Eligibility Rules, Okay

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10/08/2011, 2:03 AM
DannyInvincible

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

McDonnell gets in on the GFA act for the Indo.

Just got round to reading this properly and pretty much agree with the sentiments above. I'm extremely surprised that McDonnell seems to possess such a warped understanding of the eligibility rules. Surely he has at least read the wording of article 15 (now article 5), never mind the other three eligibility articles and the Kearns judgment. He's always impressed me with his adeptness for research and detail, but I don't know what happened here.

Is he correct about a gentleman's agreement having been in place whereby players had to remain with the IFA until at least the age of 17? I'd never heard that before. Surely that's not right, but it seems very specific for something he'd have just plucked out of his imagination, if you know what I mean. I still don't see how it could be right though. What age was Gibson when he declared for us? And Paul George? And didn't Ger Crossley appear for our under-16s a decade and a half ago?

Just another thing; no-one at the FAI has ever said that Alex Bruce is or was "surplus to requirements", never mind Trapattoni. People can assume that all they wish, but who's to say he wouldn't have come in handy were we to suffer some future injury crisis in defence or whatever? Who knows when we'd require him? NI fans seem to argue that switching in the direction of the IFA is somehow different to those who switch the other way because the players from whom they generally tend to benefit have been deemed "surplus to requirements" by their original associations, but it is no different in principle or theory. I mean, there's no way of actually judging whether or not a player is surplus to requirements or not unless an association actually comes out and says something on the matter. It's not all that likely in reality, sure, but who can say with any certainty that Bruce won't experience some late-career flourish? Who ever said that Johnny Gorman, for example, was surplus to requirements at the FAI? I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be allowed to switch to the IFA if that's what they want to do, but just highlighting what I perceive to be hypocrisy in the opposing argument.
10/08/2011, 2:18 AM
Charlie Darwin

McDonnell is one of the journalists who engages properly with people on Twitter so I'm sure he'd be interested if you linked him to your piece. Miguel Delaney from the Examiner posted a link to it on his today so he may have already read it.
10/08/2011, 2:41 AM
DannyInvincible

Never really bothered with Twitter, but I might just have to get round to it.

Also, just noticing the James McClean thread was binned. Could the general eligibility discussion not just have been thrown into this thread?
10/08/2011, 4:13 AM
The Fly

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

He's always impressed me with his adeptness for research and detail, but I don't know what happened here.

Perhaps he joined OWC and conducted his research there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Is he correct about a gentleman's agreement having been in place whereby players had to remain with the IFA until at least the age of 17? I'd never heard that before. Surely that's not right, but it seems very specific for something he'd have just plucked out of his imagination, if you know what I mean. I still don't see how it could be right though.

Ahh.....the old chestnut about a gentleman's agreement between the FAI and IFA.

Can anyone verify its existence once and for all, or must it now be declared an urban legend?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Just another thing; no-one at the FAI has ever said that Alex Bruce is or was "surplus to requirements", never mind Trapattoni. People can assume that all they wish, but who's to say he wouldn't have come in handy were we to suffer some future injury crisis in defence or whatever? Who knows when we'd require him?

What we can say is that we would need to be in real dire straits for Alex Bruce to come in handy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

NI fans seem to argue that switching in the direction of the IFA is somehow different to those who switch the other way because the players from whom they generally tend to benefit have been deemed "surplus to requirements" by their original associations, but it is no different in principle or theory.

I think that the GAWA's collective antipathy towards Alex Bruce's newfound willingness to represent Northern Ireland is twofold.

Firstly, the comments he made (below) regarding his initial decision to represent the Republic of Ireland over Northern Ireland...

"I had the choice of both the Republic and Northern Ireland, but to be honest I didn't even know I qualified for the North until they called me up. But I'd very fond memories of USA 94 and the supporters, so when opportunity arose to play for the Republic, it was a very easy decision to make.

"It was a great feeling making my debut for my country, one I'll never forget."

‎"But I think I'm going to pick the Republic purely because I think they are a better team. That's no disrespect to Northern Ireland."

...left supporters with the impression of being sloppy seconds, or, in this case, tacky thirds - as it's safe to assume that England would have been his first preference.

Secondly, and of equal significance, is the notion that accepting Alex Bruce into the Northern Ireland setup would result in the complete undermining of their supposed moral highground; leaving the IFA open to accusations of hypocrisy, thus removing any remaining vestige of credibility they had over the whole 'poaching' issue, and so on so forth........http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/pub...fault/lazy.gif

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

It's not all that likely in reality, sure, but who can say with any certainty that Bruce won't experience some late-career flourish?

Let me be the first to stick my head above the parapet and declare with great degree of certainty that that won't happen.
10/08/2011, 8:47 AM
Not Brazil

Good comments from Steve Davis and Gareth McAuley.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...-16034160.html

"If someone has to think about playing for Northern Ireland then we aren't interested (in them)"
10/08/2011, 9:12 AM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"If someone has to think about playing for Northern Ireland then we aren't interested (in them)"

Is that a dig at a significant proportion of the current NI squad?
10/08/2011, 9:15 AM
SwanVsDalton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

McDonnell is one of the journalists who engages properly with people on Twitter so I'm sure he'd be interested if you linked him to your piece. Miguel Delaney from the Examiner posted a link to it on his today so he may have already read it.

I tweeted O'Donnell about it, saying the article overplays the GFA issue etc. Got no response.

Funny enough on Twitter last night there was a row between Delaney, Ciar�n � Raghallaigh and Scott Dougal, a deputy sports editor for Press Association, had a barney last night (and continuing this morning). Dougal is on a bit of a wind-up, but Delaney and � Raghallaigh have very effectively shut him down. Good to see a couple of journos know their stuff.

Moreover just noticed East Terracer linked Danny's piece to Delaney. His response: '@EastTerracer Christ, that is impressive'.
10/08/2011, 9:15 AM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

Is that a dig at a significant proportion of the current NI squad?

Like who specifically?
10/08/2011, 9:20 AM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Like who specifically?

Let's start off in the goalkeeper position.
10/08/2011, 9:28 AM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

Let's start off in the goalkeeper position.

All members of the current Senior squad have committed to Northern Ireland - none of them are there under duress. None of them feel they are doing the IFA a favour. None of them strung the IFA along.
10/08/2011, 9:33 AM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

All members of the current Senior squad have committed to Northern Ireland - none of them are there under duress. None of them feel they are doing the IFA a favour. None of them strung the IFA along.

So Paddy Canadian, Paddy English and Paddy German didn't need to "think" about playing for NI?
10/08/2011, 9:41 AM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

So Paddy Canadian, Paddy English and Paddy German didn't need to "think" about playing for NI?

Perhaps Gareth was talking primarily about Paddy Northern Irish?

Whatever - his sentiments hit the note.

If a player thinks he can dick the IFA about, he's surplus to requirements.
10/08/2011, 11:18 AM
bohsRap

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Perhaps Gareth was talking primarily about Paddy Northern Irish?

Whatever - his sentiments hit the note.

If a player thinks he can dick the IFA about, he's surplus to requirements.

He didn't say just that though did he? From your previous post, he said:

Quote:

If someone has to think about playing for Northern Ireland then we aren't interested (in them)

As pointed out to you above, I'm sure there's players on your team who did have to think twice about playing.
10/08/2011, 11:20 AM
SwanVsDalton

Not sure what this about, but the Shinners are weighing, in according to Twitter.

BBCGarethG Gareth Gordon
Barry McElduff brands former ROI manager Brian Kerr a disgrace for saying he hadn't made it easy for NI-born players to switch sides.

Don't even know what Kerr's supposed to have said...
10/08/2011, 11:24 AM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by bohsRap

As pointed out to you above, I'm sure there's players on your team who did have to think twice about playing.

Like who? Lee Camp?

I can't think of anyone in our Senior squad, born in Northern Ireland, who had to think twice about it.

I can certainly think of players who had to think twice about playing for the South - or maybe three times.
10/08/2011, 11:27 AM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Not sure what this about, but the Shinners are weighing, in according to Twitter.

BBCGarethG Gareth Gordon
Barry McElduff brands former ROI manager Brian Kerr a disgrace for saying he hadn't made it easy for NI-born players to switch sides.

Don't even know what Kerr's supposed to have said...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14466118.stm

Maybe the Shinner attending tonight's match might have a bad hair day in protest?

Kerr maybe has an eye on the job.:)
10/08/2011, 11:29 AM
bohsRap

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Like who? Lee Camp?

I can't think of anyone in our Senior squad, born in Northern Ireland, who had to think twice about it.

I can certainly think of players who had to think twice about playing for the South - or maybe three times.

Ok, in the context of players born in the north, that's different (apart from McGinn perhaps). Your initial quote didn't reference that at all. For players born outside of Ireland, as we all know, I'm sure there's players who play for both of us that have had to think twice about doing so.
10/08/2011, 11:43 AM
SwanVsDalton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14466118.stm

Maybe the Shinner attending tonight's match might have a bad hair day in protest?

Kerr maybe has an eye on the job.:)

Same as he said in the Irish Times a few months ago I think. McElduff should stay out, the last thing anyone wants is this going Stormont. And you're bang on - Kerr's fishing.
10/08/2011, 11:51 AM
Lionel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Same as he said in the Irish Times a few months ago I think. McElduff should stay out, the last thing anyone wants is this going Stormont. And you're bang on - Kerr's fishing.

Mostly agreed -though since the Faroes drew us in the WC qualifiers I'd say he's keen on sticking around to try and hit the bullseye and make the rest of the dominoes fall like a house of cards. checkmate.
10/08/2011, 12:12 PM
Drumcondra 69er

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Never really bothered with Twitter, but I might just have to get round to it.

Also, just noticing the James McClean thread was binned. Could the general eligibility discussion not just have been thrown into this thread?

Degenirated into mud slinging and general WUMerry from Not Brazil. Should be cleaned up and left in place as his dedicated players thread though.
10/08/2011, 12:15 PM
Drumcondra 69er

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Same as he said in the Irish Times a few months ago I think. McElduff should stay out, the last thing anyone wants is this going Stormont. And you're bang on - Kerr's fishing.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-n...a-2844032.html

Staggering hypocrisy from Kerr given that, as far as I recall, it was under his under age tenure that Nothern players such as Crossley started declaring in earnest....
10/08/2011, 12:33 PM
Lionel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-n...a-2844032.html

Staggering hypocrisy from Kerr given that, as far as I recall, it was under his under age tenure that Nothern players such as Crossley started declaring in earnest....

I've a lot of time for Kerr but he can be very inconsistent in his arguements.
Also I believe I'm correct in saying that the broad belief among NI supporters that the FAI are actively poaching/canvassing/sounding out players, who've hitherto played for the IFA but aren't yet tied, is based on an unsolicitied approach to Chris Baird from one Brian Kerr way back 2003 direction. Baird himself is apparently the source of this information.
10/08/2011, 12:44 PM
The Fly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Degenirated into mud slinging and general WUMerry from Not Brazil. Should be cleaned up and left in place as his dedicated players thread though.

That's a misrepresentation of NB's contribution.
10/08/2011, 1:16 PM
Irwin3

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Is he correct about a gentleman's agreement having been in place whereby players had to remain with the IFA until at least the age of 17? I'd never heard that before. Surely that's not right, but it seems very specific for something he'd have just plucked out of his imagination, if you know what I mean. I still don't see how it could be right though. What age was Gibson when he declared for us? And Paul George? And didn't Ger Crossley appear for our under-16s a decade and a half ago?

UEFA give Darron's UEFA Competition debut for our Under 17's on 21/10/03 against Austria. He was still 15 at the time.
10/08/2011, 1:23 PM
geysir

The recruitment of Gerry Armstrong is a good move, it's proactive - in contrast to the negative, small minded, under-seige, mindset of the OWC and their cohorts, in their attitude to the young Irish players born in the North.
10/08/2011, 1:52 PM
TrapAPony

Nigel Worthington 'respects' James McClean decision
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjSCV...eature=related
10/08/2011, 2:39 PM
SwanVsDalton

McElduff's response confirmed. Kerr be a 'disgrace'.

I would really rather not have politicians butting in on this, and I can easily imagine a DUPper getting in on this on behalf of the NI supporters and it escalating beyond any sense of perspective. BUT...McElduff's right and Kerr comes across as downright disingenuous. I don't know about him 'not' making it easy for players, or whatever, but he certainly took advantage of eligibility where possible if the player was good enough.

This in particular sticks in the craw:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Kerr

"I inherited one or two and one or two came after that but we didn't make it easy for them.

"We did, in fact, tell some players that they would be better off not playing for us because they were unlikely to get to the top level."

I think both NI and ROI supporters can agree that you've totally missed the point there Brian. It's not about footballing ability - it's about choosing to play for your country, with the inherent risk you may miss out on international football altogether. These guys would rather play for ROI - their country - or not play at all. Better all round. You silly WUM.
10/08/2011, 8:39 PM
ArdeeBhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I can't think of anyone in our Senior squad, born in Northern Ireland, who had to think twice about it.

I can certainly think of players who had to think twice about playing for the South - or maybe three times.

McGinn and McCourt for starters, despite the latter's goals v. the Faroes.
As that recent photo showed, Chris Baird's not too keen on the pro-German dirge.

And Lee Camp obviously, as his international career started elsewhere.
Soon to be joined also by Alex Bruce....

Been told McCourt wanted to play for Ireland, but the door wasn't sufficiently open.

And 'South'? Korea??
:confused:
10/08/2011, 9:41 PM
BonnieShels

Seems that it was Stephen Kenny (as per his comments on OTB tonight) who brought McClean to the attention of the IFA after they had ignored him post-Milk Cup and McClean himself had no thoughts either way until he was called into the NI squad for tonight's game.
10/08/2011, 9:48 PM
ArdeeBhoy

Whatever the rights & wrongs, McClean should be afforded his own thread...
11/08/2011, 12:30 AM
SkStu

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Whatever the rights & wrongs, McClean should be afforded his own thread...

maybe when he makes his first appearance for Sunderland and we can talk about his game and not about his decision. Thats what this thread should be used for.
11/08/2011, 1:45 AM
ArdeeBhoy

Yes, of course, the history of his career is of no relevance...
11/08/2011, 2:52 AM
DannyInvincible

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkStu

maybe when he makes his first appearance for Sunderland and we can talk about his game and not about his decision. Thats what this thread should be used for.

His appearances for Derry don't count?
11/08/2011, 2:52 AM
DannyInvincible

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

McElduff's response confirmed. Kerr be a 'disgrace'.

I would really rather not have politicians butting in on this, and I can easily imagine a DUPper getting in on this on behalf of the NI supporters and it escalating beyond any sense of perspective. BUT...McElduff's right and Kerr comes across as downright disingenuous. I don't know about him 'not' making it easy for players, or whatever, but he certainly took advantage of eligibility where possible if the player was good enough.

This in particular sticks in the craw:

I think both NI and ROI supporters can agree that you've totally missed the point there Brian. It's not about footballing ability - it's about choosing to play for your country, with the inherent risk you may miss out on international football altogether. These guys would rather play for ROI - their country - or not play at all. Better all round. You silly WUM.

At least McElduff is a bit closer to the mark than most who decide to have a say on the issue in the media under their purported expertise when he says the GFA "secured" the right. I suppose it did copper-fasten it in a way, although it's not as if the right wasn't there before hand or as if FIFA had ever disputed it, even after the IFA made an issue of it in 1994 to the FIFA Players' Status Committee in Zurich.

As for Kerr, I think these comments also betray a serious misunderstanding (strange for a man with a Belfast father?):

Quote:

"I know some of the northern players have an identity with the Republic because of the communities they're living in. I think, over time, that can change," he said.

It's disappointing to hear him talk of identities possibly changing or whatever when Irish nationals in the north are just as Irish as anyone born south of the border. Why should people adopt some new identity that is foreign to them when their current identity is just as valid as anyone else's? It's as if to accuse nationalists of possessing a false or temporary national identity and it's more akin to something you'd expect from a dyed-in-the-wool loyalist back in the 1970s, to be honest.

Quote:

"But I don't think the Republic should be taking advantage of the Belfast Agreement to the extent they're using it in football as a way of recruiting players."

Beyond the fact the FAI aren't actually taking advantage of the GFA, that's a daft comment insofar as every other association in the world similarly uses the scope of their country's nationality laws to their advantage and in line with the rules.

I think Kerr is vying for Worthington's job.
11/08/2011, 3:44 AM
SkStu

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Yes, of course, the history of his career is of no relevance...

nice try but you know thats not what i meant. You werent discussing the history of his career in the thread that you all caused to be binned. It wouldnt have been binned if you had been talking about his career.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

His appearances for Derry don't count?

not in this forum they dont. Never seen his appearances for Derry mentioned in this forum before. You? EL players dont typically get a thread here until they move.
11/08/2011, 4:45 AM
Sullivinho

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I think Kerr is vying for Worthington's job.

Getting dumped by Miss Ireland must do strange things to a man. Y'hear stories about her occasionally, your ex. How she got into an awful state with her new guy 'Steve' over in Cyprus. The road accident in San Marino - the two old ladies who died. He makes her call him 'the gaffer'. It makes your blood boil. You were her gaffer once. You know he's a bad influence on her but it don't change the fact she's moved on. Last you heard she'd hooked up with some wealthy old Italian dude. Two guys in a row with exotic accents...you feel inadequate. Someone mentions that he watches DVDs of them together. That dirty b@stard you think to yourself, as the boats pull into T�rshavn. She's not taking as many beatings these days but hell, that's small consolation.

And then you happen to run into her plump, illegitimate cousin. She's got identity and abandonment issues. Some say she's trouble.

But you think hmmm...

I'd hit that.
11/08/2011, 5:01 AM
DannyInvincible

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkStu

EL players dont typically get a thread here until they move.

http://foot.ie/threads/102730-Keith-Fahey?
http://foot.ie/threads/13833-Jason-Byrne?
http://foot.ie/threads/47151-Roy-O-Donovan?
http://foot.ie/threads/58807-Wes-Hoolahan?
http://foot.ie/threads/53756-Emelka-Onwubiko?

In fact, that thread for Onwubiko features 13 pages (i.e. the entire thread) discussing pretty much anything but Onwubiko, never mind his football; from nationalised citizens playing for us to multiculturalism to "plastic paddies" to the nature of Irishness itself...

And you should be well aware of these two yourself:

http://foot.ie/threads/124093-Conor-Powell?
http://foot.ie/threads/121274-Brian-Murphy?

Quote:

not in this forum they dont. Never seen his appearances for Derry mentioned in this forum before. You?

That's because McClean only ever mentioned that we were in his plans three days ago; the day the thread was started. Prior to that, there had been no indication in the slightest - be it rumour, paper-talk or something from the player himself - that he'd even been considering switching. Actually, it would have been fair to assume otherwise as he was playing with NI at under-age level, seemed to express disappointment in the Derry Journal that he'd been ignored by Worthington for their senior set-up about a month or two ago and was then called up to their squad the other day. In light of that, it never appeared there was any need to discuss him or his appearances for Derry as it didn't seem like he'd ever be an option for us, but I think his appearances are entirely relevant now he's expressed his intentions to play for us, even if he was still with Derry such was his profile in the league. Anyway, he's an Irish player at a Premiership club now; of course his thread should never have been binned.
11/08/2011, 5:03 AM
DannyInvincible

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sullivinho

Getting dumped by Miss Ireland must do strange things to a man. Y'hear stories about her occasionally, your ex. How she got into an awful state with her new guy 'Steve' over in Cyprus. The road accident in San Marino - the two old ladies who died. He makes her call him 'the gaffer'. It makes your blood boil. You were her gaffer once. You know he's a bad influence on her but it don't change the fact she's moved on. Last you heard she'd hooked up with some wealthy old Italian dude. Two guys in a row with exotic accents...you feel inadequate. Someone mentions that he watches DVDs of them together. That dirty b@stard you think to yourself, as the boats pull into T�rshavn. She's not taking as many beatings these days but hell, that's small consolation.

And then you happen to run into her plump, illegitimate cousin. She's got identity and abandonment issues. Some say she's trouble.

But you think hmmm...

I'd hit that.

I think you've just won the thread.
11/08/2011, 5:21 AM
SkStu

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

http://foot.ie/threads/102730-Keith-Fahey?
http://foot.ie/threads/13833-Jason-Byrne?
http://foot.ie/threads/47151-Roy-O-Donovan?
http://foot.ie/threads/58807-Wes-Hoolahan?
http://foot.ie/threads/53756-Emelka-Onwubiko?

In fact, that thread for Onwubiko features 13 pages (i.e. the entire thread) discussing pretty much anything but Onwubiko, never mind his football; from nationalised citizens playing for us to multiculturalism to "plastic paddies" to the nature of Irishness itself...

And you should be well aware of these two yourself:

http://foot.ie/threads/124093-Conor-Powell?
http://foot.ie/threads/121274-Brian-Murphy?.

7 players in the history of the EL. Im taking you at face value that these were started before they moved to England.

Thank you for proving my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

That's because McClean only ever mentioned that we were in his plans three days ago; the day the thread was started. Prior to that, there had been no indication in the slightest - be it rumour, paper-talk or something from the player himself - that he'd even been considering switching. Actually, it would have been fair to assume otherwise as he was playing with NI at under-age level, seemed to express disappointment in the Derry Journal that he'd been ignored by Worthington for their senior set-up about a month or two ago and was then called up to their squad the other day. In light of that, it never appeared there was any need to discuss him or his appearances for Derry as it didn't seem like he'd ever be an option for us, but I think his appearances are entirely relevant now he's expressed his intentions to play for us, even if he was still with Derry such was his profile in the league. Anyway, he's an Irish player at a Premiership club now; of course his thread should never have been binned.

heres the thing Danny. Very few in that thread were discussing McClean let alone specific appearances for Derry. I counted two, maybe three, general critiques of the player. By the time the 1st page of the thread had ended it had already been taken over by the usual suspects AGAIN rehashing the same old arguments AGAIN. I agree he should have his own thread now, of course I do, but it shouldnt be another thread about eligibility which it had become - take a read of it again if you dont believe me, its actually quite an absurd thread. Any McClean thread should be about his future performances (and past performances too if you insist).
11/08/2011, 5:32 AM
DannyInvincible

They were just a few I found off the top of my head whose threads were started whilst playing in the League of Ireland. I'm sure there are more. Anyway, I still think that eligibility talk could have been thrown in here, or just that binned alone if it was so bad. But his decision was always going to spark eligiblity-type discussion as it came as such a surprise. It was undeniably newsworthy.

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