Yes and?Quote:
Originally Posted by awec
Would that be the royal 'we'? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by awec
Printable View
Yes and?Quote:
Originally Posted by awec
Would that be the royal 'we'? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by awec
Ha Ha, that's why all those 'Irish' unionists carry round Brit.passports and obsess about how British they are.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
May a higher power help those on the mainland when they rock-up there.
Where is this 'South' then?? :confused:Quote:
There are plenty of dubious aspects about its application, and others worthy of debate, maybe elsewhere. Just to repeat a couple briefly- it looks odd that the Republic will happily offer citizenship to pretty much everyone in NI, but won't automatically do so for everyone born in the South.
Every political institution in the South has reuniting Ireland as a major theoretical objective, even if we all know you won't see them for dust if it ever becomes even a remote posibility in practice.
Perhaps the reluctance was due to a small country worrying about an influx of foreigners, which I wouldn't agree with personally, but perhaps there was reticence due to the issue of potentially accomodating a large no.of dysfunctional aliens with a fascination for bowler hats, red-white-and-blue flags and "walking the Queen's highway"....
:eek:
Hmm, Hypocrisy & amnesia (again) Alert! Lol.Quote:
Has FHTB banned you then? Just re-register. Ardee Bhoy will lend you one of his numerous aliases. Just remember to use the phrases 'paranoid planters' and 'medieval theme park' in every post and you'll be fine.
Once again, the PI (Paranoia Index) needs tweaking. Not to mention that of accuracy!!!
To answer the above.Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
Yes. You mentioned Irish plates.
The North's team is inclusive (What would be said if it was 11 Nats from W.Beal-feirste though?) if you believe the hype, but not sure the majority of fans are or ever will be....
And thus regardless of the shirt or badge GS, Nats.will tell you it's about the foreign anthem, flag(s), songs, ground location, name calling and a plethora of other reasons why they wouldn't want to be associated under the current arrangements.
Surely even you can grasp that we're both Irish and British? It kind of follows from part of Ireland having been part of Britain for centuries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardee Bhoy
Perhaps it was a populist stunt by the then Government to create an impression of toughness on immigration, with the predictable effect of leaving many Irish born children potentially stateless? Still, glad you agree it wasn't exactly progressive.Quote:
Perhaps the reluctance was due to a small country worrying about an influx of foreigners, which I wouldn't agree with personally
Er, perhaps not, given that the Republic is quite prepared to give any dysfunctional Orangeman (or me, or EG. or awec) a passport. One basically contradicts the other. The difference is really that offering notional benefits to millions of people in Northern Ireland doesn't actually cost anything, while providing equal citizenship for everyone born in Dublin does, or is perceived to.Quote:
but perhaps there was reticence due to the issue of potentially accomodating a large no.of dysfunctional aliens with a fascination for orange, red-white-and-blue flags and marching
Eight or nine guys from Andytown would probably get the same reaction as eight or nine English in your side used to get, ie gentle ridicule. Ditto 11 Prods from Rathcoole, although I think most people would see this as a one-off without wider consequence if it happened in one game. I'm still fairly sure that more nationalists from NI will play internationally for us rather than you in the future, for reasons already discussed on these threads.Quote:
The North's team is inclusive (What would be said if it was 11 Nats from W.Beal-feirste though?) if you believe the hype
Quote:
but not sure the majority of fans are or ever will be....
If you mean that most nationalists in NI will continue to support the South, I agree, that's fine.
I think Mr Parker's and GSpain's rather simpler explanations are more likely. They support the Republic of Ireland because they always have, and probably their ancestors did. They don't need to justify not supporting anyone else. Equally, if some of them follow your lead and constantly stir about flags, anthems and the Boucher Road contraflow system, don't be surprised if your crude bias gets answered.Quote:
And thus regardless of the shirt or badge GS, Nats.will tell you it's about the anthem, flag(s), songs, ground location and a plethora of other reasons why they wouldn't want to be associatedm under the current arrangements
PS I think GS was wondering aloud about whether Dublin plates might increase the likelihood of his car being stolen or damanged if parked aroud the Holywood and Shore Roads near Glentoran and Crusaders. I'd like to hope not.
Bit in The Independent today:
"[Kearns] will be represented by sports lawyer Gary Rice of Beauchamps Solicitors, and he has the backing of FIFA and the FAI, who will be represented by their legal director, Sarah O'Shea."
"The case will turn on CAS's interpretation of those FIFA regulations, 15, 16, 17 and 18, which relate to players' eligibility for representative teams," explained Rice.
"And once CAS decides, it is final and binding. The only appeal after that is to the Swiss Supreme Court, and that is unlikely."
"Rice anticipates a one-day hearing tomorrow. "The submissions and documents have already been read and it will only be a case of the main protagonists speaking to clarify points," he said."I'm hopeful the verdict will be announced relatively soon, but that will be up to the three arbitrators, who are chosen from a panel of leading sports jurists worldwide.""
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
They support the team for the same reasons as you. It's not a political statement, it's an expression of nationality.Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
It's obvious you are not trying to wind up anybody and I'm not trying to imply that you are. But you need to remember and understand that international football is not about politics or geographical borders or place of birth etc etc etc. It's about nationality and representing/supporting your nation.Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
Except that even the biggest eejit in the North can grasp that the vast majority of the population belong to one nationality or the other. There's no mainstream aspiration to hold dual citizenship! Why not ask yer own family?? Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
As for the other statement, it exists now only in the Unionist Revisionist history handbook. It was hardly a willing arrangement or did you not notice the last 500 years or more of protest??
There's plenty of actions done by that government are now discredited but there's no major issue of 'statelessness' despite your 'concerns'.Quote:
Perhaps it was a populist stunt by the then Government to create an impression of toughness on immigration, with the predictable effect of leaving many Irish born children potentially stateless? Still, glad you agree it wasn't exactly progressive.
Except there aren't "millions" in the North and the rest of that statement makes no sense!Quote:
Er, perhaps not, given that the Republic is quite prepared to give any dysfunctional Orangeman (or me, or EG. or awec) a passport. One basically contradicts the other. The difference is really that offering notional benefits to millions of people in Northern Ireland doesn't actually cost anything, while providing equal citizenship for everyone born in Dublin does, or is perceived to.
Except the only people who could be remotely be described as such would be Paul Butler and perhaps Tony Cascarino. But they were both eligible for Irish passports and the former definitely has Irish heritage.Quote:
Eight or nine guys from Andytown would probably get the same reaction as eight or nine English in your side used to get, ie gentle ridicule. I'm still fairly sure that more nationalists from NI will play internationally for us rather than you in the future, for reasons already discussed on these threads.
Oh and you Brits are welcome to that eejit Lawrenson.
Clearly you've not read the alternative 'reasoning' on OWB or even asked local nationalists why? And nothing to do with 'crude bias', just facts(eg. Have never mentioned local traffic arrangements!!) !Quote:
I think Mr Parker's and GSpain's rather simpler explanations are more likely. They support the Republic of Ireland because they always have, and probably their ancestors did. They don't need to justify not supporting anyone else. Equally, if some of them follow your lead and constantly stir about flags, anthems and the Boucher Road contraflow system, don't be surprised if your crude bias gets answered.
Which would be confirmed If you ever got out and asked them?
You're (wilfully?) mising the point again. I didn't mention dual nationality. It's perfect possible for me, or anyone else from NI to have only British nationality, but clearly to be Irish. Part of Ireland is part of Britain, remember?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardee Bhoy
Actually, it exists in every Northern Ireland election result for the past 90 years. They supersede some protest in 1510, 1690 or 1169, you know.Quote:
As for the other statement, it exists now only in the Unionist Revisionist history handbook. It was hardly a willing arrangement or did you not notice the last 500 years or more of protest??
Are you sure? Many of the people affected (ie, those born to non-nationals in the Republic, and the parents) will likely be refugees, or unable to return to their own countries for economic or other reasons, and thus to qualify for passports there. Which must create the real risk that they'll be stateless. I'd be delighted should you offer some evidence that reassures my concerns.Quote:
There's plenty of actions done by that government are now discredited but there's no major issue of 'statelessness' despite your 'concerns'
1.8 million people = millions, even to a pedant like you, surely?Quote:
Except there aren't "millions" in the North and the rest of that statement makes no sense!
It's quite straightforwardly explained. It doesn't really matter whether there are two million or 20 million in NI, if the Republic generally doesn't give them (including me, potentially) the vote, social services and the like, its costs are negligible. That's not to deny the importance of what it offers to people in NI or beyond, but that's more symbolic. Whereas the Southern electorate didn't seem to agree with you about the lack of a major issue locally - else they wouldn't have welcomed Ahern's populist stunt so enthusiastically.
So what? I assumed they all had Irish lineage, but they're all English in the widely-recognised sense of having grown up and spent all/ most of their lives there, and probably in having British parents and British pasports to travel on before getting called up by the FAI. This isn't intended as a stir, just equating what happened in the recent past with your hypothetical future example. If a future NI side had eight or nine nationalists in it, or all 11 were unionists or from Stoke or Birmingham, no doubt the local media will try to create a story. But it's not that big a deal.Quote:
Except the only people who could be remotely be described as such would be Paul Butler and perhaps Tony Cascarino. But they were both eligible for Irish passports and the former definitely has Irish heritage
Don't be absurd. I've challenged that reasoning on this thread, never mind OWC, as well as reading and replying to local NI nationalist fans. On this issue I agree with Mr Parker, Newryrep and others as I've said. And with GSpain, whose experience of regularly watching games in and involving NI is rather greater than your own.Quote:
Clearly you've not read the alternative 'reasoning' on OWB or even asked local nationalists why? And nothing to do with 'crude bias', just facts(eg. Have never mentioned local traffic arrangements!!) !
Er, you were at pains to detail the layout of South and Central Belfast even after being corrected by AWEC amd I, who've actually lived there. More importantly, you seem to be telling the local RoI fans why they support as they do. They're perfectly capable of explaining it themselves.
With you on this one. Get that miserable b*gger off screen and I'll become a card-carrier for Fianna Fail and the SDLP.Quote:
Oh and you Brits are welcome to that eejit Lawrenson
Jaysus, I hope Lord Widgery isn't chairing this tribunal tomorrow...
I understand a senior FAI official will be patrolling outside the tribunal office with an Uzi, just in case.Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman
The following is a piece by Paul Rowan, in The Sunday Times.
I was unable to find a link, so I've just typed it out.
"Daniel Kearns was released by West Ham Utd several months ago, has yet to find a new club and if he does, appears destined for a career in the undergrowth of professional football, a bit like Jean-Marc Bosman.
Like Bosman, the greatest legacy of his footballing career might lie in the courts as tomorrow the CAS in Lausanne hears the case of the IFA v Daniel Kearns, the FAI and FIFA, in what has up till now been known as Gibsongate. Should the CAS decide to uphold FIFA's position that Kearns is entitled to play for ROI, even though he and his immediate relatives were born in NI and never lived in ROI, then the ruling could have a huge impact on the future of football in Ireland and a particularly negative one for the team North of the border.
The IFA is not particularly bothered about Kearns, but they feel it is a case they can win, otherwise they wouldn't have spent tens of thousands in legal fees pursuing the case this far. What stung them more was the defection of quality players such as Manchester United's Darron Gibson, Marc Wilson of Portsmouth and Everton's Shane Duffy. As NI U21 manager Steve Beaglehole put it to The Sunday Times: "They were some of our most promising players. They stay with us and then they get cherry-picked when they are making a mark at their clubs. That is when the offer comes and inevitably it is the best players that are sought after."
What frightens the likes of Beaglehole is that NI, which has already been overtaken by ROI in terms of successfully qualifying for big tournaments, might become effectively an Irish B team should it suddenly become fashionable for young players in the North to defect to the South. The defections have inevitably been from the nationalist community so far and should the trend escalate, tentative efforts to rid the sport of sectarianism in NI, would be smashed to pieces. Kearns himself holds an Irish passport and always has done. But the IFA will argue that recently introduced FIFA laws on eligibility should bar him from playing for the country that he feels is his allegiance by birthright.
Under FIFA rules, any player who has a passport for a country can represent them provided they have some link to the nation they represent.
The rule was tightened in recent years to stop abuses, particularly by Brazilians who were popping up on international teams in the Middle East after being handed passports. In Duffy's case, his parents were born in Donegal, so the IFA did not pursue that case, but they believe that Kearns is a test case they can win because his relatives were born in NI.
FIFA has already rejected this argument and if the IFA are proved wrong in Lausanne - as most people think they will be - then an increasing number of young players will be tempted to follow Kearns' path. That both associations are playing for high stakes is evident by the fact that the FAI is sending over a highly regarded senior counsel from Dublin, Paul Gardiner.
The CAS is the final arbitrator in the matter and will hear the case in camera before reserving judgement."
Equally, it could have a more modest impact. Most obviously, many international footballers (including in NI's senior and particularly youth teams) are from outside the country. Ditto plenty of other countries, large and small. Even the Germans had a Brazilian ringer, England have struggled since they lost their Canadian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Rowan
Some top players from NI will turn out for the Republic instead, others from our youth sides will fall out of international football completely. I'm not denying that the net effect will be weaken the NI side, but to repeat there are reasons why nationalist-background players in future will continue to play for NI. Broadly, the team's easier to get into, any international football may be thought better than none (especially if it increases the chance of professional football in Britain or beyond), future players may see things differently from current fans and so on.
This is a bit silly. SB mades it sound like the FAI send round the child-catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. In practice they pick the players they consider the best, the most likely to progress to the senior team. If Dogarse and his boss want to stop this happening, they could have made an effort to reach some bilateral agreement with the FAI. That neither side will choose anyone who's reached 18 and played adult representative games for the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Beaglehole
You what? They matched NI's record of three finals in 1994 and have qualified for one out of eight since. We're talking mediocre and more so here, not contrasting success and failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Rowan
Translation: it might be fashionable for a small number of very good players who are good enough to reasonably expect full international football for either and to have a choice. Since, almost by definition, there are few such players at any given time, it won't become fashionable.Quote:
might become effectively an Irish B team should it suddenly become fashionable for young players in the North to defect to the South
For many people (including some comedians on this forum), NI is already a B team on the slightly tenuous grounds that it's short and mid-term record is weaker. Fine, but by the same reasoning the Republic regularly fielding five or six players from Britain makes them a B team too.
I recognise that some nationalist-background players might prefer no international games at all to playing for NI. Fine, their loss.
Ill-informed nonsense. Even if by 'anti-sectarianism smashed' all he means is 'more than the odd nationalist plays for the South', I've explained above why this is unlikely to have an enormous effect. The NI team will continue to include nationalists, while most fans in nationalist NI will go on supporting the Republic. Which isn't sectarian either. The intent (and effect) of Football for All is to make the atmosphere at games and arround more welcoming, not to convert anyone.Quote:
The defections have inevitably been from the nationalist community so far and should the trend escalate, tentative efforts to rid the sport of sectarianism in NI, would be smashed to pieces
There's nothing stopping them now, up to a competitive full international cap, or having already changed once.Quote:
if the IFA are proved wrong in Lausanne - as most people think they will be - then an increasing number of young players will be tempted to follow Kearns' path
Except yer own family! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
That aside, you are either Irish or British, not both. A
s we keep repeating the latter don't want to be Irish. Even the dogs on the street know that!
As awec said they barely acknowledge Paddy's Day. Which is fine.
And part of Ireland is in the dregs of the British, er, 'empire' as was. Britain ends, in your case, at Cairnryan!
Created so specially for the unionists. With no account taken for the indigenous population.Quote:
Actually, it exists in every Northern Ireland election result for the past 90 years.
Yawn.
Or you could find it yourself if you were really that bothered, though I doubt your 'concerns' are in the remotest relevant.Quote:
Many of the people affected (ie, those born to non-nationals in the Republic, and the parents) will likely be refugees, or unable to return to their own countries for economic or other reasons, and thus to qualify for passports there.
I'd be delighted should you offer some evidence that reassures my concerns.
Said the Hypocrite to the bishop.Quote:
1.8 million people = millions, even to a pedant like you, surely?
If you say so. Precious few others are currently making it an issue. And again you don't mention for any reasons of concern about the latter!Quote:
It's quite straightforwardly explained.
It doesn't really matter whether there are two million or 20 million in NI, if the Republic generally doesn't give them (including me, potentially) the vote, social services and the like, its costs are negligible.
That's not to deny the importance of what it offers to people in NI or beyond, but that's more symbolic.
Whereas the Southern electorate didn't seem to agree with you about the lack of a major issue locally - else they wouldn't have welcomed Ahern's populist stunt so enthusiastically.
Presumably you are unaware of the concept of Diaspora??Quote:
I assumed they all had Irish lineage, but they're all English in the widely-recognised sense of having grown up and spent all/ most of their lives there, and probably in having British parents and British pasports to travel on before getting called up by the FAI.
Being born outside your own country does not automatically mean you want to accept citizenship of the host!
90% of them have full Irish heritage in the 'purest' sense, which I only mention as you seem to think this is an issue!
Amazingly enough you only think you've 'agreed' with them, whereas their replies don't really support this eccentric claim. Still if you want to think so, fine. Not seen you disagreeing with any such comments on OWB.Quote:
I've challenged that reasoning on this thread, never mind OWC, as well as reading and replying to local NI nationalist fans. On this issue I agree with Mr Parker, Newryrep and others as I've said.
More importantly, you seem to be telling the local RoI fans why they support as they do. They're perfectly capable of explaining it themselves.
And not telling Nats from the North anything. Just know rather more about their views and mindset than your goodself and am sure they'd tell me if it was anything wrong??
Except ours are in living memory. Yours are 26 years and counting by the time of 2012, though recognise, if there are play-offs for 2016 in its current ridiculous format, even the North could make those? :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
A B team for who?? Like said upthread, they're all Irish citizens FFS. With that mindset, who can blame Nats for the latter.....Quote:
Fine, but by the same reasoning the Republic regularly fielding five or six players from Britain makes them a B team too.
I recognise that some nationalist-background players might prefer no international games at all to playing for NI. Fine, their loss.
err.............Good Friday Agreement Constitutional Issues part 1:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
The participants endorse the commitment made by the British and Irish
Governments that, in a new British-Irish Agreement replacing the Anglo-
Irish Agreement, they will:
...(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.
Fair enough Fly, but how many people actually have both?
Heard it was originally around 10k, around half of which was 'business users', though would be amazed if that number hadn't, er, rocketed at some point, before the crash.
Sorry, this is just nonsense. I'm quite clearly, self-evidently both British AND Irish, however difficult that is for your Ladybird book of Cartoon Provo cliches to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardee Bhoy
Correct me if wrong, but I'm fairly sure the nationalists get a vote too. Of course I accept the way the border's drawn is unfair, but if there wasn't one at all as you'd prefer, it would be more so. But don't let me disturb your beauty sleep.Quote:
Created so specially for the unionists. With no account taken for the indigenous population.. Yawn
Will do. I have in the past actually, I remember a doctor who was working in a Dublin maternity ward at the time telling me of the large proportion of births there to mothers from west Africa and eastern Europe who would struggle to pass on their own nationality on to their kids.Quote:
Or you could find it yourself if you were really that bothered, though I doubt your 'concerns' are in the remotest relevant
Apart from being relevant in themselves, my concerns are a response to your predictable, cliched, factually wrong assumption that the Republic offers equally to everyone in Ireland. It doesn't, so don't assume it's a clincher whatever the argument.
Now you're sending me to sleep. For what it's worth I assumed 100% of them had full Irish heritage, whatever in the purest sense means- maybe they've had some ritualistic Catholic bar-mitzvah or something? It's only an issue in the terms you raised it- all these people are eligible to play, but if a lot of them come from, or give support to, another country, it might create a nine day wonder in the media.Quote:
Presumably you are unaware of the concept of Diaspora?? Being born outside your own country does not automatically mean you want to accept citizenship of the host! 90% of them have full Irish heritage in the 'purest' sense, which I only mention as you seem to think this is an issue!
The posters I quoted have made clear that their unwillingness to support NI has little or nothing to do with the choice of flag or anthem, the location of Windsor, or similar factors. They support the Republic of Ireland. I mean, I'm not making any particularly extravagant claim here.Quote:
Amazingly enough you only think you've 'agreed' with them, whereas their replies don't really support this eccentric claim. Still if you want to think so, fine
Try the thread title referring Daniel Kearns, unless it's been deleted. I'll admit it was hard going- FHTB is almost as hard to have a rational discussion with as you are.Quote:
Not seen you disagreeing with any such comments on OWB
Sharing their broad view (albeit at an exaggerated, cartoonish extreme) doesn't necessarily make you any better informed on it than I am. But to repeat- I'm not making any great claim, just judging people from what they post here.Quote:
And not telling Nats from the North anything. Just know rather more about their views and mindset than your goodself and am sure they'd tell me if it was anything wrong??
Admittedly I'm a gnarled veteran, but my memory of 1982 and 1986 is quite vivid thanks (as it is of 1988, 1990 and 1994). Like I said, more recently we're comparing mediocre and more mediocre.Quote:
Except ours are in living memory. Yours are 26 years and counting by the time of 2012
Glad we agree on something. I'm still not convinced 24 teams will happen, let's see how Poland/ Ukraine goes.Quote:
though recognise, if there are play-offs for 2016 in its current ridiculous format, even the North could make those
Indeed. Although of course, my clear both-Irish-and-Britishness long predates 1998. As I said, I'm a gnarled veteran. Just to stress the point- I don't need [Republic of] Irish citizenship to be Irish. So the figure for those who've applied for joint citizenship, although interesting generally, is irrelevant to how Irish I am.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly
Ha ha. Well if yer the benchmark, then both countries should apply to disband immediately!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
If you can find vast swathes of people who claim similar I'd be amazed. My experience of most unionists is that they are 'Irish' by default having been born on the island, but don't want anything to do with the vast majority of the population or their vision of idenity or culture, including Prods from outside the osc who they see as 'selling out'.
Taken from the same book of 'cliches', you refer to, in the usual paranoid manner.
WTF are you on about?? Everyone who's half-wise knows the whole thing was gerrymandered.Quote:
Correct me if wrong, but I'm fairly sure the nationalists get a vote too. Of course I accept the way the border's drawn is unfair, but if there wasn't one at all as you'd prefer, it would be more so. But don't let me disturb your beauty sleep.
Pomposity Alert!Quote:
I have in the past actually, I remember a doctor who was working in a Dublin maternity ward at the time telling me of the large proportion of births there to mothers from west Africa and eastern Europe who would struggle to pass on their own nationality on to their kids.
Apart from being relevant in themselves, my concerns are a response to your predictable, cliched, factually wrong assumption that the Republic offers equally to everyone in Ireland.
Very touching, but hardly relevant now.
Your patronising concerns are wholly false as you think it's a useful issue to support your views against the Irish state, you now 'claim' to be part of above?? :eek:
Actually you raised the issue, implying they weren't Irish because they had lived elsewhere. presumably more irony?Quote:
It's only an issue in the terms you raised it- all these people are eligible to play, but if a lot of them come from, or give support to, another country, it might create a nine day wonder in the media.
Except you said it. And am fairly confident those are all partial issues, but then you haven't presented any evidence from any nationalists!Quote:
The posters I quoted have made clear that their unwillingness to support NI has little or nothing to do with the choice of flag or anthem, the location of Windsor, or similar factors.
We await your response with interest.
Yer the one saying how wonderful OWB are. Go on there and convert them instead?? Enough others have tried!Quote:
Try the thread title referring Daniel Kearns, unless it's been deleted.
Why not let them be the judge but am fairly confident on this one I'm right and you're wrong! Lol.Quote:
Sharing their broad view doesn't necessarily make you any better informed on it than I am.
Hmm. Hardly in keeping with the consistency in your arguments on here.....Quote:
Admittedly I'm a gnarled veteran, but my memory of 1982 and 1986 is quite vivid thanks (as it is of 1988, 1990 and 1994).
Especially, with regards to amnesia!
ArdeeBhoy seems to be failing to grasp the most basic of things if he thinks that you are either Irish OR British.
Everyone born on this island is Irish. Part of the island is also British.
Just like anyone born in Scotland is Scottish and British. They are not Scottish OR British.
Terrible research by the journalist.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
I haven't claimed vast number, nor indeed anyone. I've merely pointed out that having been born in Ireland, grown up there, been to school, college, work etc., sounding Irish and er, wanting to identify as Irish, I AM Irish. It's quite simple really. If other similar-background people don't want to join me, I disagree with them (although I think you exaggerate the extent to which they deny Irishness).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardee Bhoy
Look, if you don't want to be dismissed as cliched, stop spouting cliches. All that "don't want anything to do with the vast majority of the population or their vision of idenity or culture" means is basically 'don't want a united Ireland'.Quote:
Taken from the same book of 'cliches', you refer to, in the usual paranoid manner
Er, I agreed the way the border was drawn was unfair (particularly to the 11% who were nationalists in what became NI). Not having a border would have been equally unwelcome to the 17% unionist minority in Ireland. Just as unfair to more people, so arguably worse overall?Quote:
WTF are you on about?? Everyone who's half-wise knows the whole thing was gerrymandered
I don't claim to be part of the [Republic of] Irish state, I'm from a different country which includes part of Ireland. Try to understand the difference.Quote:
think it's a useful issue to support your views against the Irish state, you now 'claim' to be part of above??
I didn't imply that. I said they were English because in most cases they'd grown up almost entirely in England, probably with English parents (my only arguable implication was that, if they qualify through grandparentage, other close relations are likely to be not Irish, most obviously er, English). No irony needed.Quote:
Actually you raised the issue, implying they weren't Irish because they had lived elsewhere. presumably more irony?
I referred you to Mr Parker only yesterday on this thread. He said "Anyway, I think to many are caught up in the location of the ground. That is not what most Nationalists who refuse to darken its doors and support NI would point to as their reason, it is only one of many". I might be wrong in my assumption that his existing support for the RoI is the main one, but he can asnwer himself. Newryrep's unequivocal comment I will dig out of the index.Quote:
Except you said it. And am fairly confident those are all partial issues, but then you haven't presented any evidence from any nationalists!
On the broad eligibility issues, it should be fairly obvious I disagree with many on OWC. I've no problem with players from NI appearing for the South (unless they've already played for NI as adults). As for the CAS thing, I think it's both pointless (ie inevitably destined to lose), wasteful (the IFA is skint as it is) and indeed vindictive.Quote:
Yer the one saying how wonderful OWB are. Go on there and convert them instead?? Enough others have tried!
Of course. It's a discussion board, no doubt they'll have their say shortly.Quote:
Why not let them be the judge but am fairly confident on this one I'm right and you're wrong! Lol
Marc Wilson and Darron Gibson were not making a mark for their clubs when they decided top play for Ireland. They were both 16 when they joined the Ireland underage set-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
Perhaps Beaglehole should consider how he came to persuade promising Manchester United youth player Oliver Norwood to leave the English youth set-up to join him. Over 25 English born youth players have been 'cherry picked' by Beaglehole to represent the North in the last few years. The large number of players has attracted the concern of the English FA and players like Joe Dudgeon have been contacted by the English FA about his future intentions.
Its quite clear that it is palyers who are contacting the FAI with the intention of representing Ireland as was the case with Wilson, Duffy and almost all of the current crop of players from Derry like the McEleney brothers.
CDG, as I've agreed earlier in the thread Beaglehole is being a hypocrite, but do you have any links for the English FA's supposed concern? I'd say the most likely of the guys you mention to have a choice to make is the Watford defender, Lee Hodson. Only 19, but with 20-odd games in the Champ last term he could conceivably be in our full side soon at right-back. Let's be honest, his chance of England U-21 is probably marginal and of displacing Glen Johnson, zero.
Perhaps they do, but everyone who knows the definition of the word "gerrymandered" knows that they'd be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
If the border had been gerrymandered, they would have given over more territory to the Free State.
edit: well strictly speaking gerrymandering doesn't apply at all to national borders but you get the gist of it
CD,
My post was a little sarcastic. But Gerrymandering can work both ways you know.
Hmm. The GFA allows for this, not that it means anything conclusive. Except to make allowances for a miniscule no.of oddballs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
But again, amnesia springs to mind as you keep telling us you're British! And how you want nothing to do with the indigenous population of Beal-feirste!!
And not Irish in the sense that most Irish people would accept it, eg. by way of passport, culture etc.
Similarly, them rejecting the vast majority of the island, whether they wish to be 'united' or not.Quote:
Look, if you don't want to be dismissed as cliched, stop spouting cliches. All that "don't want anything to do with the vast majority of the population or their vision of idenity or culture" means is basically 'don't want a united Ireland'.
Or they could always have moved to the Britain they, er, idolise so much......Quote:
Not having a border would have been equally unwelcome to the 17% unionist minority in Ireland. Just as unfair to more people, so arguably worse overall?
Only on a definition based on an illegal occupation. Great.Quote:
I don't claim to be part of the [Republic of] Irish state, I'm from a different country which includes part of Ireland. Try to understand the difference.
Except in most cases you'd be wrong, hence the comment re.irony!Quote:
I said they were English because in most cases they'd grown up almost entirely in England, probably with English parents (my only arguable implication was that, if they qualify through grandparentage, other close relations are likely to be not Irish, most obviously er, English). No irony needed.
Assuming you can talk for them, in at least one instance thought detected at least a slight hint of sarcasm/irony, which doubtless they'll confirm?? And dozens of other Nats will of course agree with you. Not. Lol.Quote:
I referred you to Mr Parker only yesterday on this thread. He said "Anyway, I think to many are caught up in the location of the ground. That is not what most Nationalists who refuse to darken its doors and support NI would point to as their reason, it is only one of many". I might be wrong in my assumption that his existing support for the RoI is the main one, but he can asnwer himself. Newryrep's unequivocal comment I will dig out of the index.
For future reference, that phrase would sound a lot snappier if you omitted 'cartoon' which is effectively already implied by 'Ladybird'. 'Ladybird book of Provo clichés' - see how much easier that rolls off the tongue? Assuming you employ it as much verbally as you do in composition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
And a cautionary tale about the dangers of Google's 'I'm feeling lucky' button.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Parker
Whatever you think the GFA allows for is irrelevant- I don't need it to be Irish. I was Irish for decades before the GFA was a twinkle in Mo Mowlam 's eye. How many times?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardee bhoy
Yes- I'm British and I'm Irish too. Yippee!Quote:
But again, amnesia springs to mind as you keep telling us you're British!
Apart from me being as "indigenous" as anyone else from Belfast (ie, not at all), when did I say I wanted nothing to do?Quote:
And how you want nothing to do with the indigenous population of Beal-feirste!!
See above. In your blinkered World, only the majority who want a united Ireland count- even if they're never been near Ireland. For God's sake, do better?Quote:
And not Irish in the sense that most Irish people would accept it, eg. by way of passport, culture etc
I suggest you follow your own advice and do some research. All Ladybird books explain simply- unsurprising as they're aimed at little kids- not all are cartoonish. Apologies if I repeat myself, it's understandable given the sheer volume of nonsense spouted by AB and occasionally echoed by you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sullivinho
Address your issues re.Amnesia and you have your answer.
Though I suspect memory loss, selective or otherwise, will prevail!
Gerrymandering just doesn't apply. The word "gerrymandering" refers to the manipulation of borders within a state to ensure electoral dominance, whereas the borders between Northern and Southern Ireland were drawn in such a way as to maximise territorial dominance. I probably wouldn't have pointed it out except that if you're to cling to these archaic civil war politics then you might as well get the details right.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Yeah right! See above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Pomposity alert!Quote:
All Ladybird books explain simply- unsurprising as they're aimed at little kids- not all are cartoonish. Apologies if I repeat myself, it's understandable given the sheer volume of nonsense spouted by AB and occasionally echoed by you.
Assuming of course GR doesn't spout any nonsense which of course is far from the case!
Except that I've already said it was tongue-in-cheek, even accepting your definition of gerrymandering in an Irish context. And have never ever mentioned the civil war on this MB, or elsewhere, for that matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
It's not just my definition! And I believe calling the state of Northern Ireland an "illegal occupation" would fall under the banner of civil war politics. Unless you were being sarcastic about that too; in which case it might be worth looking into why your sarcasm is so easily conflated with your serious points.
Fair dues to youse posters you sure like an argument (Ye could argue for Ireland)
Agreed. Beaglehole, along with Worthington, coming out with ignorant babble. I couldn't help but laugh at their comments at the time and I still can't help but laugh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Indeed, well said GR. I have a feeling that Rowan wants to come across as 'even-handed' to both sets of supporters and his poorly researched, spurious assertions do not help his case whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Exactly. This whole idea of Shane Duffy's (and Kearns') decision to change opening the proverbial floodgates is nothing more than sensationalism. Players have been switching for years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
I've never had a problem at either ground but both are located in less affluent areas of Belfast. It wouldn't stop me going to either ground for a game I wanted to seeQuote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
but I'd be less likely to go on a whim. I've parked at both without a problem. For either I'd arrive really early and park right at the gate. There are areas near quite
a few LoI grounds where I'd be reluctant to park too.
For Windsor I can turn off the Motorway, go up the Lisburn Road and park on leafy Windsor Avenue where anyone would have a better class of car than mine to steal/damage.
By sheer coincidence I was just talking to a friend tonight and a mutual friend of ours was meant to go to Cliftonville v FC United yesterday but decided not to for fear his car would
be stolen/damaged.
Good Ol' Nige is hoping for common sense to prevail tomorrow. Is he switching allegiance too?
Nigel up for FIFA battle
Quote:
FIFA insist that if a player holds an Irish passport then he qualifies to play for the Republic due to the Good Friday Agreement. But Northern Ireland boss Worthington insists: “We need to clarify the situation and I just hope common sense prevails.”
So once the case has been completed at CAS, will it be known as 'he's declared on a Kearns' from then on?
Thanks for typing the article out Fly, but the article is awash with nonsense. I think Rowan got lazy, or else he was bluffing all along.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
It'd be one way for the lad to make a name for himself. Probably not the method he'd personally have gone for though.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Good man, delighted to have you on side. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Are you sure? I think you're mistaken or else my understanding of the application of Irish citizenship law throughout the whole island is incorrect. To the best of my knowledge, however, it makes no distinction regarding place of birth on the island in terms of accessibility, entitlement or right. The amendment you mention also applied to those born in the north; the effect of the amendment was to prospectively restrict the constitutional right to citizenship by birth to those who are born on the island of Ireland to at least one parent who is (or is someone entitled to be) an Irish citizen. After all, the need to tighten up the "loophole" derived from the Chen case; when a foreign national gave birth to a child in Belfast and was thereby able to claim residency rights in the UK as the mother of a child in possession of Irish/EU citizenship.Quote:
There are plenty of dubious aspects about its application, and others worthy of debate, maybe elsewhere. Just to repeat a couple briefly- it looks odd that the Republic will happily offer citizenship to pretty much everyone in NI, but won't automatically do so for everyone born in the South. As confirmed by nearly 80% in a recent constitutional referendum.
I haven't had a look at the relevant legislation in a while, but I'm pretty sure it does include a provision conferring citizenship (or allowing for the the possibility of such) onto those born in Ireland to foreign nationals who would otherwise be stateless, presumably by virtue of circumstances beyond their control or whatever other factors might restrict them from claiming a citizenship they might normally be entitled to. In such an instance, Irish citizenship can be conferred by the Minister for Justice, or possibly it has automatic application from birth; not completely certain. Anyhow, I believe the relevant legislation conforms with a 1954 UN convention relating to stateless person. One thing I know for certain, however, is that there's no legal vacuum there. I hope that soothes any anxiety. ;-)Quote:
Many of the people affected (ie, those born to non-nationals in the Republic, and the parents) will likely be refugees, or unable to return to their own countries for economic or other reasons, and thus to qualify for passports there. Which must create the real risk that they'll be stateless.
Pretty much every act and declaration by the British government in the recent contemporary past, bar voluntarily relinquishing the union with Northern Ireland, has more or less vindicated the notion that a united Ireland is a perfectly legitimate aspiration. Odd considering Northern Ireland's supposed integral part of the UK?... Northern Ireland certainly is no longer considered an intrinsic constituent part of the UK like, say, England or Scotland are - if it ever was at all, always having been a bit of a constitutional anomaly within the UK - and a legal pathway is in place for its departing from the union. If the UK felt this so-called Irish irredentism was completely and unquestionably illegitimate, the notion alone of Northern Ireland's departure from the union wouldn't be so seriously entertained.Quote:
As for the irredentism (although I think the name's overblown), it's still there. Every political institution in the South has reuniting Ireland as a major theoretical objective, even if we all know you won't see them for dust if it ever becomes even a remote posibility in practice.
I don't know. I mean, telling an Irish national that he shouldn't be allowed to represent his country in the sporting sphere is kind of denying him his national identity. I'm really not trying to sensationalise anything here. It's quite simple to see the implications of a desire to restrict his right.Quote:
This is a bit over the top, Danny. Wanting guys from Derry or Newry to play for NI doesn't quite equate to exclude dsisenters, deny their nationalism or whatever.
Hehe, I can't remember which thick buffoon it was banned me last time, although I have been banned on two occasions, supposedly for using threatening and abusive language under a previous third account - of which I have no recollection whatsoever of ever creating or using - or something. I never quite got an answer as to when this occurred or what it involved exactly. Anyway, I've gotten over that and try to remind myself that I'd only be wasting my time trying to spell a few things out there anyway. I do find it a bit frustrating, mind you, to see such unmitigated rubbish, ignorance and misinformation not merely spouted by the likes of 'fhtb' about things I care about, but also applauded and defended so vehemently by others even less knowledgeable than he, God help them. Nevertheless, I appreciate your sympathy. ;)Quote:
Has FHTB banned you then? Look, we feel your pain, but it isn't the end of the World. Just re-register. Ardee Bhoy will lend you one of his numerous aliases. Just remember to use the phrases 'paranoid planters' and 'medieval theme park' in every post and you'll be fine.
If I wanted to be picky, I could point out that Irish nationality entitles those living outside the state in possession of it to an Irish passport - and those rights that come with possessing a passport - as well as diplomatic support from Irish embassies or consulates abroad. So, something of substance at least beyond symbolic recognition.Quote:
It doesn't really matter whether there are two million or 20 million in NI, if the Republic generally doesn't give them (including me, potentially) the vote, social services and the like, its costs are negligible.
As for the Rowan piece posted by 'The Fly', I appreciate the effort of going to the bother of typing it up, but it really is quite a poor article. 'Gather round' has offered a good dissection of it above. Personally, I think the least Rowan could have done, if he was going to do an article on the CAS case, would have been to actually quote the relevant statute correctly instead of, OWC-style, completely misrepresenting what it states. Then he might be able to even try and understand its implications. And "Gibsongate"?! Good Lord, where the hell did that obscenity originate? Thankfully, I've never heard anyone refer to it as that. Ever.
Beyond the morality of the partition of Ireland, I think it's clear that, while 'ArdeeBhoy' might be using "gerrymandering" in a technically incorrect context, he's treating it as being synonymous with the idea of manufacturing a state - like how an electoral boundary might be manipulated to favour a certain group over another - as big as it possibly could have been while at the same time ensuring a secure population bias in favour of as many Irish unionists as possible for the foreseeable future. Any bigger and the population balance would have been tipped in favour of nationalists/Catholics; any smaller and it would have struggled to sustain itself and left a lot more disgruntled unionists than a few thousand Protestant landowner's in east Donegal. I don't think that is such a controversial idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Ha, indeed! Let's completely ignore what the relevant statute says in favour of Worthington's personal vision of "common sense"... :clown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator