Eligibility Rules, Okay

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Originally Posted by Gather round

What a load of exaggerated-outraged waffle. I don't "cling" to anything in the past, whether King Billy, the Famine or the sort of baloney that has Obama qualifying as Oirish through one great-great six or seven generations back.

You are obviously in denial about, or possibly didn't understand, where I referred to people qualifying through a single grandparent. Meaning that, obviously, five of their other six most recent ancestors aren't from Ireland, and are quite likely to have "embellished" their (grand)child with various senses of otherness.

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Oh dear. You said:
"Nearly half your team in a recent qualifier have never actually lived in the country. Many such players qualify through one ancestor who they may never have met."

I have then shown you that none of the 5 players who played in that match met your criteria.

And you cling to that due to the province and team that you endorse, as is your right.

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I have then shown you that none of the 5 players who played in that match met your criteria.

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45%....and what about the other 6?

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

45%....and what about the other 6?

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They are all born in Ireland. So I presume they've met their Irish parents and/or Irish grandparents. The 5 players refers to the born abroad players.

Edit - Gotcha.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

The same widely applies to Scotland, Wales and the Irish Republic, most starkly in the example I quoted above. Nearly half your team in a recent qualifier have never actually lived in the country. Many such players qualify through one ancestor who they may never have met.

You may prefer to distinguish with exaggerated rhetoric about the Diaspora. I don't see much difference in practice. You're right though that it's all hypothetical: the rules are unlikely to become more restrictive any time soon, so we'll all continue to recruit England's cast offs.

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We'll be specific and refer to the most recent qualifier.

Ireland 2-2 Austria

Team:
Forde- Irish-Born
Clark- English-born to 2 Irish parents
O'Shea- Irish-Born
Coleman- Irish-Born
Wilson- Irish-Born
Whelan- Irish-Born
McCarthy- Scottish-born
Sammon- Irish-Born
Walters- English-Born to an Irish mother
Long- Irish-Born.

3 players were not born in Ireland. One holds nothing but Irish blood (Clark), the other was carried in the womb of an Irish woman for 9 months and it was from there he entered this world (Walters) and lastly, McCarthy who has re-iterated the influence his grandfather had on him time and time again, so presumably he has met him before.

Henceforth, your claim is completely ill-informed. Furthermore, that's more or less our first 11, with Keane, St. Ledger and McGeady for Sammon, Clark and Walters being the likely changes (the ratio of Irish-born to non-Irish born remaining at 8:3).

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Originally Posted by Irwin3

I have then shown you that none of the 5 players who played in that match met your criteria

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All five met the criterion of never having lived in the Irish Republic, which I raised merely to point out that all the other British and Irish teams rely on a large number of players from England. Given that they do, and that only one grandparent is needed to qualify, it's pretty clear that many players will do so in the way I described. It's nice how pleased Cox or McGeady's grandparents were. Do you really think there wouldn't have been similar enthusiasm- maybe even from the same individual relatives- if they'd played for Scotland or England instead?

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And you cling to that due to the province and team that you endorse, as is your right

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To repeat, I don't cling to anything: I support my local football team as I always have.

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Originally Posted by Ole Ole

3 players were not born in Ireland. One holds nothing but Irish blood (Clark), the other was carried in the womb of an Irish woman for 9 months and it was from there he entered this world (Walters) and lastly, McCarthy who has re-iterated the influence his grandfather had on him time and time again, so presumably he has met him before.

Henceforth, your claim is completely ill-informed

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Thanks Ole. You've just confirmed my point, ie your team recruits a lot of players from other countries. Sometimes, five might start an important qualifier, sometimes only three.

I don't do all that Irish blood thing, I'm afraid. Makes you sound like Patrick Pearse. It's not really relevant to team selection: a better player with one Irish grandparent will outrank one with two Irish parents, as you know perfectly well.

Just to clarify, I assumed that single-ancestor qualification was widely recognised and wasn't intending to offend any of your current squad or fans.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I, for one, wouldn't support such a rule change BS.

It would have a negative impact on the IFA.

I just feel the IFA need to do things differently - within the rules as they stand, or else shut up when players switch.

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I know you wouldn't. But I was stressing this for GR.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

All five met the criterion of never having lived in the Irish Republic, which I raised merely to point out that all the other British and Irish teams rely on a large number of players from England. Given that they do, and that only one grandparent is needed to qualify, it's pretty clear that many players will do so in the way I described. It's nice how pleased Cox or McGeady's grandparents were. Do you really think there wouldn't have been similar enthusiasm- maybe even from the same individual relatives- if they'd played for Scotland or England instead?

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Oh dear, oh dear. You said many of these such players may have never even met the person who they have qualified through. Please name them? I've shown that a big part of why these players feel Irish is because their parents and grandparents are the most important people in their lives and impart this into their descendents.

That is a very poor hypothetical that you have posed. How would I know? Maybe yes, maybe no. All I do know is that Cox and McGeady grew up in the presence of their Irish relatives that made them connect with this aspect of their heritage.

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To repeat, I don't cling to anything: I support my local football team as I always have.

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You're being very obtuse. The IFA team is more 'local' for someone from Letterkenny for example, never mind the nationalists abiding in the province. The IFA support is largely unionist and by this virtue can be defined as clinging to their British heritage. Which as I said earlier, they are perfectly entitled to do so.

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Originally Posted by Irwin3

Oh dear, oh dear. You said many of these such players may have never even met the person who they have qualified through. Please name them?

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Don't be silly, Irwin. You know perfectly well that

a) players only need one grandparent to qualify through

b) many do qualify on just that basis

c) it's hardly unusual for children not to have met one of their grandparents, is it? So

d) my comment is thus likely to be true in many cases, while

e) I made clear above no offence nor wind-up was intended.

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I've shown that a big part of why these players feel Irish is because their parents and grandparents are the most important people in their lives and impart this into their descendents

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You've offered what are basically cliched pre-match interviews. They don't actually answer what I've said, unless you're suggesting that most or all of the English and Scottish players have spent most of their life up to debut dreaming of playing for Granny's team, while never considering the alternative England or Scotland. Or possibly even that you think those Irish abroad are more likely to be picked to play than a self-styled Englishman or Scot who only signs up when approached as an adult.

The first situation is unrealistic; the second's absurd.

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That is a very poor hypothetical that you have posed. How would I know? Maybe yes, maybe no. All I do know is that Cox and McGeady grew up in the presence of their Irish relatives that made them connect with this aspect of their heritage

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Right. You don't know much beyond a hypothetical of your own. Some footballers in one game support the same team as their granny, ergo most/all do. Er, no.

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You're being very obtuse. The IFA team is more 'local' for someone from Letterkenny for example, never mind the nationalists abiding in the province. The IFA support is largely unionist and by this virtue can be defined as clinging to their British heritage. Which as I said earlier, they are perfectly entitled to do so

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What are you on about? I use local only in the reasonable sense of where I come from, ie Northern Ireland. How far someone in another country happens to live from the stadium is irrelevant, even bizarre.

For the third time- who's obtuse now?- I'm not 'clinging' to anything by supporting my football team. No more than you or any other fan of the South is clinging to their non-British heritage. But, if you're comfortable with nationalist slogans rather than reasoned discussion, fine. You're perfectly entitled to do so.

I don't know what the likelihood is that people won't meet their grandparents. I'd say that if someone only had one Irish grandparent that they had never met then they might have a hard time identifying as Irish depending on the stance of their half-Irish parent who could be staunchly Irish for all we know. This all comes back to your comment that many of these such players may have never even met the person who they have qualified through. I don't think it's a common thing at all. You still haven't given an example.

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Originally Posted by Irwin3

I'd say that if someone only had one Irish grandparent that they had never met then they might have a hard time identifying as Irish

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They'd be eligible to play for the football team regardless, whether or not they'd put any effort into identifying as Irish, and whether or not they'd given playing for it a moment's thought before Trap/ Stan/ Mick/ whoever came calling. And if they justified their place on the field, wouldn't they be broadly welcomed?

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Originally Posted by Gather round

They'd be eligible to play for the football team regardless, whether or not they'd put any effort into identifying as Irish, and whether or not they'd given playing for it a moment's thought before Trap/ Stan/ Mick/ whoever came calling. And if they justified their place on the field, wouldn't they be broadly welcomed?

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Ok great. As you've now delved further into pure hypotheticals then you must agree that it's not exactly common and that your initial statement was a load of nonsense.

Edit: To indulge your question (which is changing the subject somewhat), my answer would be that they would of course be welcomed as presumably they'd have sought out the FAI with a desire to represent Ireland.

I'm sorry GR. What's the point of this discussion again? To establish that someone with one grandparent of a different nationality might not feel a genuine affinity with that country? What an exercise in futility. That possibility is equally applicable to Northern Ireland or bloody Jamaica as it is to Ireland. And there are far worse cases of mercenaryship (great new word) out there namely any circumstance related to Qatari residency....

By the way, Clinton Morrison is the only player I recall in recent memory that the above can be reasonably argued about. I don't include Butler as that was through marriage iirc...

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Originally Posted by Irwin3

Ok great. As you've now delved further into pure hypotheticals then you must agree that it's not exactly common and that your initial statement was a load of nonsense

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Er, I haven't. The only 'hypothetical' is that your football team will pick players eligible for it, ie not a hypothetical at all but a statement of the obvious.

Whereas you seem unwilling or unable to grasp that some of those dual or multi-qualified players are likely to be less single-minded than others, or less instantly recognisable as Irish. But as we've agreed, you're perfectly entitled you think on those lines.

@ Stu: my point is merely to answer others' points. If you think it futile, ignore it. As a brief summary, Bonnie, Irwin and Ole are broadly suggesting that there's a significant difference between one team's recruiting outside players and another's. I'm countering that there isn't.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Er, I haven't. The only 'hypothetical' is that your football team will pick players eligible for it, ie not a hypothetical at all but a statement of the obvious.

Whereas you seem unwilling or unable to grasp that some of those dual or multi-qualified players are likely to be less single-minded than others, or less instantly recognisable as Irish. But as we've agreed, you're perfectly entitled you think on those lines.

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I have said nothing of the sort. You are now putting words into my mouth. If, for example Cox feels more English than Irish and dreamt as a teenager of playing for England then good for him. This whole discussion stems from you saying that we have many players who haven't even met the person whom they qualify through. Which is a load of rubbish. If it has happened then it is a very rare occurrence indeed.

P.S. Look up the meaning of hypothetical.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

@ Stu: my point is merely to answer others' points. If you think it futile, ignore it. As a brief summary, Bonnie, Irwin and Ole are broadly suggesting that there's a significant difference between one team's recruiting outside players and another's. I'm countering that there isn't.

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I haven't even really made an explicit comment on this yet. I'm guessing that the point that others have been making is that simply due to the vast numbers of emigrants and the Irish communities that formed in Britain, that:
1) There are a lot of 2nd and 3rd generation Irish in Britain
2) A lot of these have Irish born parents
3) A lot will have more than one Irish grandparent

Some of these would choose Ireland as their first and only choice.

Now due to the Irish communities in a lot of the major British cities, someone say with one Irish grandparent, even if they felt more English, would possibly have a greater affinity for Ireland say that an equivalent person with one Scottish grandparent might not have with Scotland due to the absence of such an environment. Of course these are generalities and there is nothing unique to Ireland, however due to the reality of the situation and the numbers involved, Ireland differs from say Scotland and Wales in this respect.

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Originally Posted by Irwin3

I have said nothing of the sort. You are now putting words into my mouth. If, for example Cox feels more English than Irish and dreamt as a teenager of playing for England then good for him. This whole discussion stems from you saying that we have many players who haven't even met the person whom they qualify through. Which is a load of rubbish. If it has happened then it is a very rare occurrence indeed.

P.S. Look up the meaning of hypothetical.

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Irwin, you have entered into a debate with a poster whose background deems it impossible for him to logically deal with the slow demise of his team and the implications of the CAS ruling. You have made logical points that are completely valid and correct and are impossible for him to stomach.

Heady stuff Gastric! :cool:
I like it, you always go out and say what you feel. :smiley_simmons:

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Originally Posted by gastric

Irwin, you have entered into a debate with a poster whose background deems it impossible for him to logically deal with the slow demise of his team and the implications of the CAS ruling. You have made logical points that are completely valid and correct and are impossible for him to stomach.

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I think you're a bit wide of the mark there Dude...weakened possibly, but very much alive.

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Originally Posted by Irwin3

I have said nothing of the sort. You are now putting words into my mouth...This whole discussion stems from you saying that we have many players who haven't even met the person whom they qualify through. Which is a load of rubbish. If it has happened then it is a very rare occurrence indeed

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Strictly, I said that they MAY not have met. Taking words out of others' mouths eh?

You've no more idea than I do exactly how many of these family groups have actually met, and you've ignored my step-by-step logical explanation why they may not have.

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I'm guessing that the point that others have been making is that simply due to the vast numbers of emigrants and the Irish communities that formed in Britain, that:

1) There are a lot of 2nd and 3rd generation Irish in Britain
2) A lot of these have Irish born parents
3) A lot will have more than one Irish grandparent

Some of these would choose Ireland as their first and only choice.

Now due to the Irish communities in a lot of the major British cities, someone say with one Irish grandparent, even if they felt more English, would possibly have a greater affinity for Ireland say that an equivalent person with one Scottish grandparent might not have with Scotland due to the absence of such an environment. Of course these are generalities and there is nothing unique to Ireland, however due to the reality of the situation and the numbers involved, Ireland differs from say Scotland and Wales in this respect

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I'm quite willing to accept that there are differences both historically and more recently. Between (self-identifying) Irish emigrants and Scottish, Welsh and Ulster migrants (like me). And between diasporas, one of which is often-mentioned, the other three barely at all. At the individual level, I realise some players would have a first and only choice as you mention: nothing I've said above contradicts that.

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Originally Posted by Gastric

Irwin, you have entered into a debate with a poster whose background deems it impossible for him to logically deal with the slow demise of his team and the implications of the CAS ruling. You have made logical points that are completely valid and correct and are impossible for him to stomach

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Ha ha. Always good to hear from our resident Aussie comic. As you seem to have just got back from a liquid lunch I'll keep this simple. My background beyond what I write here is irrelevant, even if some random poster knew what it was. I've dealt logically with Irwin's points, as I do yours. As you've obviously forgotten I said repeatedly on this thread and its predecessors that

a) I accepted some players from NI choosing to play for the South

b) going to CAS was pointless, a waste of money and vindictive (all pointed out before it happened)

c) I'm comfortable with daydreaming Irish Nationalists predicting the end of NI and its football team. They've been doing it for nearly 90 years, why stop now?

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Strictly, I said that they MAY not have met. Taking words out of others' mouths eh?

You've no more idea than I do exactly how many of these family groups have actually met, and you've ignored my step-by-step logical explanation why they may not have.


I'm quite willing to accept that there are differences both historically and more recently. Between (self-identifying) Irish emigrants and Scottish, Welsh and Ulster migrants (like me). And between diasporas, one of which is often-mentioned, the other three barely at all. At the individual level, I realise some players would have a first and only choice as you mention: nothing I've said above contradicts that.



Ha ha. Always good to hear from our resident Aussie comic. As you seem to have just got back from a liquid lunch I'll keep this simple. My background beyond what I write here is irrelevant, even if some random poster knew what it was. I've dealt logically with Irwin's points, as I do yours. As you've obviously forgotten I said repeatedly on this thread and its predecessors that

a) I accepted some players from NI choosing to play for the South

b) going to CAS was pointless, a waste of money and vindictive (all pointed out before it happened)

c) I'm comfortable with daydreaming Irish Nationalists predicting the end of NI and its football team. They've been doing it for nearly 90 years, why stop now?

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Thanks for the compliment, I do see myself as being quite funny! I also see myself as an Ireland football fan, but typical of you to politicize the feelings of many on here and have to refer to us as Irish nationalists. In terms of daydreaming, I dream of us qualifying for the WC next year and possibly making the trip. Believe me, daydreaming about your fortunes does not occupy any of the little spare time I have.

What I do find funny is how delusional and ridiculous your present arguments are. You have made rash statements and now you refer to pedantics to try and justify your comments. At least have the testicular fortitude to accept that your statement about the background of recent Irish players is completely wrong.