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I've nothing meaningful to add to this post, much like 269 odd pages of this thread, but that bugs me.Quote:
To quote yourself
I think Osarusan is a champion of the "downtrodden". He always seems to pick off trivial sub-arguments or detract from the main argument, in the pursuit of taking the non-populous view.
Agreed. Hence my regret for making that second post. Dang.
When the key issue is the idea theat the IFA are guilty of hypocrisy by taking players like Alex Bruce, arguing that I don't think that makes them guilty of hypocrisy is hardly a trivial sub-argument, is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I've already asked you to highlight the parts of that post which are still valid after you realised I wasn't blaming the FAI for anything. You've chosen not to.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
I've chosen to enjoy the sun.
Fair enough, enjoy.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Any comments on my attempt to explain my bizarre position:
Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
I'll comment tomorrow when I'm in a less cider compromised position if you don't mind. Peace out!
I think the only explanation is that you're a northern Irish Protestant masquerading as an Ireland and Limerick fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Mods, ban this imposter.
I personally don't find your point of view bizarre, just compassionate and there is no problem with such an opinion. Just on that, does anyone on here really want to see NI reduced to a level where it might be deemed a Luxembourg or lower in terms of competitiveness? I ask this because we are acquiring many of their best talent, and where I just wonder they are going to end up long term?Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Ha ha. Keep him and all his fellow self-righteous begrudgers, if only for the 'comedy' value...
They're pretty lowly as it is, but I don't really concern myself with their fortunes. Not that I wish them any misfortune either, for that matter. Indifference would best describe any feelings I have towards them.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
Who said dual national players were theirs? And "many"? The quantity of players deciding to make the switch between the IFA and the FAI amounts more to a trickle than a tidal wave. This thread hasn't seen such life as it's witnessed of late in a good while. Don't believe the hype. Likewise, the majority of the promising talents currently playing in their youth set-ups will remain with the IFA. Shane Ferguson decided he'd be best served by sticking with the IFA, for example. Most of their other talents won't even remotely or seriously consider a switch.Quote:
I ask this because we are acquiring many of their best talent, and where I just wonder where long term they are going to end up?
Danny, I feel you are being a little pedantic. I was using the word 'theirs' in relation to players who have represented them at some level, just as I would have referred to say Jack Grealish as being 'ours.'
If we were losing players to say England who might help our cause, I would probably feel angry and frustrated too that is why I referred to compassion in the above post. At the same time, I welcome all who play for us, and as I mentioned previously, Ryan McLaughlin would be a great addition to our squad. I suppose compassion is an emotional response, while happily accepting any player who plays for us is an acceptance of the reality of the situation.
I know you didn't use it with malicious intent or to stir the pot, but I think it's important not to fall into a casual habit or mindset of seeing dual nationals in terms of being theirs, as if these players have some lesser right to play for us or as if we have some lesser right to facilitate their wishes.
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The FAI are as entitled as the IFA to select eligible players, irrespective of whether the players concerned have represented the IFA at some level or not.
This is the nub of the argument of what I was saying yesterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I can see how someone might perceive it to be unfair (osarusan, gastric) on the basis of us "taking" players that once played for their teams. And on the face of it it may appear that way. But you also have to consider that a lot of the active posters in this thread, namely myself, Danny, geysir, ifk and Sullivinho strictly adhere to the idea that a dual national is eligible regardless of the staus of them playing for underage teams etc.
We must accept that for one reason or another, and I would definitely put geography in the mix, that a player may have initially have chosen to play for an IFA team at a young age out of expediency but their intent would be if they were ever good enough that they would wish to play for the FAI. I don't think that you can class these kids as being devious or malicious, just a cold hard fact that playing for the NISFA or training for local clubs in FATDAD mean it is likely that they would be picked up by the IFA first before the FAI even knew they existed.
I think an important point is that it's far more likely to represent the association nearest to you in your teens, especially when you know it's not a binding decision.
If I was the nationalist parent of a talented kid I'd be slow to allow him to represent the IFA at any level if I felt it 'd rule him or her out of ever representing the FAI. The IFA is possibly better off having FAI "inclined" players play for them and have some chance they'll stick, rather than cut them off altogether.
I don't wholly support the argument that its cutting off an opportunity for another IFA player. The track record of underage teams feeding the senior teams is relatively poor I'd say. Or rather the attrition rate of under age players is fairly high.
Of course one can sympathise with the IFA but they, more than anyone, should recognise that nothing is straightforward when it comes to national identity in Northern Ireland. If they ( a broad "they" including hangers on and media) stopped spouting inaccurate nonsense then I'd have more sympathy, but I don't.
Bonnie, I dont think it is unfair (rules are rules and I fully accept them), more I feel O'Neill is doing his utmost to try and build a team and it must be absolutely frustrating to lose players who could be potentially good. I felt his comments about catching up with McAlinden (I think it was) to talk about the future, something he intimated Trap wouldn't do, is true and shows his commitment to his job. If this was happening to us, I would feel aggrieved that is why I mentioned the word compassion. In no way, do I feel any sympathy for those NI supporters who try to politicize and use football for sectarian purposes, but I am sure there are many supporters who see it primarily as a sport, and for them, it must be very frustrating also.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Bingo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Say Stutts, that one of your children harboured an ambition to play for Ireland but the fact that they lived in London meant that they were unlikely to get involved with an FAI team for a while I'm sure you would see the pragmatism of them being involved with the FA's youth set-up.Quote:
If I was the nationalist parent of a talented kid I'd be slow to allow him to represent the IFA at any level if I felt it 'd rule him or her out of ever representing the FAI. The IFA is possibly better off having FAI "inclined" players play for them and have some chance they'll stick, rather than cut them off altogether.
I wouldn't think that when they declared for the FAI at a later date that they were stringing the FA along or believe it to be unfair. Not that I would ever think that such a scenario would be allowed happen in your house! :)
Exactly how I feel about anything to do with the IFA. The simplistic notions that you should play for the team where you were born or the team you played underage football with fails to take into consideration all the complex feelings and ideas behind nationality.
Again I agree. This is a fallacy. An argument concoted by the bands of OWC heads to justify a reason for not calling up a talented Nationalist. Any players good enough will get into the team. Provided they are spotted. James McClean's presence in an undrage squad didn't limit the chances of another player that was good enough. James just happened to be better than anyone in that position at the time.Quote:
I don't wholly support the argument that its cutting off an opportunity for another IFA player. The track record of underage teams feeding the senior teams is relatively poor I'd say. Or rather the attrition rate of under age players is fairly high.
I wouldn't sympathise with them tbh. When I was younger I had more of an affinity with the IFA team. Not now. Their antics over the years culminating in the Kearns case shows that they are worthy of nothing more than ambivilance.Quote:
Of course one can sympathise with the IFA but they, more than anyone, should recognise that nothing is straightforward when it comes to national identity in Northern Ireland. If they ( a broad "they" including hangers on and media) stopped spouting inaccurate nonsense then I'd have more sympathy, but I don't.
If O'Neill is doing his utmost then so be it. But constantly referring to the FAI and Trap for making his job harder or the fact that they wouldn't care as much strikes me as him looking for blame.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
It's the same tired mantra employed by the former EPN.
I think Trap is more than happy to reassure players of his plans for them, so not sure why O'Neill has this idea in his head that Trap wouldn't be prepared to do what he does. Remember James McCarthy prior to the Euros? Thing is, O'Neill appears to be leveling a mild criticism at Trap whilst bigging himself up, but you can be sure he'd be even more critical if Trap was found to be sounding out youth internationals in the IFA's set-up and trying to convince them to switch to the FAI by telling them about what great plans he had for them; no-win for Trap.
Again, my sympathy (I wouldn't go so far as to call it compassion) isn't because of 'us' taking their players. It's if and when a player continues to be involved with underage training after he's made his mind up, but hasn't let the IFA know. Obviously not all players do this, but I'd say it's naive to think that none do. No blame is attached to the FAI, who, by agreeing to wait to be contacted, are clearly showing a willingness to compromise.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
I think that the IFA are in a position where, as Danny mentioned, some percentage of their underage players have, to varying degrees probably, dreams/ambitions of playing for the ROI if they give the chance. And, as both Danny and Stuttgart pointed out, it's not really a course of action for them to weed them out either - they'd prefer them to stay and take their chances that the player will, for whatever reason, stay with the IFA. That is a very frustrating position in which to be.
And, like Stuttgart, my sympathy would be stronger if the IFA and/or hangers on didn't talk sh!te at seemingly every available opportunity.
Until they play for us nothing "unfair" has happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
What would you say about a young nationalist, like say Niall McGinn who obviously harbours an ambition to play with the FAI but who perceived himself that he wasn't good enough and decided to stick with the IFA? He's partaking in such skullduggery. If he mentioned that he wishes to play forthe FAI and stood out of IFA squads on that basis he would be depriving himself of intl football and the IFA of a decent footballer.
Excellent point, well made.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
I imagine many of your fans- like almost all of Luxembourg, Azerbaijan or Portugal's- want us to be less competitive, if not to the point of the games being a complete waste of time. We're all rivals in the same two competitions after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
Only many in your case though, because obviously plenty others of your fans want the NI team to be abolished. Whether as bored sh*t-stirrers, daydreaming Shinners or just numbskulls who think that merging a mediocre team with a bad one will make the new entity a potential World-beater almost by definition.
Long term, I worry that international football will become even more of a poor relation to the club game than at present. That will hurt NI as a small country even before you consider limited players, poor coaching or halfwitted media pundits. On the other hand, if we can limp ahead of Lux and Azer into fourth place, that will actually be an improvement on Euro 12 qualifying. Onwards and upwards, potentially.
As you say, that's the nub of the argument. We're looking at different perceived unfairnesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonnie Shels
D- on the literary reference btw.
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