ministers is a disgrace. Did I here right earlier in the week that Cowen has a team of 8 purely for his own use (not Government business)?

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Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

One issue on the implementation side of things that strikes me: I think the levy must correspond, be indexed, to the purchase price.....

One further thought on the levy levels. Setting a fairly low amount may lead to a perverse but pleasing conclusion, in that the lower the levy the less incentive the purchaser has to return the bottle, meaning more of the tax can be withheld. Although in practice, one imagines there will be a high Return Level. On that point (returning), I learned from a preemptory junket that the Glass Holder needs his purchase receipt to reclaim the levy, which is redeemable at the shop where he bought the glass. Perhaps to ensure that eventually all glasses get recycled, a reward of say maximum 5cent a bottle can be given (it can't be too high or we may end up losing money if scavengers locate millions of long-lost bottles or the price of producing glass plummets to below the rate we offer!).

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The primary aim of the scheme would be a reduction in the amount of glass not recycled, and instead left smashed on pavements and streets. The income derived from bottles not returned would be a by-product of the scheme.

While setting a low levy would lower the incentive to return bottles and thereby increase money gained, it would mean that the main aim of promoting recycling and cleaning our streets would be hindered.

I'd still be in favour of setting a standard 50-cent deposit (it is not a tax) so that the incentive to return the bottles remains high - high enough to make people smashing bottles against walls or on pavements think twice about doing so by realising that for every 2 or 3 bottles smashed, a new beer could have been bought.

On your point of having scavengers locating long-lost bottles for the 50-cent prize for each bottle - it would cost the state 5 million euros if scavengers retrieved 10 million bottles - a price I think is worth paying, as that money will certainly be recouped withing a few years of operating the scheme.

The possible problems with glass companies producing glass cheaply can be avoided by future changes in the price of the deposit. Another potential problem might be the importation of old glass bottles simply to get the 50-cent refund on each one.

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Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

2. ****ing plastic! One of the great curses of our time. As a waste, it is immeasurably more of an issue than glass.

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I wouldn't disagree with anything you have written about plastic, but I'm coming from the perspective of a parent whose 2-year-old child loves to try and pick up shiny things wherever she goes, and is still liable to the occasional fall while walking. From this point of view, plastic is a far less serious concern.

EDIT : Maybe a mod wants to split this off from the "financial crisis" thread to a new "Recycling" thread?

I suppose only a matter ofd time before Fingleton caused political strife.

Government try to get bonus back

Have to ask why they did not make executive pay a condition of the deposit guarantee but they didn't do that in the US either when gave AIG billions.

27 million is a staggering pension for an Executive in a Building Society. Given the pensions politicians get maybe they will be quieter on that topic...

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Today’s Cabinet meeting comes after it was revealed that one Irish Nationwide’s own board members, Danny Kitchen, had agreed to replace Michael Fingleton as chief executive of the building society but he later declined the job after the Government capped the salary for the position at €360,000 a year.

Mr Kitchen, who is currently the Irish Stock Exchange’s nominated director on the Irish Takeover Panel, became a non-executive director of Irish Nationwide last October. He has experience in both finance and property.

Mr Kitchen declined to comment. Asked whether he would accept the job if the salary was increased to the Government’s higher cap of €500,000 for senior bankers, he said: “It is what it is.”

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Is the 500k salary cap counter-productive? Will top candidates for bank jobs feel that is not enough for those jobs?

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Originally Posted by pete

Is the 500k salary cap counter-productive? Will top candidates for bank jobs feel that is not enough for those jobs?

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Depends on how you define a top candidate I suppose. My instinct is if they don't think 500k is enough ...**** 'em. Let them off to see what they can get elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

Depends on how you define a top candidate I suppose. My instinct is if they don't think 500k is enough ...**** 'em. Let them off to see what they can get elsewhere.

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Given the loss expectations at all the Irish banks over the next year or two they don't deserve to be paid anymore than CIROC is recommending. By all means pay them more, when
1)the institutions are profitable
2) Govt. investment is no longer required; and
3) performance has been demonstrated over a longer term than one year (deferred remuneration)

€500k is too much. It's just something else the state will have to cover when the inevitable nationalisations happen.

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Originally Posted by Macy

€500k is too much. It's just something else the state will have to cover when the inevitable nationalisations happen.

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What's the going rate for the CEO of a semi-state? I'd assume it's around 350-500k? They(bank CEOs) certainly don't deserve more than that, particularly incumbents who contributed to the mess.

€222k is the top of the scale on the published list.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

What's the going rate for the CEO of a semi-state? I'd assume it's around 350-500k? They certainly don't deserve more than that, particularly incumbents who contributed to the mess.

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IMO the incumbents should not be there especially for Anglo & IN. If you were to attract external experts would 500k be enough for them?