NI boss targets Republic's Gibson

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Originally Posted by Absinthe

As opposed to this bastian of enlightened thinking, where half the posters won't even type "Northern Ireland".

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Northern Ireland, Norn Iron, NI, Ulster, the six countries etc etc what's the correct phrase to use? :)

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Originally Posted by SuperDave

i wish i was proud of the team, but the fact that there are so many bigots in the crowd and the ifa seem to be doing to little to try to counteract the attitude (and it would be a big ****king start if they confiscated union jacks and other symbols of britishness, not to mention the national anthem) means i find it impossible.

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Dave,

Would it be fair to say that bigots exist amongst the Republic Of Ireland crowd too?

Whilst it flies in no "official" capacity at Northern Ireland matches, the Union Flag is the flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - not my flag of choice at a Northern Ireland game, but facts are facts.

GSTQ, whilst not my preferred choice of "anthem" at Northern Ireland games, is the National Anthem of the United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - again, that is a fact.

I respect totally that you do not identify as British in any shape or form.

Can I ask, if Northern Ireland (the IFA) adopted a neutral flag and new "sporting" anthem for their games, would you support Northern Ireland?

Or, is it the case that you will never support Northern Ireland simply because to do so would give credance to the state of Northern Ireland?

Is you fundamenmtal objection simply to the existance of Northern Ireland?

Thanks in anticipation.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Northern Ireland, Norn Iron, NI, Ulster, the six countries etc etc what's the correct phrase to use? :)

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Not six countries, just one. :)

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Originally Posted by Absinthe

Not six countries, just one. :)

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Very good :D

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Originally Posted by Absinthe

As opposed to this bastian of enlightened thinking, where half the posters won't even type "Northern Ireland".

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i think if you are honest with yourself you can admit that there are far more balanced viewpoints on here than OWC. yes there are some extreme views in both directions but there are loads of liberals on this site too.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Can I ask, if Northern Ireland (the IFA) adopted a neutral flag and new "sporting" anthem for their games, would you support Northern Ireland?

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I think a whole generation of young 'nationalists' in NI would, which is what the IFA should be considering.

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Originally Posted by eelmonster

I think a whole generation of young 'nationalists' in NI would, which is what the IFA should be considering.

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Do you honestly believe that "a whole generation of young nationalists" would swap their allegiance to the Republic Of Ireland team, in favour of supporting Northern Ireland if such changes were made?

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Here's a post by Ealing Green on the 2nd September, which still rings true -


This is what people seem to fail to realise - Fifa/Uefa are the only ones who will decide if Gibson and others in a similar situation.

Whether the player wants to play for Northern Ireland or not, whether they feel they are not represented by GSTQ and the respective flag,whether they "feel" Irish or not........related to this issue, these things are not relevant.

Fifa/Uefa may decide that it should be a right of all citizens to play for their country, or they may decide that citizenship alone will not allow all citizens to play for that country unless they meet other criteria.

If the decision they make breaks a law which overrides it, the decision will surely be appealed to that higher law.

If not, the decision will stand.

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Orusan, its still goes back to my point, why bother having a legal departement and lawyers if its simple a case of "we decide" thats it. Its there for a reason and people who dont realise this are even more stupid. They have a legal department to ensure everything is legally bound, bound to who is the real question though.

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And yes, Ruaidhri is Irish. So am I, and im very proud to be so. Still doenst make me eligible for the Republic of Ireland football team.

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Help me out here, British Irish? there cant be two countries making up the one nationality. Scottish people cant be English and vice versa. This is the ideology I really fail to understand. I am Irish, Irish-Irish, Irish-Irish-Irish. Irish, Irish Irish-Irish,Irish-Irish Irish and finally Irish. Be interesting to see who understands the latter.

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Do you honestly believe that "a whole generation of young nationalists" would swap their allegiance to the Republic Of Ireland team, in favour of supporting Northern Ireland if such changes were made?

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I do. I certainly know the majority of my mates from there would. I also know they find it hard to fully feel a connection to ROI, but their dislike for Norn Iron natoinal team and all it represent(s/ed) is stronger, therefore they support Celtic!! Its like their national team.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Help me out here, British Irish? there cant be two countries making up the one nationality. Scottish people cant be English and vice versa. This is the ideology I really fail to understand. I am Irish, Irish-Irish, Irish-Irish-Irish. Irish, Irish Irish-Irish,Irish-Irish Irish and finally Irish. Be interesting to see who understands the latter.

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Do you understand "Irish American"?

Let me explain.

English/British
Scottish/British
Welsh/British
Irish/ British

All part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Proudly Irish and British.

I fully understand that you are Irish.

I would refer you to, the much flaunted on this thread, GFA.;)

Irish American and Irish-British are certainly not the same thing.

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Proudly Irish and British.

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So what exactly makes you Irish, and what exactly makes you British and then assuming both are not mutually exclusive they must be associative and how so?

I would like to think so, yes - why not? I was thinking more about children and young people who hadn't yet pledged any 'allegiance'.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

I do. I certainly know the majority of my mates from there would. I also know they find it hard to fully feel a connection to ROI, but their dislike for Norn Iron natoinal team and all it represent(s/ed) is stronger, therefore they support Celtic!! Its like their national team.

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"All that it represents"?:confused:

It represents the state of Northern Ireland.

So - are you telling me that your mates would support "all that it represents", just so long as we didn't fly the Ulster Banner and play GSTQ at our matches?

Are you telling me that you believe that a sizeable number of people from Northern Ireland who "support" the Republic Of Ireland team, are not, in fact, totally at ease in their "support"?

Seems odd that they adopt Celtic as a quasi national team - Celtic are a club based in Scotland. Scotland is an integral part of the United Kingdom, albeit with close historical ties to this island:confused:

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Originally Posted by eelmonster

I would like to think so, yes - why not? I was thinking more about children and young people who hadn't yet pledged any 'allegiance'.

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That's interesting.

The concept of "a whole generation of young nationalists" supporting a team representing the state of Northern Ireland is very difficult to believe.

I wish it were true....but I suspect that the whole concept of Irish "nationalism" evolves around a desire to see an end to the state of Northern Ireland.:confused:

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Irish American and Irish-British are certainly not the same thing.

So what exactly makes you Irish, and what exactly makes you British and then assuming both are not mutually exclusive they must be associative and how so?

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What makes us Irish is being born on the Island of Ireland.
What make us British is being born in the UK.

Wheres the confusion in that? That is how I have always felt, the GFA doesnt come into it, neither does owning a passport.

I will actually be getting an Irish passport within the next year.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

So what exactly makes you Irish, and what exactly makes you British and then assuming both are not mutually exclusive they must be associative and how so?

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Irish by birthright.

Born in Belfast, Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland forms part of the island of Ireland.

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom.

It's not really that complicated.

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So - are you telling me that your mates would support "all that it represents", just so long as we didn't fly the Ulster Banner and play GSTQ at our matches?

Are you telling me that you believe that a sizeable number of people from Northern Ireland who "support" the Republic Of Ireland team, are not, in fact, totally at ease in their "support"?

Seems odd that they adopt Celtic as a quasi national team - Celtic are a club based in Scotland. Scotland is an integral part of the United Kingdom, albeit with close historical ties to this island

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Yes.

No, "at ease", is not what I said, but a full associated connection to the team, is definitely not there from what I have noticed - and again thats just with the people I have encountered ( friends and people I have met ), not branding everyone in the same way. I used to drink in a pub in North London that was the celtic pub of north london and it got a hell of a lot of Northerners, who I would categorise most to be in this section. They certainly werent there for the "Ireland" matches anyhow!

I know, but from afar its what they grew up on.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

That's interesting.

The concept of "a whole generation of young nationalists" supporting a team representing the state of Northern Ireland is very difficult to believe.

I wish it were true....but I suspect that the whole concept of Irish "nationalism" evolves around a desire to see an end to the state of Northern Ireland.:confused:

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What you dont take into account here is that people will be labelled as Nationalists if they vote for either Sein Fein or the SDLP.

Life is not so simple, as this does not reflect whether they would vote to dissolve the the border or not if pushed on the issue. I know plenty of Catholics who would vote to keep the border, yet vote for the SDLP in elections. I also know Protestants who would vote to dissolve the border, and one in particular who has chosen to move to the Republic to live, simply because he just wanted to. i.e. wasnt for a job, or a girl etc.....

(They would now be eligible for the ROI football team, but you wouldnt want him, hes gash.)

But who knows what will happen in the future. With ever increasing voter apathy anything is possible.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

That's interesting.

The concept of "a whole generation of young nationalists" supporting a team representing the state of Northern Ireland is very difficult to believe.

I wish it were true....but I suspect that the whole concept of Irish "nationalism" evolves around a desire to see an end to the state of Northern Ireland.:confused:

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I thought nationalist would be a less crude signifier. Who's to say the nation isn't a Northern Irish nation.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Irish by birthright.

Born in Belfast, Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland forms part of the island of Ireland.

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom.

It's not really that complicated.

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It is really, why? Because it all depends on what "the" definition of Irish is.

Not yours, and not necessarily mine.

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Originally Posted by Absinthe

What you dont take into account here is that people will be labelled as Nationalists if they vote for either Sein Fein or the SDLP.

Life is not so simple, as this does not reflect whether they would vote to dissolve the the border or not if pushed on the issue. I know plenty of Catholics who would vote to keep the border, yet vote for the SDLP in elections. I also know Protestants who would vote to dissolve the border, and one in particular who has chosen to move to the Republic to live, simply because he just wanted to. i.e. wasnt for a job, or a girl etc.....

(They would now be eligible for the ROI football team, but you wouldnt want him, hes gash.)

But who knows what will happen in the future. With ever increasing voter apathy anything is possible.

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I understand all of that.

I still find it hard to comprehend that "a whole generation of young nationalists" would opt to support Northern Ireland, solely on account of the IFA changing a flag and anthem.

I think the greatest fear of many is actually a pluralist Northern Ireland, at peace with itself, within a Union that is providing prosperity for all the people of Northern Ireland.

This is reflected in football - the idea of players from both communities coming together with a common purpose - ie. doing their very best for Northern Ireland - is something that many people resent.

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Originally Posted by eelmonster

I thought nationalist would be a less crude signifier. Who's to say the nation isn't a Northern Irish nation.

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That would be fantastic.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

It is really, why? Because it all depends on what "the" definition of Irish is.

Not yours, and not necessarily mine.

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Not sure what you mean?:confused:

What I know is that I am Irish and British.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I understand all of that.

I still find it hard to comprehend that "a whole generation of young nationalists" would opt to support Northern Ireland, solely on account of the IFA changing a flag and anthem.

I think the greatest fear of many is actually a pluralist Northern Ireland, at peace with itself, within a Union that is providing prosperity for all the people of Northern Ireland.

This is reflected in football - the idea of players from both communities coming together with a common purpose - ie. doing their very best for Northern Ireland - is something that many people resent.

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A whole generation is overstating it. But as I have said before on OWC, and here, I am all personally all for changing the National Anthem, and replacing the flag.

They should at least try and represent the country as a whole, not just the majority of it.

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Originally Posted by Absinthe

A whole generation is overstating it. But as I have said before on OWC, and here, I am all personally all for changing the National Anthem, and replacing the flag.

They should at least try and represent the country as a whole, not just the majority of it.

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I too am supportive of such changes.

I have kept out of this thread recently (cheers all round, no doubt!), since I have said my piece and am content to wait for FIFA's final determination, due imminently.

If the decision goes against the IFA, then I, for one, shall accept it and get on with supporting NI.

But if it should go against the FAI, I am more persuaded than ever of the folly of the FAI enlisting the assistance of Government or political figures in any attempt to frustrate, deny or overrule FIFA (as some "barrack room lawyers" on this site have advocated).

At last weekend's Meeting of FIFA's Associations Committee, they expressed great concern about political interference in the running of certain National Associations, with the Kuwait FA now being suspended from FIFA for just that reason:
"Kuwait - Contrary to the road map established by FIFA and the AFC, the Kuwaiti Public Authority for Youth and Sport has continued to interfere. Elections were held on 9 October in direct violation of the FIFA Executive Committee's May 2007 decision to the contrary. As a consequence, the committee recommend to the FIFA Executive Committee that the Kuwait Football Association be suspended"
http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/federa...ciples+members

This is by no means the first time FIFA have suspended, or even expelled a Member Association on the grounds of external political interference.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

I have kept out of this thread recently (cheers all round, no doubt!), since I have said my piece and am content to wait for FIFA's final determination, due imminently.

If the decision goes against the IFA, then I, for one, shall accept it and get on with supporting NI.

But if it should go against the FAI, I am more persuaded than ever of the folly of the FAI enlisting the assistance of Government or political figures in any attempt to frustrate, deny or overrule FIFA (as some "barrack room lawyers" on this site have advocated).

At last weekend's Meeting of FIFA's Associations Committee, they expressed great concern about political interference in the running of certain National Associations, with the Kuwait FA now being suspended from FIFA for just that reason:
"Kuwait - Contrary to the road map established by FIFA and the AFC, the Kuwaiti Public Authority for Youth and Sport has continued to interfere. Elections were held on 9 October in direct violation of the FIFA Executive Committee's May 2007 decision to the contrary. As a consequence, the committee recommend to the FIFA Executive Committee that the Kuwait Football Association be suspended"
http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/federa...ciples+members

This is by no means the first time FIFA have suspended, or even expelled a Member Association on the grounds of external political interference.

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Let's not get ahead of ourselves. :D

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Originally Posted by lopez

LOL. A Welshman lecturing us on people with no connections declaring for other countries. In a 'footballing' sense, how did those players declare for Wales in the past with no Welsh connections? Don't know their names off hand, but the black bloke who played against in 1991 at Wrexham for starters. I know NI have picked a few non connected, but in the 90s you went completely overboard.

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If you can't name their names, don't make the point. Why bother making a point if you can't back it up? Saying 'the black bloke who played in Wrexham in 1991 for starters' is not giving us much of a clue.

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Originally Posted by lopez

What? Do you 'Republic of France' or the 'Republic of South Africa'. When you get your independence, you can come back and lecture us on sovereignty, citizenship and international agreements. :cool:

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It's got nothing to do with independence or sovreignty. The name of the football team is 'the Republic of Ireland'. That is, to differentiate from Northern Ireland, also an international football team. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Cymro

If you can't name their names, don't make the point. Why bother making a point if you can't back it up? Saying 'the black bloke who played in Wrexham in 1991 for starters' is not giving us much of a clue.

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Think he might be referring to Eric Young:

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Eric won 31 caps for Wales, for whom he qualified due to being born in Singapore but holding a British passport.

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And one thing struck me over the past week - related to the 2012 Olympics.

The IFA are dead against letting their players turn out for the U-23 side at the London Olympics.

You would have thought they'd jump at the chance to play for a Great Britain football team...

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I think the greatest fear of many is actually a pluralist Northern Ireland, at peace with itself, within a Union that is providing prosperity for all the people of Northern Ireland.

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I for one see that happening, as I said before money takes over after a while. Peoples values change. And with immigration it is going to "pluralise" quicker than normal as I have stated before.

I reckon most people from the 26 counties would not vote in favour for a United Ireland at this stage. In fact I would bet my house on it. The reason for this is because where I come from would have always been a staunch supporter of a United Ireland, but these days if you ask ppl down there they would say "what the fcuk would we want them for", mainly based on financial reasoning - even using the last sentence, yes!

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Help me out here, British Irish? there cant be two countries making up the one nationality. Scottish people cant be English and vice versa.

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But they can be British. Just like (some) Irish people.

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Originally Posted by Réiteoir

You would have thought they'd jump at the chance to play for a Great Britain football team...

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Why? Am I missing something?

We are Northern Ireland. I generally hope all the other home nations lose everytime they play.

Having said that, I extend my congratulations to Scotland for a their superb qualifying run, and they deserve to make it on the back of their victories against Italy and France.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

But they can be British. Just like (some) Irish people.

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Britain isn't a country, you are missing my point.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Here's a post by Ealing Green on the 2nd September, which still rings true -


This is what people seem to fail to realise - Fifa/Uefa are the only ones who will decide if Gibson and others in a similar situation.

Whether the player wants to play for Northern Ireland or not, whether they feel they are not represented by GSTQ and the respective flag,whether they "feel" Irish or not........related to this issue, these things are not relevant.

Fifa/Uefa may decide that it should be a right of all citizens to play for their country, or they may decide that citizenship alone will not allow all citizens to play for that country unless they meet other criteria.

If the decision they make breaks a law which overrides it, the decision will surely be appealed to that higher law.

If not, the decision will stand.

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Your reply -

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

Keep living in Japan san, that's all I can say. All the mercury in the fish must be doing things to your brain.

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Tuff Paddy, with your degree in law, and your years in the courtroom, tell me what points you disagree with from a legal point of view?

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Orusan, its still goes back to my point, why bother having a legal departement and lawyers if its simple a case of "we decide" thats it. Its there for a reason and people who dont realise this are even more stupid. They have a legal department to ensure everything is legally bound, bound to who is the real question though.

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Paul, I agree with all this, as I said -

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Originally Posted by osarusan

- Fifa/Uefa are the only ones who will decide if Gibson and others in a similar situation.

If the decision they make breaks a law which overrides it, the decision will surely be appealed to that higher law.

If not, the decision will stand.

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They have a legal department to ensure they comply with any laws which they need to comply with (what those laws are, or whose they are, if there even are any, I'm not sure)

And to whom they are legally bound is the big, and only, question.

What I'm saying is that the arguements that "I feel Irish" or "Northern Ireland doesn't represent me" or "it's up to the player to choose" are not relevant legally.

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Originally Posted by Réiteoir

Think he might be referring to Eric Young:

Eric won 31 caps for Wales, for whom he qualified due to being born in Singapore but holding a British passport.

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Ah right. You just reminded me of another ridiculous rule I loathe. If someone has a British passport but was not born in any of the home nations, they can choose which they want to play for. IMO eligibility should be based on heritage or birth, not passports. Which is also a reason I dislike the 'naturalisation' rule.

Even if it benefits us I still don't think it should be allowed to stand.

Yeah thats true, i think i remember hearing that haregraves could have played for Scot/Wales/N.Iron/England/Canada/Germany....Now thats a selection!

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Dave,

Would it be fair to say that bigots exist amongst the Republic Of Ireland crowd too?

Whilst it flies in no "official" capacity at Northern Ireland matches, the Union Flag is the flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - not my flag of choice at a Northern Ireland game, but facts are facts.

GSTQ, whilst not my preferred choice of "anthem" at Northern Ireland games, is the National Anthem of the United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - again, that is a fact.

I respect totally that you do not identify as British in any shape or form.

Can I ask, if Northern Ireland (the IFA) adopted a neutral flag and new "sporting" anthem for their games, would you support Northern Ireland?

Or, is it the case that you will never support Northern Ireland simply because to do so would give credance to the state of Northern Ireland?

Is you fundamenmtal objection simply to the existance of Northern Ireland?

Thanks in anticipation.

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firstly, my name isn't actually dave (see my sig).
The union flag represents a larger entity of which northern ireland is only a part. much like the tricolour represents a larger entity of which northern ireland is only a part, yet anyone with a tricolour at a northern ireland game would be torn limb from limb.
The same larger entity point also applies to the anthem of the island of ireland, amhrán na bhfainn. in relation to both above posts, it's the imperialist stance represented by both symbols that alienates nationalists.
You're right, I don't consider myself British and don't identify with Britishness in any way.
Yes, if the IFA had a more active cross community approach and dropped the flag and anthem, I would probably support them more. As it is, I think, being from the north, its fair to say they are my second team and I do like to see them do well, but in the present climate, I am unable to go to games.
I have another problem with the reluctance of the IFA to move away from windsor park, not to mention the fact not too many years ago they signed a 99 year lease or somesuch with linfield, one of the most actively bigotted sides in the world.
I'd agree that there are bigots on both sides of the border, but it's clear where the more vocal are. Look at the treatment of neil lennon. Death threats against your own players? Booing from a fair section of the fans? I know some republic fans boo rangers players, but i'd hazard a guess it's nowhere near the same percentage of fans as took umbrage against neil lennon.
I do have a problem with the imperialist claim made over a section of the island, but no problem with self determination of a minority. If the north wanted actual independence from the rest of the UK, I would probably be more in favour of it than the present situation, as I respect the right of self determination.
However, none of this is relevant to the Darren Gibson situation. As far as that's concerned, I think he should have to play for the north, as would I were I of sufficient quality (only in my dreams), but that's not really what you were debating, was it?

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Originally Posted by SuperDave

However, none of this is relevant to the Darren Gibson situation. As far as that's concerned, I think he should have to play for the north, as would I were I of sufficient quality (only in my dreams)

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Why is that? On what grounds?

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Originally Posted by SuperDave

firstly, my name isn't actually dave (see my sig).
The union flag represents a larger entity of which northern ireland is only a part. much like the tricolour represents a larger entity of which northern ireland is only a part, yet anyone with a tricolour at a northern ireland game would be torn limb from limb.
The same larger entity point also applies to the anthem of the island of ireland, amhrán na bhfainn.

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Um, the tricolour and "amran na bfan" represent the Republic of Ireland, not the whole island.

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Originally Posted by SuperDave

firstly, my name isn't actually dave (see my sig).
in relation to both above posts, it's the imperialist stance represented by both symbols that alienates nationalists.

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But the symbols don't represent an "imperialist stance": they represent the UK. And it's laughable for you to talk about "imperialist stances", given your above comments about the Southern flag and anthem representing the whole island!

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Originally Posted by SuperDave

firstly, my name isn't actually dave (see my sig).
Yes, if the IFA had a more active cross community approach and dropped the flag and anthem, I would probably support them more. As it is, I think, being from the north, its fair to say they are my second team and I do like to see them do well, but in the present climate, I am unable to go to games.

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Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by SuperDave

firstly, my name isn't actually dave (see my sig).
I have another problem with the reluctance of the IFA to move away from windsor park, not to mention the fact not too many years ago they signed a 99 year lease or somesuch with linfield, one of the most actively bigotted sides in the world.

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Given that the IFA is actively attempting to leave Windsor Park and has served notice to quite said lease, why have you made the above statement?

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Originally Posted by SuperDave

firstly, my name isn't actually dave (see my sig).
I'd agree that there are bigots on both sides of the border, but it's clear where the more vocal are. Look at the treatment of neil lennon. Death threats against your own players? Booing from a fair section of the fans?

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I think you should withdraw the allegation that NI fans issued death threats against Neil Lennon.

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Originally Posted by SuperDave

firstly, my name isn't actually dave (see my sig).
However, none of this is relevant to the Darren Gibson situation. As far as that's concerned, I think he should have to play for the north, as would I were I of sufficient quality (only in my dreams), but that's not really what you were debating, was it?

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Good.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Um, the tricolour and "amran na bfan" represent the Republic of Ireland, not the whole island.


But the symbols don't represent an "imperialist stance": they represent the UK. And it's laughable for you to talk about "imperialist stances", given your above comments about the Southern flag and anthem representing the whole island!


Fair enough.


Given that the IFA is actively attempting to leave Windsor Park and has served notice to quite said lease, why have you made the above statement?



I think you should withdraw the allegation that NI fans issued death threats against Neil Lennon.


Good.

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:D:rolleyes::p

yeah, i'm a five year old. live with it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/2208857.stm

[cough]