Robbie Keane

Thoroughly deserved too. A near flawless first half from Keane, Villa's best player by a mile. He seems to be playing between midfield and Bent, dropping deep, roaming wide and attacking the box. His touch and link play have been quality. That's as good a 45 mins as I've ever seen from him. Alan McAnally very impressed by him. Better than the 2002 version :)

Dunne doing well, Clark putting some tackles in in central / defensive midfield and keeping it simple - but not showing any signs he looks entirely comfortable on the ball. I thought initially that Given might have come for the ball that Dunne claimed for Newcastle's goal, or at least called for the ball to come through to him, but on second look it's not so clear.

"He seems to be playing between the midfield and Bent, dropping deep, roaming wide and attacking the box."

So good to see someone else appreciate Robbie's best position. If only Trap felt the same way. Swap Robbie for
Whelan in the Irish midfield and you'd get a million more options. He holds the ball superbly and nearly always
turns the move into an attack, then goes to support the attack.

Some of Robbie (and indeed Stephen Ireland's) link play was world class for Villa against Newcastle.
Robbie was a constant goal threat as a striker, four or five years ago. These days he is an out and out creator. If only Trap
would see the light.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

So good to see someone else appreciate Robbie's best position. If only Trap felt the same way. Swap Robbie for
Whelan in the Irish midfield and you'd get a million more options. He holds the ball superbly and nearly always
turns the move into an attack, then goes to support the attack.

Some of Robbie (and indeed Stephen Ireland's) link play was world class for Villa against Newcastle.
Robbie was a constant goal threat as a striker, four or five years ago. These days he is an out and out creator. If only Trap
would see the light.

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Robbie's best position is not, and never will be, centre mid in a 4-4-2. He would be completely lost in that position. Seriously.

As for being an out-and-out creator, he's scored three goals in four games for Villa NOT from centre midfield, but playing as a deep lying forward. He does that for Ireland occasionally too, but, what with his goals, he seems to be doing fine playing off the centre backs. Hard to understand where you're coming from with that.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

So good to see someone else appreciate Robbie's best position. If only Trap felt the same way.

Robbie was a constant goal threat as a striker, four or five years ago. These days he is an out and out creator.

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Hence his goal today, attacking the 6 yard box?

I actually had your recent comments in mind when posting my earlier post. In no way can you call what Robbie played today a midfield role.

He could easily be the "1" in a 4-3-1-2 but that necessitates a solid midfield 3 with neither McGeady nor Duff starting, and with the width coming from our full backs. That ain't ever gonna happen while some of our best players are wide players.

He could also be the withdrawn 1 in a 4-4-1-1 but then again, that's what he often does for us anyway. The way I saw it today Keane had license to find space wherever he saw it in the final third. He pretty much has that license under Trap. Unfortunately nobody else seems to have the eye for goal that Keane has for us.

But yes, some of his link play today was superb.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Robbie's best position is not, and never will be, centre mid in a 4-4-2. He would be completely lost in that position. Seriously.

As for being an out-and-out creator, he's scored three goals in four games for Villa NOT from centre midfield, but playing as a deep lying forward. He does that for Ireland occasionally too, but, what with his goals, he seems to be doing fine playing off the centre backs. Hard to understand where you're coming from with that.

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"He's scored three goals in four games for Villa NOT from centre midfield, but playing as a deep lying forward" That's exactly what I'm talking about a deep lying forward - ie top of the diamond. If Whelan was the player Keane is, he would have pushed on and played top of the diamond, but you can't put a square peg .......

Look I've seen Robbie receive the ball just past the center circle for Spurs and Ireland and run at defences - seen this enough times in the last few years to know that this is now his best position. He doesn't have the lightning speed anymore to be an out and out striker. Put him behind Walters and Doyle or Long when playing for his country.

You say: "Hard to understand where you're coming from with that." To me it's absolutely amazing that you can't see it.

He doesn't have lightning speed but on today's evidence he can still attack the box well and link play well in and around the box. But that's largely how he's always been. Whelan is a totally different type of player altogether, a far more traditional central midfielder.

So, you play Keane behind Walters and Doyle - not a bad suggestion in itself, makes perfect sense - but who are the other 3? Assuming a standard back 4 of course.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

"He seems to be playing between the midfield and Bent, dropping deep, roaming wide and attacking the box."

So good to see someone else appreciate Robbie's best position. If only Trap felt the same way. Swap Robbie for
Whelan in the Irish midfield and you'd get a million more options.

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Playing well in a position between centre-midfield and the striker does not equal playing well in centre-midfield itself.

Lose the center-midfield notion. It's top of the diamond playing behind the front two.

And like Stuttgart suggests, let him operate in a free role for Ireland.

McGeady, Duff and either McCarthy or Andrews.

Having said that I think Stephen Hunt should be billeted in the Irish midfield for the opener against Croatia.
I could see him doing an excellent man marking job on Modric.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

McGeady, Duff and either McCarthy or Andrews.

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That's where I struggle to agree with you. I think the "3" needs to be more solid than that, and certainly needs an out-and-out midfield anchor (especially with Duff and McG). I'm not sure we have one.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

That's where I struggle to agree with you. I think the "3" needs to be more solid than that, and certainly needs an out-and-out midfield anchor (especially with Duff and McG). I'm not sure we have one.

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Yeah, I'm not sure we do either. The only one who comes to mind is Clark. But the Euros will likely come too soon for him.

The general point on Keane is that I think he would change our whole dynamic if he was played as a creative midfielder. Gone would be the days of us fearing to pass the ball through the middle of the park and opting to hit it long from defence.

That's the theory anyway. It may not work out that way in practice - it would probably have had to been tried out before now in order to work. I just think of the way Russia ran through us like water. Had we been able to play the ball through the middle it would have changed the whole complex of the game(s).In the final analysis we're going to need to hold possession in Poland or it won't be pretty.

While we can't hope to compete with Spain in the possession game we have a chance against the other two.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

You say: "Hard to understand where you're coming from with that." To me it's absolutely amazing that you can't see it.

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You essentially said his best position was centre mid - you've since cleared it up mind, but your initial statement is quite different from 'tip of a diamond' stuff. :)

Not against the idea, Robbie famously dropped deep in Bari to good effect. But Robbie has played like that fairly often in his career to both good effect and bad - I recall Redknapp playing him deep with anonymous effect for a period a few years back.

Nevertheless he obviously has the intelligence and ability to play football like that. The problem is not simply playing Robbie there for Ireland however - he has to play quite far forward because Ireland rely on counter-attacking with pace, playing the ball direct from back to front and getting wingers up in support of Keane and Doyle/whoever asap.

Playing Robbie in behind would be a complete refit of Trap's brand of football. Worth exploring sure, but one which would nullify our width and turning us into a side looking to play ball to feet and with a midfield playing high up the field at all times. Would out midfield be able to sustain it? Hard to know. Do we have the quality of midfielder to do it? Seems unlikely to me. Robbie, and Duff, are country miles ahead of the others in terms of intelligence and technique.

Just look at Villa for instance - Robbie has proved himself to be by a distance the cleverest player in the team. But he alone hasn't prevented them from losing games or looking ridiculously pourous in midfield. And this is when playing as essentially a deep lying forward in a modified 4-4-1-1. Which would be farther forward than you suggest playing him.

Regardless it's by no means a slam dunk. Just because Robbie has great intelligence and ability doesn't mean he would be best employed in a position would runs completely contrary to the team that's been developed over a two year period.

Particuarly since Robbie in the Ireland team currently is doing a pretty effective job up top.

Also - I'd generally be a bit iffy about any development which took Robbie farther away from goal. It's important to point out while he's dropping deep at Villa, he IS playing quite far forward, linking with Bent, Ireland and N'Zogbia and getting into the box at will. Playing him behind two out-and-out strikers means he'd have to play far deeper for the team to have any defensive shape.

Finally I really don't think a side like Ireland can afford to give anyone, not even a talent like Robbie, a 'free role'. We defend from the front, as we should, given our limitations. Playing as an attacking midfielder, Robbie would inevitably get tangled up battling a DM, tracking back, rather than popping up between the lines imo.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

That's the theory anyway. It may not work out that way in practice - it would probably have had to been tried out before now in order to work. I just think of the way Russia ran through us like water. Had we been able to play the ball through the middle it would have changed the whole complex of the game(s).In the final analysis we're going to need to hold possession in Poland or it won't be pretty.

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Russia didn't simply pass through us because we didn't have a creative presence, they passed through us thanks to a combination of midfield line ill-discipline, too little athleticism in midfield and poor performance from Glenn Whelan.

Playing Robbie as an attacking midfielder might allow him to link play better but every single player will have to play with the ball on the deck and farther up the pitch. I'm just not sure we could sustain it.

Would need a friendly to see for sure but on the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing Robbie behind one striker playing slightly deeper. It wouldn't be a million miles from how we play at the moment but slightly more narrow with the front two, allowing Robbie to bring the wingers into play higher up the pitch and link better with CM. It wouldn't require a total remodification, just slight tweaking.

Fair points all of them. Maybe my optimism at seeing him perform for Villa is getting in the way of reality.

I thought he was outstanding in the first half. Didn't see the 2nd half. Villa need him full time.

I agree with what most of you are saying. People need to realise we're going to be playing Italy and Spain and no matter what tactics or players are used, they are going to control the game against us and have most of the possession. We will have to play with two holding midfielders, and try to utilise the wide men to counter attack and get Robbie Keane to try and link play up, or alternatively play him off a target man like Doyle or Walters. We're never going to be able to outplay the big teams of Europe, so it's important that we maximise the things that we do well (i.e. be organised, be determined, be hard to beat).

It was the proverbial game of two halves where Robbie looked majestic in the 1st half and Villa were cráp in the 2nd half.
Why was Ireland taken off at half time? Even if he was at fault for Newcastle's first, he was about Villa's only other clued on player on how to play with the ball on the ground. In the 2nd half, Villa's tactics were easily disrupted by the opposition, they ended up wastefully lumping it forward with Robbie in no man's land.
Trap's right about Clark, he's a centre half. Worringly, Dunne is starting to look very old.

I can see (not prophetically though) Robbie dropping deeper for us, but he's more a natural at finding positions to receive the ball in the last 1/4. I don't see the same natural positioning play from him around the midfield spot in his own half. Duff for instance, is a better proposition to receive the ball there.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Why was Ireland taken off at half time?

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Apparently he swore at Alan Pardew during the first half and McLeish hauled him off possibly because Ireland had a go at him too, at HT.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

McGeady, Duff and either McCarthy or Andrews.

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If Trapattoni ever starts a match with that midfield, I'll eat my hat. I recently lost my hat.

If he were to play Keane as a fantasista, he'd play three central midfielders - like Whelan, Andrews and Gibson - behind him. I don't think it's a bad idea, but then I would find it tough to drop Duff, McGeady and Hunt like that.

If Fifa banned(and you never know they might) us from playing all or any of our wingers (and god bless us we're not short of them) then Trap might play Robbie behind one or two strikers but I think it would probably take something that drastic for it to happen !