Republic of Ireland V Sweden - Friday, 6th September 2013 - World Cup 2014 Qualifier

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Originally Posted by barney

Y

That doesn't mean we should just sit on our hands and wait for a similar crop of players though. We are never going to be the best team in international football but what we should be obliged to do is give ourselves the best chance to get the best out of what we have. I don't believe that our approach currently does that (although someone on here might offer a counter-viewpoint).

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Agree with this. We need to maximise the potential of all the resources available to us. This may not produce a greater number of top class players, but should produce a greater crop of second level players. With that, and a manager that can harness the resources most effectively, there's not much more we can do.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Of course there isn't. Which is why the future looks so grim and depressing. What have the FAI done since we were embarrassed by the products of long-term organisation at the Euros last year? In 2002, we were able to compete with Spain in the second round of the World Cup. Spain then put a comprehensive plan in place and, by the time we met again in 2012, they'd left us far behind and had moved on to another footballing planet. The lack of willingness, imagination and foresight for developmental change within the FAI is unfathomable despite the red lights flashing them in the face.

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Excellent point. The FAI need to come out and say what their plans are to correct the current situation.

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Originally Posted by gastric

The difference between rugby and GAA in relation to football is that both are successful in their own right and are home based. For some perverse reason, a football player is only deemed successful when they are playing in England. This is comparing small ponds with a massive lake. This perverse view along with a weak LOI in terms of finance and a limited emphasis on technical ability among junior clubs is at the heart of our problems. There is no obvious solution, the only possible one might if somehow we had teams join the Scottish League which might provide a shot in the arm to Irish football.

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I think you're on the right track Gastric. A multi national competition with the Scots, Welsh, lower league English and Sweden, Denmark, Finland, as well as ourselves is the way to go, I would suggest. I know this was discussed a few years back but never came to pass. Our domestic clubs are a million miles away from qualifying for the Champions League, so let's provide a stepping stone towards that progress with a competition such as that described above. There has to be something other than the year in year out LOI which does little to improve our standards.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

I think you're on the right track Gastric. A multi national competition with the Scots, Welsh, lower league English and Sweden, Denmark, Finland, as well as ourselves is the way to go, I would suggest. I know this was discussed a few years back but never came to pass. Our domestic clubs are a million miles away from qualifying for the Champions League, so let's provide a stepping stone towards that progress with a competition such as that described above. There has to be something other than the year in year out LOI which does little to improve our standards.

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That suggestion is distasteful in the extreme to the majority of actual fans of clubs mooted and UEFA would never let it happen anyway.

If LOI standards are so bad, how come there's more LOI reared players in the top ranks, and Irish squad, than ever before? It may have something to do with the globalisation of the English league playing pool, but it's also something to do with local club coaches doing a fairly good job. I'd also say the Champions League - essentially the high-rollers roulette table in the FIFA casino - isn't a realistic measure of how viable a domestic league is or how successful an international team becomes.

There's no reason this root-and-branch reform of the game in Ireland - whether it involves pyramid structures, wholesale importation of coaches or handing out passports to Paddy Suarez et al - would be hindered by a functioning domestic league. There's a few reasons to suspect it would be far more damaged by a North Atlantic Premier League (NAPL).

Far simpler would be to focus on the direction of grassroots football and for people to stop (for goodness sake) viewing the LOI as some barometer of failure and use it as an actual asset in player development.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

Excellent point. The FAI need to come out and say what their plans are to correct the current situation.

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The FAI has a good technical plan in place and regional centres etc. but (a) resources are thin (b) the junior clubs ands schools leagues often have other agendas (c) the governance workings of the FAI prevent full ownership of the game and allow these self-interested factions to continue unchallenged, and (d) actual "touch time" with the players is low. Also notwithstanding any argument about the standard of the LOI the reality is that the lack of a fully professional league offering anything other than 40-week contracts to many players, even the best ones, means we'll always lose large numbers of players to England. If they leave at 16 or so it means the FAI is powerless over their continued development.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

North or South. Drinks or on me. Everyone is welcome.

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How would you go about convincing unwilling OWCers? Would you entertain someone suggesting we should join a fantasy "British Isles" entity?

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Originally Posted by tricky_colour

One point I would like to make is Seamus Coleman was originally a Gaelic footballer, so you could either blame them or thank them depending on how you see it. Are there others who could switch? Would they want? Would it be right to try and poach them?

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Poach them? From voluntary/amateur GAA clubs? :confused:

It's not as if Séamie never played football/association football/soccer in the early period of his life. He played for St. Catherine's in Killybegs before impressing in a pre-season friendly against Sligo and signing for them.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Glenn Moore of the Independent doesn't wholly agree!

[url]http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/eden-hazard-christian-benteke-and-marouane-fellaini-have-ensured-the-belgians-are-back--but-was-it-down-to-luck-or-good-planning-8799006.html[/url

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I actually think he bolsters the notion that the current generation are products of design:

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Originally Posted by Glenn Moore

However, there are elements of Belgium's rise that do tally with Dyke's philosophy. A decade ago the Belgian FA delivered a blueprint to clubs on player development which, according to their FA, most have followed. The FA demanded better coaching qualifications and, presumably influenced by the Dutch, determined that national sides at all age-groups should play a high-tempo 4-3-3.

They also pressed, as will Dyke, for improved player release for junior tournaments. This led to a place in the last four of both the European Under-17 finals and Under-21 finals in 2007, and another semi-final with an Under-23 team at the 2008 Beijing Olympics.

It has long been the view of the FA that tournament experience at a young age is hugely beneficial to players development. Many of the current stars were in these teams. In Belgium's case it also helps the national side bond. Fellaini told Esquire: "We have played together for a long time. A lot of us went to the Olympics in Beijing, stayed together in the village, when we were 18, 19, 20, 21, so we got to know each other very well."

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By the way, Stutts, I wonder if David Kelly was reading the forum last week. I sensed a lot of bitterness reserved for internet forum-users in his latest piece on Trap's potential replacement: http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-29563509.html

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Originally Posted by David Kelly

Needless to say, the only exotic names being tossed into the managerial race will probably be Dutch, cheap at the price and beloved of self-anointed pseudo intellectuals who spend every waking hour on the internet.

... And why should Irish football swoon at [René Meulensteen] just because faux intellectual soccer types are his cheerleaders?

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And didn't the silly fool forget to mention Co Adriaanse!?

It's irrelevant how many waking and sleeping hours I spend on the internet, I would need to have a lobotomy but left with just enough brainpower to use a thesaurus software application which activates random, peculiar and little used alternative words, to be on a par with David effin Kelly.

Probably it's insulting to people who have had lobotomies to associate them with David Kelly.
I do apologise.

I'd still like Kelly to explain why not paying in Tibilisi was such a treacherous and cowardly act.

Was "faux intellectual soccer types" one or two insults? The way I read it the term "soccer type" was a dig in its own right.

And anyway, I thought Danny was a genuine intellectual.

I hope he reads that :)

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'd still like Kelly to explain why not paying in Tibilisi was such a treacherous and cowardly act.

Was "faux intellectual soccer types" one or two insults? The way I read it the term "soccer type" was a dig in its own right.

And anyway, I thought Danny was a genuine intellectual.

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I took offence at the implication I'm a faux intellectual.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

That suggestion is distasteful in the extreme to the majority of actual fans of clubs mooted and UEFA would never let it happen anyway.

If LOI standards are so bad, how come there's more LOI reared players in the top ranks, and Irish squad, than ever before? It may have something to do with the globalisation of the English league playing pool, but it's also something to do with local club coaches doing a fairly good job. I'd also say the Champions League - essentially the high-rollers roulette table in the FIFA casino - isn't a realistic measure of how viable a domestic league is or how successful an international team becomes.

There's no reason this root-and-branch reform of the game in Ireland - whether it involves pyramid structures, wholesale importation of coaches or handing out passports to Paddy Suarez et al - would be hindered by a functioning domestic league. There's a few reasons to suspect it would be far more damaged by a North Atlantic Premier League (NAPL).

Far simpler would be to focus on the direction of grassroots football and for people to stop (for goodness sake) viewing the LOI as some barometer of failure and use it as an actual asset in player development.

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While my comments might seem distasteful, no offence was meant by them. I am just trying to work out how best we can develop Irish talent, nurture them and offer them the opportunity to stay in Irish football as long as possible keeping in mind that big money will always be available over the pond. My point was that the LOI needs a shot in the arm and that having teams join the Scottish League might be it. While it may not be acceptable to many, I can't think of any other way of developing Irish football in the medium term, but I am very happy to hear others' ideas.
In regards to the comment about UEFA not letting such a proposal happen, Danny posted a link a while ago indicating that UEFA is now seriously considering such proposals which is a massive change in attitude.

Some people are saying UEFA might have left the door open on this from a legal point of view since they've allowed a joint Benelux women's league. I know there is serious talk of a Russian-Ukrainian joint league, and a mooted ex Yugoslavian combined league, though the latter is still some way off.

I d agree with Mark and Gastric though that something drastic such as a merger needs to happen, the domestic game hasn't really kicked on, this year's European results were shocking and not ever having a team in the CL group stage is a massive indictment of it.

Two things we need to do above all else:
1. Appoint a coach who can get more than the sum of its parts out of the national team
2. Focus on developing technique of ALL our young players aged between 8 and 14 - it's about raising the average technical standard of all our club players.


Forget about tactics and systems, keeping player in the national league, all our national teams playing the same system, blaming the English game etc.


no. 1 is something that can be fixed in the short term
number 2 will take longer but needs the FAI, school boy clubs etc all on the same page I doubt they can see past their own agendas and will probably bring out some water downed bullsh!t plan that looks good in a press release

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Originally Posted by kennedmc

Two things we need to do above all else:
1. Appoint a coach who can get more than the sum of its parts out of the national team
2. Focus on developing technique of ALL our young players aged between 8 and 14 - it's about raising the average technical standard of all our club players.


Forget about tactics and systems, keeping player in the national league, all our national teams playing the same system, blaming the English game etc.


no. 1 is something that can be fixed in the short term
number 2 will take longer but needs the FAI, school boy clubs etc all on the same page I doubt they can see past their own agendas and will probably bring out some water downed bullsh!t plan that looks good in a press release

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To be fair though, your post is something no one can disagree with but that doesn't really say much at all.

There is never a guarantee on a coach either. Mourinho is arguably the greatest manager in the world yet you wouldn't say he had Madrid playing to more than the sum of its parts last year.

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Originally Posted by barney

To be fair though, your post is something no one can disagree with but that doesn't really say much at all.

There is never a guarantee on a coach either. Mourinho is arguably the greatest manager in the world yet you wouldn't say he had Madrid playing to more than the sum of its parts last year.

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I'm not a huge fan of Martin O'Neill as a club manager but I think he would a great job as Ireland manager.

The other point I'm making is because we have limited resources, the only thing we should focus on is developing the technique of young players from 8-14. We need a national blueprint. It's very easy to do a little bit of everthing and nothing actually gets done or its all so watered down there is no impact.

We don't need schools of excellence, wasting money on tactical coaches to get all our youth team playing the one way etc.

I want to see 12 year olds who are comfortable with the ball at the their feet can do the basics really well and want to pass the football.

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Originally Posted by kennedmc

The other point I'm making is because we have limited resources, the only thing we should focus on is developing the technique of young players from 8-14. We need a national blueprint. .

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When I was that age, I was going to Joey's in Sallynoggin for their "Saturday Morning Programme". All skills, technique, small games, passing etc. This was the late 80s early 90s. It was fantastic.

Does coaching like that not go on anymore? I haven't been involved with or seen any kids coaching for 20 years or so. And the only player I can think of that came from St. Joseph's to international level is the rather agricultural Paul McShane. And possibly Alan O'Brien, currently residing in the "where is he now?" file.

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Originally Posted by kennedmc

I'm not a huge fan of Martin O'Neill as a club manager but I think he would a great job as Ireland manager.

The other point I'm making is because we have limited resources, the only thing we should focus on is developing the technique of young players from 8-14. We need a national blueprint. It's very easy to do a little bit of everthing and nothing actually gets done or its all so watered down there is no impact.

We don't need schools of excellence, wasting money on tactical coaches to get all our youth team playing the one way etc.

I want to see 12 year olds who are comfortable with the ball at the their feet can do the basics really well and want to pass the football.

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Not a fan of O'Neill either but I suppose I haven't seen a better suggestion so far.

What would that look like though? What would we do to make the kids better? I saw a post that said that Spain have a massive amount of qualified coaches (1 for every 17 players) whereas England have 1 for every 800 (no doubt we'd be even worse). Are qualified coaches the way to go?

I often hear people say, "stop kids playing competitively until they are 12-14. Get them focussed on learing technique." Is that the way? My question would be why can't they do both. Is hoofball going to triumph over tikka-takka (I'm using these absolute terms in the absence of better ones) until kids reach a certain age? If so, why? I think competition is healthy for kids and I reckon if we removed it, it would be cited as a reason for us not having a winning mentality at some stage.

One that seems like a no-brainer to me is having kids play on full sized pitches. Can anyone offer an argument in favour of that or at the very least provide rationale why it hasn't changed? To me, it's absolutely brainless having an 11 year old kid stand in a full sized goal and a bunch of other 11 year olds running the full length of a proper pitch.

barney, I have posted a link to this guy's website before but I think it's great reading. There's a lot of legacy information on the site that you may have to go searching for. Stuff on his philosophy, other countries' methods, dysfunctional politics at schoolboy level etc.

http://www.thecoachdiary.com/about/

Also, by all accounts leagues like the NDSL have turned the traditional approach upside down and are reaping great rewards in terms of producing technical players. South Dublin is still resisting change I believe, all down to political inertia.


I was at 2 seminars on this topic recently (December in London and March in Dublin, the latter hosted by the coach diary guy) and what I took from it was that there IS a sizeable and growing contingent of "enlightened" coaches in Ireland eager to change the coaching ethos. I suspect that in time their views will prevail.

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Originally Posted by gastric

While my comments might seem distasteful, no offence was meant by them. I am just trying to work out how best we can develop Irish talent, nurture them and offer them the opportunity to stay in Irish football as long as possible keeping in mind that big money will always be available over the pond. My point was that the LOI needs a shot in the arm and that having teams join the Scottish League might be it. While it may not be acceptable to many, I can't think of any other way of developing Irish football in the medium term, but I am very happy to hear others' ideas.

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No offence was taken. Just pointing out such a concept would be anathema to the people with the biggest stake - actual club fans.

I'm not sure what the big deal is about 'big money across the pond'. Ireland could join forces with however number of international small fry they want and the EPL, La Liga, Bundesliga et al will still cherry pick the best they have to offer.

People then say, well, these other leagues are doing a better job of developing players. But tell that to David Forde, Seamus Coleman, James McClean, Wes Hoolahan, Connor Sammon, Shane Long etc etc. Or particularly look at someone like Keith Fahey whose career only took off after he returned to the LOI. Considering how under resourced and, quite frankly, ignored the LOI has been, it's not doing such a bad job of developing decent players.

Could it better? Sure. Of course. But why does that have to involve pie-in-the-sky amalgamations instead of focusing on tangible medium-term goals, like, a marketing budget, improved facilities, a proper pyramid and co-operations between domestic and junior football? To my view those are more realistic, achievable and desirable aims than the North Atlantic Premier League.

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Originally Posted by gastric

In regards to the comment about UEFA not letting such a proposal happen, Danny posted a link a while ago indicating that UEFA is now seriously considering such proposals which is a massive change in attitude.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

Some people are saying UEFA might have left the door open on this from a legal point of view since they've allowed a joint Benelux women's league. I know there is serious talk of a Russian-Ukrainian joint league, and a mooted ex Yugoslavian combined league, though the latter is still some way off.

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I saw the link posted but haven't had a chance to look at it (assume it's a few pages back?). However I'll believe it when I see it. The women's game is different for obvious reasons. For UEFA to make leagues of this nature happen it would take buy-in from hundreds of clubs, junior clubs, FA representatives and getting on to millions of fans. It's just not realistic.

Individual FAs would have kittens at the prospect of their autonomy being threatened, not to mention having to split places in Europe. How could CSKA, Zenit and Spartak feel about having to compete with Shakhtar for Champions League places. Never mind a club like Dynamo Kiev, a powerful dynasty in the Ukraine who - if it happened tomorrow - would be blown out of the water in such an arrangement.

Big clubs in small ponds like to keep it that way. It would be very, very difficult for relevant FAs and UEFA to overcome these obstacles, even if they really, really, really wanted to (and I'm not convinced they are).

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

I d agree with Mark and Gastric though that something drastic such as a merger needs to happen, the domestic game hasn't really kicked on, this year's European results were shocking and not ever having a team in the CL group stage is a massive indictment of it.

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A massive indictment? On what planet do clubs with an average of less than 2,000 fans, crumbling stadia and budgets cut to the bone get to the group stages of the Champions League?

Moreover since when was that a relevant or reasonable measure. Does a sugar-daddied Romanian or Greek team making the group stage reflect on the quality of their league or national team? Does an English or German team full of foreigners winning the thing mean anything?

Those looking at drastic measures need to chill it down a bit. It's obvious Irish football needs a reform - top to bottom - but instead of going through the decades-in-the-making legal equivalent of shoving a camel through the needle's eye by forming a joint North Atlantic Football Extravaganza, how about we focus on just investing more time in our domestic game and encouraging players to stay local where good coaching and resources are being developed?

Surely we try plans A and B before going nuclear?

Joining up the game and allowing a properly accountable FAI to take full ownership of it, kicking vested interests into touch, is the most important step.

Let's put aside the emotional or moral debate about a cross-border league.

If a cross-border league was to be created the rationale would have to be financial improvement. Financial improvement = better wages and facilities = retention of better players / less reliance on the lower tiers of English football. As said earlier in another thread, League One players in England earn upwards of GBP 60k a year, so EUR 75k or thereabouts. We'd need to see some improvement to be able to pay Irish-based players anything like this across the board.

Where would the money come frome?
* TV: it'd have to be a very attractive TV product with a big potential audience. I don't see any kind of Celtic League solution here.
* Corporate: the Irish market isn't big enough. I doubt other peripheral countries' markets are either
* Gates: regular crowds of upwards of 10k would be required to contribute financially to a self-sustaining professional league. Again, the "product improvement" would have to be quite substantial.


I've often thought UEFA could do more to include smaller laegues. Perhaps a third-tier European competition, lower than the Europa League and funded by distributions from the other UEFA competitions.

Better still, configuring the Europa League on a regional basis and geared to include a couple of teams from leagues of our standard. In fact, exactly our standard. Anyone lower can eff off :)

The problem here is that if a LOI club cracked it just once they'd become a monopoly domestically so redistribution rules would need to be set.

Another alternative, if the FAI could afford it, would be to offer central contracts to a number of domestic players - potential future internationals most at risk of leaving to League One equivalent clubs.