Player eligibility row

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Originally Posted by geysir

a bit more accurate guidance to the Newstalk OTB program.
http://media.newstalk.ie/listenback/

off the ball - monday - part 3
from 30mins on to 40 mins approx
Interview with Kenny Donaldson, a cheerful chap who states in the interview that he is a practicing Unionist :confused:
He says that the atmosphere at WP has radically changed from what it was some years ago.

Did he also say "Phil the Coulter" ?
a sort of a Percy French slip of the tongue.

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Thanks for that - I shall give it a listen when I've a mo.

As for Kenny Donaldson, by "practising" Unionist, I think he meant "active" i.e. as the UUP's Spokesman on the Community and Voluntary section, he is actually an office bearer.

And he is well qualified to remark on the "radical changes" which have been made to the atmosphere at WP, since he is a regular NI fan. In this respect, he is very different from eg Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice), Ian Paisley Jr. (DUP) and David McNarry (UUP spokesman on Sport), all of whom are now rushing to the barricades to defend the playing of GSTQ at Windsor, despite their never darkening the doors of the place that any of us fans have ever noticed.

Then again, there is an Election due...

Anyhow, here is another Statement by Donaldson, from his Party's website, which may be of interest:
http://www.uup.org/news/general/gene...re-born-in.php
Whilst I appreciate that many (all?) of the sentiments expressed may find little favour on this forum, I still think it is rather bold, even brave, for a Unionist politician to speak out against the playing of GSTQ at NI games, at this particular time.
Let's hope his is the voice of the future!

P.S. Re the Phil Coulter slip, I suspect you may be correct, though "Phil the Fluter" was only known for one Ball (singular), unlike "Phil The Coulter", who is pretty much all balls these days...

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Interesting. Might be time to set up a poll for what you'd replace it with?

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Tbh, one of the earlier Polls did pursue that avenue. However, the problem is that those who would retain GSTQ invariably justify their stance on the basis that there is no concensus on what should replace it.
Which, until the decision is actually made to find a new Anthem, will always be a problem for those of us who are pro-change i.e. if a third support GSTQ, then they only need to split the vote amongst three alternatives in order still to be the largest "choice".
As far as I'm concerned (and a majority of the pro-changers?), we need to establish the principle first, then deal with finding the alternative.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Teenage Kicks? How cool an anthem would that be!!!

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Would do for me; in fact, just about anything would do, although I am increasingly being drawn to this particular version of another popular candidate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCbuRA_D3KU

i think this would capture the diversity of Northern Ireland and its people - and sung by one of your own.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Imo you're being highly disingenuous with that interpretation of your experience on OWC, Predator.

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Perhaps so, but I wasn't basing it solely on my own experience. Recently Danny Invincible was suspended from the site for a rather long period following his (in my opinion, reasonable) posts on the thread dedicated to 'Owen''s facebook page, for allegedly holding two accounts through which he supposedly posted 'offensive' comments and made threats. Ask Danny Invincible for the responses he received from his inquiries; they're quite childish.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

For when, following a period of "lurking", you first started posting on the Board (around the France play-off), you received little or no adverse comment. However, when you took exception to some (only some, btw) of the response to the Duffy defection, your attitude visibly hardened.

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I actually did receive quite a bit of adverse comment around the time of the play-off, admittedly from 'some' rather than all. What you're saying is that my attitude 'hardened' because I defended Duffy and others' decision to change, something which was somewhat of a contrarian position on the message-board. I'd actually say that certain posters' attitudes to me (and others, including Danny Invincible) 'hardened'.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Now that's fair enough, except that a hardening of attitude in response to what you consider to be unreasonable remarks is one thing. It is quite another when you descend to petty, even risible, argument* to try to bolster your case.

When you did that, you should not be surprised if people began to consider you a troll.
* - For those who don't know, Predator strongly defended the motives, manner and timing of Duffy's switch, which is fair enough. Except that when presented with clearly contradictory and damning evidence of Duffy/his Da saying one thing, whilst simultaneously doing something quite different, rather than withdrawing gracefully, Predator tried to rely on the "defence" that the guy posting on OWC as "Duffs" was not in fact who he claimed to be (Duffy's Da). Pathetic, really...

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You're actually combining two arguments - the compensation one and the 'defection' one.

My arguments were not petty, although I suppose there may be an element of humour somewhere in there. Indeed, while most posters (including my fellow Donegal man, fhtb) were up in arms about the FAI's perceived 'poaching' of Duffy and others, I raised the point that the players who defected were free to and did make first contact with the FAI and I pointed to evidence which clearly shows this to be the case. The only 'refutation' I got was the outcry that Liam Brady had been in contact with Duffy (which was after Duffy and others had contacted the FAI) and the fact that after a trial with Seán McCaffrey's 17s, he continued to play for NI.

In both the argument over compensation and 'defection', posters kept relying on a post from an anonymous character named 'duffs' and I suggested that such information is not something worthy of basing an argument on, since, for all we know 'duffs' could be anyone. I was hardly relying on this; au contraire, many OWC posters were. Perhaps they're the pathetic ones?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

P.S. You may not be aware of it, but one of the posters with whom you have had the strongest run-ins is actually a fellow Donegal man. However, unlike you, he supports a local club team (Harps), not one from another county (country?) at all...

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I certainly was aware. What point are you trying to make here EG? I know quite a few Donegal men who support Derry. Indeed, many of those who live close to the border do.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

You said it, Predator, "some" posters. In my experience (admittedly limited to a bare handful of MB's), every such forum has its share of "silly" posters, including this one.

Indeed, I have had exactly the same reaction here i.e. "what are you even doing on this Board?" etc. Imo, the proper reaction is to stand your ground and make your point (ideally without resorting to the sort of weak or "silly" argument you employ, when backed into a corner)

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It's tragic...

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Speaking of "silly", why can you not see that the likes of eg Norwood and Gibson are different in one crucial aspect, namely that Norwood has grandparents born within the jurisdiction of the Association he wishes to represent, whilst Gibson does not. The correct comparison with Norwood should be the likes of James McCarthy, or your beloved Shane Duffy, both of whom comply with the (ancestral/residential) eligibility requirements imposed on every other single footballer on the planet who wishes to represent an Association within whose jurisdiction he was not born.

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We have a different interpretation of FIFA's rules.

We'll see the CAS appeal goes and whether or not FIFA change their rules.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

As for the de facto sectarian nature of the FAI's recruitment policy, as every new case of defection emerges, the incontrovertible fact that they are exclusively from the Nationalist/Catholic community, combined with the equally incontrovertible evidence of the FAI being prepared to make the first approach, points ever more directly to the point that they are only offering opportunities to one community in NI.

Which, considering the FAI's deceit over "not making the first approach", makes sense i.e. if they were to approach promising youngsters from the Unionist/Protestant community, they would risk being turned down flat, and their activities being exposed for all to see.

Still, we're the bigots in all this...

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Calling the nature of the FAI's recruitment policy 'de facto sectarian' is ridiculous. You might as well be calling any player from NI who wishes to play for the Republic sectarian. If you want to talk about real sectarianism, we can and it's certainly got nothing to do with the FAI's recruitment policy.

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In both the argument over compensation and 'defection', posters kept relying on a post from an anonymous character named 'duffs' and I suggested that such information is not something worthy of basing an argument on, since, for all we know 'duffs' could be anyone. I was hardly relying on this; au contraire, many OWC posters were. Perhaps they're the pathetic ones?

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Sounds like it could have progressed into a 'I am Spartacus' moment.

whoops, missed that geysir

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Originally Posted by SkStu

i think this would capture the diversity of Northern Ireland and its people

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You're way behind the programme, Stu, waaaaaaaaaaaaaay behind.

You see, Dana was subsequently the singer and co-writer of our Official 1982 World Cup Song, a rousing ditty entitled "Yer Man" - though her Official Website makes no reference to it, surprisingly enough! :D
http://www.dana-music.com/

P.S. Dana's song (starting, from memory, with the line: "When Yer Man gets the Ball") should not be confused with this effort, which itself should not be confused with music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL3gZt2FXBU

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Originally Posted by SkStu

and sung by one of your own.

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Not quite - as Michael Caine would say, "Not a lot of people know" that Dana was actually born in London.
However, she was eligible to sing our World Cup song by virtue of her parents coming from NI - that was before some of you lot tried to poach her to be your President ;)

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Not quite - as Michael Caine would say, "Not a lot of people know" that Dana was actually born in London.
However, she was eligible to sing our World Cup song by virtue of her parents coming from NI - that was before some of you lot tried to poach her to be your President

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i actually saw that about her being born in London (on wikipedia when i was researching where she was actually from) and i thought that was even more appropriate considering well, y'know, you all want to be Brits n that ;)

So who better then, than Dana, to bring a divided state together..... :peace: :note:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

As for the de facto sectarian nature of the FAI's recruitment policy, as every new case of defection emerges, the incontrovertible fact that they are exclusively from the Nationalist/Catholic community, combined with the equally incontrovertible evidence of the FAI being prepared to make the first approach, points ever more directly to the point that they are only offering opportunities to one community in NI.

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Yet more meandering drivel passed off as fact. The FAI has a reputation of approaching and capping anybody with a pair of football boots and a pulse, regardless of their background. The FAI didn't think twice about capping Alan Kernaghan now did they?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Which, considering the FAI's deceit over "not making the first approach", makes sense i.e. if they were to approach promising youngsters from the Unionist/Protestant community, they would risk being turned down flat, and their activities being exposed for all to see.

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Deceit? The FAI regularly has scouts at NI underage internationals. You can't miss them. There're the ones with the letters FAI scribbled all over their jackets. They've nothing to hide and they are doing nothing wrong. As long as those born in NI aren't tied to the NI senior side, they are as much the FAI's players as they are the IFA's players. In fact the IFA is now functioning as a feeder association for the FAI. Get use to it.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Still, we're the bigots in all this...

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If you insist....

It's a wrap now, the Belfast Telegraph has concluded its online poll

Poll: Northern Ireland eligibility row
Should footballers born in Northern Ireland be free to play for the Republic?
Yes 54%
No 46%

Belfast Telegraph info
Unlike its London-based stablemate The Independent, the Belfast Telegraph is conservative in outlook. In the context of Northern Irish politics, the Belfast Telegraph attempts to attract readers from across the community, though it is decidedly moderate unionist in outlook

After the failure of the concerted attempt by the OWC to rig the poll, it is predictable that any significance will be demeaned by them post event. I suppose there must be thousands of enemies of the OWC sitting at their computer all day cleaning cookies while the ordinary decent OWC supporter is out helping old ladies cross the road.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

You said it, Predator, "some" posters. In my experience (admittedly limited to a bare handful of MB's), every such forum has its share of "silly" posters, including this one.

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But it's always harder to stomach when the "silly" posters are the ones running the place. :)

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As for the de facto sectarian nature of the FAI's recruitment policy, as every new case of defection emerges, the incontrovertible fact that they are exclusively from the Nationalist/Catholic community, combined with the equally incontrovertible evidence of the FAI being prepared to make the first approach, points ever more directly to the point that they are only offering opportunities to one community in NI.

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Outrageous. Moderators?...

In seriousness though, what a ridiculous accusation. Socio-cultural factors and the landscape of Northern Irish society will naturally dictate that those you find to be declaring for Ireland will, almost wholly, be from a nationalist background. It's self-evident; really very simple. Any dope could tell you that. No need to pretend there's some sinister "poaching" policy to create "football apartheid in Ireland" at play here unless you're trying to make some cheap political point. The same FAI were still governing Irish football back when Ulster Protestant, Alan Kernaghan, lined out for Ireland, you know?

Out of interest, where is this "incontrovertible evidence"? Maybe it does exist; I genuinely don't know.

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Which, considering the FAI's deceit over "not making the first approach", makes sense i.e. if they were to approach promising youngsters from the Unionist/Protestant community, they would risk being turned down flat, and their activities being exposed for all to see.

Still, we're the bigots in all this...

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What are you talking about? What deceit? Do the FAI officially claim that they don't make a "first approach"? Maybe they do in some cases; maybe they don't in others. Maybe word filters through middle parties, interest is reciprocated and then comes a mutual agreement. As for Shane Duffy, it was my understanding that he long wanted to play for Ireland before the FAI ever got their act together and decided to facilitate his wishes. Besides, why is it even all that relevant who approaches who first? Is it possible you might have to face up to some uncomfortable truths if it were the players who were showing an initiative in these cases so you adamantly maintain that it can't possibly be the case, ever? There's no coercion involved in all of this, you'll be pleased to here; your lads are in good hands. :rolleyes: The player's are offered a choice. Some will take it; some won't. I find the continuing tabloidesque characterisation of the FAI as some sort of vicious child predator on the prowl throughout the land of innocence truly laughable by this stage.

The whole notion of the FAI refraining from contacting a Protestant player for fear of their "activities" might be "exposed" is just plain daft. What's to be exposed? Sure, how could they be so sure some Catholic lad wouldn't "blow the whistle" on them if they even were indeed up to anything shady? I just don't see exactly what the problem is in legitimately facilitating the wishes of northern-borns. Sorry. :)

Some good responses there people, especially our Northern posters.
Even EG's, if only for the comedic 'paranoia' in his response.
Though small beer compared to our favourite MB elsewhere.

Am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with the FAI approaching only Catholic/nationalists? What seems to be common sense to me appears to be nothing short of pure evil to some NI supporters.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

P.S. You may not be aware of it, but one of the posters with whom you have had the strongest run-ins is actually a fellow Donegal man. However, unlike you, he supports a local club team (Harps), not one from another county (country?) at all...

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Just on this, the city of Derry is as much - if not more so - a locale for much of the population of north-east Donegal as Ballybofey is. This rings especially true for those residing in Inishowen where the distant and seemingly insignificant Ballybofey would rarely even register on their consciousness. Other than maybe when their local club, Derry City, happens to be playing Finn Harps. :)

I'm not sure what sort of point you're trying to make though. Is it an attack on Predator or fhtb, who goes one step further on what you seem to be finding fault with Predator over; he actually supports, not a team from another country, but another country altogether? :confused: Not that I could care, personally, but there appears to be an inconsistency in your point there.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with the FAI approaching only Catholic/nationalists? What seems to be common sense to me appears to be nothing short of pure evil to some NI supporters.

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Just go for the whole lot and take anyone who's up for playing. Then their bigots can't make their ridiculous claim of 'sectarianism'. Am surprised they can even spell it, let alone know what it means.....

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Is it an attack on Predator or fhtb, who goes one step further on what you seem to be finding fault with Predator over; he actually supports, not a team from another country, but another country altogether?

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Hmm, assuming they are a 'country'. Anyway some of that crowd are the masters of Hypocrisy. Leave them to it!

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Deceit? The FAI regularly has scouts at NI underage internationals. You can't miss them. There're the ones with the letters FAI scribbled all over their jackets. They've nothing to hide and they are doing nothing wrong. As long as those born in NI aren't tied to the NI senior side, they are as much the FAI's players as they are the IFA's players. In fact the IFA is now functioning as a feeder association for the FAI. Get use to it.
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I very much doubt this is true. The FAI in almost all cases do not make the first approach (Brian Kerr most likely did approach Chris Baird). The scouts thing is most likely paranoia. Any RoI based scouts at NI underage games are almost certainly scouting for cross channel clubs.

Take whoever wants to play for us. If they see their allegiance with us then that is enough for me. N.I. are bitter and very pi**ed off. I would be of a similar mindset if I was in their position; but the truth is, I am not and thank god for that. Take every last bleeding one of them.

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Originally Posted by gspain

I very much doubt this is true. The FAI in almost all cases do not make the first approach (Brian Kerr most likely did approach Chris Baird). The scouts thing is most likely paranoia. Any RoI based scouts at NI underage games are almost certainly scouting for cross channel clubs.

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Is it not better to encourage the OWC paranoia as it will serve to attract more players to us?

It is clear to anyone willing to step back and look at this objectively that players supposedly poached from NI haven't been poached at all. NI born players that want to play for us have made known their desire to do so and the FAI has acted accordingly. At the end of the day, all the FAI is offering these players is a chance to play international football. This is exactly what the IFA is offering these players. It is the players themselves that make the choice but apparently others chose to ignore this and wish to highlight this as evidence of the de facto sectarian nature in the FAI's recruitment policy.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

It is clear to anyone willing to step back and look at this objectively that players supposedly poached from NI haven't been poached at all. NI born players that want to play for us have made known their desire to do so and the FAI has acted accordingly. At the end of the day, all the FAI is offering these players is a chance to play international football. This is exactly what the IFA is offering these players. It is the players themselves that make the choice but apparently others chose to ignore this and wish to highlight this as evidence of the de facto sectarian nature in the FAI's recruitment policy.

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But who can they blame now then? For seeing the players as thinking beings making decisions on their own volition - could it possibly be?! - might expose some uncomfortable home truths, and we can't be having that, good Lord!

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

But who can they blame now then? For seeing the players as thinking beings making decisions on their own volition - could it possibly be?! - might expose some uncomfortable home truths, and we can't be having that, good Lord!

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Freedom of choice is not an ideal that sits easily with the North Koreans so while they're busy focusing on increased internet censorship and the IFA is focused on begging to CAS, I think the FAI should organise a summer training camp for all players playing with each and every NI underage squad. Let every player know that they are welcome regardless of their background and the door is always open for them (provided they are good enough) to play with us.