I was wondering with the articulate and intelligent writing form came from DI. I now realise and understand.
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I was wondering with the articulate and intelligent writing form came from DI. I now realise and understand.
Very interesting looking at the ratings in the RTE guide this week on ratings from a few weeks ago, The Six Nations match that week against Italy was top on the channel and top 5 on the network only behind the late late show and the voice. Non-Irish six nations matches made the top 10 on RTE 2 but the real interesting number was that the Ireland under 20 game versus France on a friday night made the rankings with 125,000 viewers. Which is frankly staggering for a juniors match, it shows how pervasive the rugby popularity in this country is and extends far beyond the marquee Ireland/Munster/Leinster games.
:sleepy::sleepy:Quote:
Originally Posted by Murfinator
im not sure i understand what you are getting at ET - its a fair point...
SkStu, I accept it was a stupid childish post but this thread becomes circular every 4 or 5 weeks. Murfinator comes on and says how much more popular rugby is than football. Many of us react to defend the beautiful game and then we repeat the process. It seems like its being going on for years and I'm just tired.
Perhaps we should have a rugby thread somewhere.
ah okay, i skipped forty-something pages of this thread and just recently ventured back in...
Wasn't the thread made for a popularity comparison between the two? It was contested previously that the Rugby popularity in Ireland was wafer thin with interest only in the glamour games and not really as rooted through the levels as soccer, thats the relevancy of the U20 popularity. I figured it'd surprise some people.Quote:
Originally Posted by EastTerracer
Sorry that you don't like it but if you don't have something constructive to add to the debate it'd probably be smart to not click the thread.
I was certainly not saying that the interest was wafer thin, though I did pick holes in the way you presented a previous round of viewing figures. The U20 figures were indeed impressive but I also thought the AskChili survey published in the Irish Times, and posted here, was interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Murfinator
Shane Horgan on Nathan Hines
"He is so annoying to play against. He is always in the wrong position, he’ll always be scragging someone back, he’ll always be irritating someone, lying on the wrong side. That’s what he does. It’s fine saying it’s illegal or whingeing about it but it’s those very traits that we loved having when he was playing for us."
In other words, it's OK to cheat?
Personally I think you do what you get away with within certain bounds of decency in both codes, but I bet this comment won't attract any attention anywhere, yet if Shay Given applauded Robbie Keane for diving it'd be pounced upon, just like Simon Cox's appealing for the Armenian GK's handball actually was.
I hate Shane Horgan...
Where is Murfinator now? No doubt he will be quiet.
The one thing is though with the examples you mentioned, collectively Hines traits in one game add up to quite a bit, but not game changing, keane diving or us getting a penalty or the armenian goal are all game changers really.
His block for Clermont's try against Ulster was game changing. In general, though, cheating in rugby is seen as an art. There are more grey areas but it's still a fact that cheating is accepted and encouraged.
Ya but look at Neil back years ago against Munster, that was another game changer but that was moaned and complained about in the irish media and english media at the time, and given good coverage.
But its kinda seen "as part of the game" alright, where as its a dirty side show in Football, that poisions and turns people away. Its bizzare really, i just think its down to the individual humans personality at the end of the day, but there are quite a large group of same thinking people unfortunately.
Apart from the part about grey areas, this could apply equally to football.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
With rugby, I think it's the part of the game people don't really acknowledge, and when it is highlighted, it's commended as tactical cleverness rather than derided as cheating. Accepting or embracing it as such is kind of a way of denying it or of, at least, ensuring unwanted attention will not be drawn to it, if that makes sense... I think it is a sense of denial or an unwillingness to admit that rugby players - who are, in reality, just the same as players of any professional sport - could possibly be cheats, and is similar to the more nuanced sense of denial that appears dominant within the English media with regard to diving in football.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I discussed this a bit in a piece I wrote on the English media's reaction to Ashley Young's dive against Aston Villa the other week here: http://backpagefootball.com/premier-...pretend-is-it/
I perceive a peculiar sense of English sanctimony when it comes to some admitting that diving is a part of English football. I see this denial as a veiled or casual form of xenophobia; English observers will admit it occurs, and maybe even its epidemic prevalence, but will blame foreigners or "outsiders" for its "creeping in". Of course, this is nonsense - cheating in English football isn't a "foreign" invention - so is it down to a cultural superiority complex; that cheating couldn't possibly be of English origin or, worse, inherent to sports of English origin, God forbid?!
What fuels this perception that cheating and diving is predominantly a football issue is the fact that essentially it is a non contact sport unlike rugby. Rugby players tend to only hit the deck when they are genuinely injured, while there is a lot of gamesmanship in football. I cop this image of football the whole time from Aussie Rules advocaters who see football players as being prima donnas, while due to the physical nature of rugby, they appreciate the spectacle more.
Football has got an image problem among followers of other sports and the big money and lifestyles associated with it, seems to reinforce this perception.
Football's authorities could do far more to address diving and play acting and general whingeing. Their inaction is lamentable.
wrt the contact sport bit, in rugby one of the objects of the game is to knock your opponent over. In football you're penalised for it. It's naive to think that if rugby players could gain advantage by pretending to have been knocked over (ahem, Marcus Horan) they wouldn't do it.
btw Tuesday and Wednesday's (UK) Independent letters page has had this very same debate.
DI you remind me of my brother, too much time on his hands, to read too much into things. Ah no I see where you are coming from.
I'd just put it down to good old british imperialism to be honest. I don't necessarily think its xenophobic. Its a form of arrogance.
It's not so much cheating as playing the ref. Some refs will allow tacklers to hold on a bit longer than others, whereas some will blow up instantly. Good teams and good players play to the refs interpretation of the laws.
You wouldn't want to see the ****e I could spout if only I had enough time on my hands! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Def agree but they might have to act soon. The African nations was a bit of a shambles where players were falling to the ground at a rate of every 5 minutes. Wasn't a great spectacle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
As regards rugby - I have seen Italian and French players diving in garryowen and other high ball situations
There's different forms of cheating though. In football, diving, feigning injury, rolling around like you've been shot, trying to get other players booked or sent off etc is despicable. It ruins the image of the game, makes the players look like pussies and cheats and is just a general turn off. There's no respect or honour in it. There isn't really a comparison in rugby as it's a full contact sport, so not much room for gamesmanship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Now if you compare that to say, pulling shirts during set pieces, handling the ball on the line to deny a goal or the last defender taking the attacker out and committing a professional foul, that's also cheating but it's acceptable IMO. And the guilty party is usually rewarded with a red card. Luis Suarez was given a rough time for handling the ball on the line against Ghana, but it was all a load of nonsense really. He did what he had to do, got sent off and Ghana bottled the penalty. It wasn't Suarez's fault that Ghana missed the penalty or that the poor African team didn't make a semi for the first time. You could also say that winding up opposition players verbally or giving a player digs off the ball is cheating, but again I think that's acceptable and part of the game. This is the kind of 'cheating' that also goes on in rugby, and to be fair it is an art form. You just have to make sure you don't get caught.
Football's problem is the gamesmanship, the diving and the feigning. If they can eradicate that it will be a great game again. Retrospective banning and straight red cards are the only way. Rugby is enjoying a purple patch at the moment here in Ireland, but that will only last as long as the success lasts. The working man does not grow up with rugby here - most grow up reared on GAA and Soccer as these are the local clubs in most parishes and towns. Yea, he might 'follow' rugby while the bandwagon is in full flow, but let's see if he'll stick around when the wheels start coming off. It's already happening here in Munster, the fair weather fans and glory hunters are dropping like flies!
Great to hear long may it last and continue, but i'm not sure it has 4tothefloor.
thats not cos i dont like rugby, i just hate the way people go on about it who dont really have a clue about anything.
I feel he was taken to task on his comments on the French abandoned match when he said that if it was a soccer match it would be a riot. If any soccer pundit said that the other way round, he wouldnt be let go so lightly.Quote:
Originally Posted by JGKyne
The same debate regarding soccer versus rugby has come alive again on boards.ie and from a rugby perspective. Worth a look!
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...5000269&page=4
If you've never seen a 200lb man dive like a beyotch in a rugby game, check out the Heineken Cup highlights tonight.
I missed that. What happened? I did notice Rougerie trying to switch balls, nicking a ball from the ball boy to take a quick throw and Stuart Barnes saying fair enough, you do what you can get away with, or you do what you gotta do in a semi-final. Not a biggy, in fact I agree.
Cracking game btw. I thought Leinster were better but only Man U usually get that kind of late break. Failing to ground the ball when comfortably over the line. Ouch!
It was a super tackle from D'Arcy, I think. He gets a lot of stick for his Ireland performances (not all of it unjustified) but he was immense today, silly penalty that should have seen him yellow-carded aside.
The incident was nothing. Cullen threw his hands in the direction of the Clermont prop as they tussled outside a ruck. You couldn't really call it a punch - it was more just a light hand-off to the face. The French player - a massive piece of meat - throws himself to the ground like he's been roundhoused. The referee might have punished Cullen if it hadn't been so ridiculous a fall.
Is this supposed to be a thinly veiled attack/dig at football fans? If it is well ive never seen football fans rip off other fans. However I have on 2 seperate occassions seen fellow Irish rugby fans try to rip off other fans. Does that not go against tradition.Quote:
And the good news is that anybody who wants to be at the final should be able to get there. Although last night's rising flight prices look set to bump up the cost, tickets are likely to change hands at face value -- as is the tradition amongst rugby fans -- and hotel prices will remain largely stable.
Clearly they've never looked beyond the fans forums - where touting is usually a banning offence - but one quick ebay search later: http://www.ebay.ie/sch/i.html?_from=...neken+cup+2012
Doubtless it'll be claimed that these sellers are not rugby fans.
there really is a form of inverted snobbery, elitism, amongst the Rugby fans.
At least with GAA fans, its just a "ah thats sh1te" attitude, whereas with rugby its a sly grin/smile like they are better than the rugby fan. I really noticed that over here where I've met most of these types from Cork and Dublin. Really cynical and snide remarks.
i think the statement would be true of all true sportsfans irrespective of the code. in all my years of wheeling and dealing with sports tickets only touts have ever tried to charge me over the face value.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
this doesnt relate to fans but rugby clubs are well known to charge well over face value for international and sometimes HC tickets also.
Ya and who makes up the clubs JB?
Soccer fans!
its the club adding "fees" onto the clubs allocated tickets they sell to the fans within the club rather than fans getting tickets and selling them onto other fans for above face value.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
this may / may not clear it up but i am not really sure what you are getting at. sorry
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Maybe they just don't like you?! The below is not aimed at yourself just a general thought .
As somebody who loves football and rugby I have met countless fans over the year from rugby, football and the GAA.
I can honestly say that I have met complete c**ts across all codes and vice versa.
THis idea of placing fans of certain sports all in the one bucket is a nonsense and a convenient excuse for certain types of people to justify their own prejudices.
I'm not disagreeing with that point, merely asserting a fact, which you have suggested "a convenient excuse for certain types of people to justify their own prejudices". So you see exactly the point I raised about the article mentioned.
It wasn't to me directly but mates trying to get the tickets.
I've never met a GAA fan who would rip you off either, but again I'm sure there are some and its down to the individual at the end of the day.
Where was the quote taken from Paul?
An article by mark hilliard of irish independent fame.
Fair enough I wasn't referring to your quote just a general comment on this thread and other similar threads that are going on, on rugby and Gaa forums etc. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea