He had to do it a few times when Dunne, OShea and Ward went missing at the EurosQuote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
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He had to do it a few times when Dunne, OShea and Ward went missing at the EurosQuote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I think there is substantial evidence that St Ledger looked halfway decent because he had players like Dunne and O'Shea to babysit him. There has got to be a reason why he is so ponderous at Championship level.Quote:
Originally Posted by the doc
That's a bit harsh. I think the doc stood up in some games where those players were unavailable or were playing like drains. In fact, I can't really think of a time he's not been up there with our best players.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
I know my Footie
Interesting point made by Shearer (I know) on MOTD, that Mata's run means Clark has to follow him and leave Rooney unmarked for the first goal. You'd have to question the doc's analysis that he was ball-watching when he was clearly following the runner.
In fairness we've been questioning his analysis on all facets of good defending/defenders for years.
It was more emphatic the way I phrased it.
Yep I think he was damned of he went and damned if he didn't, maybe he could have chosen to stay with Rooney in hindsight. It was good football from United.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
It was redundant!Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Have any of you on here played Football?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
In that situation you try and hold your position,you do not go chasing the ball like a headless chicken.
Clarks too rash, he lacks the ability to read the game and ends up ball watching.
He's third choice at Villa and will be 4th choice once back Okores back.
That's how bad Clark is.
He's had 100 plus games for Villa and hasn't improved at all.
Another false Dawn!
Doc, can you explain to me how following a runner counts as ball-watching, as per your original criticism? It's almost as if you don't really understand yourself whether he did anything wrong or not but you're nevertheless certain they he has and feel the need to offer a criticism no matter how half-baked.
Absolutely no doubts Clarke was at fault for the first goal. Ball watching at it's best.
I didnt see it, anyone care to show? I'm pretty sure if CD is saying that he wasn't at fault he probably was though :P
It's here at 2:40. It is mainly Clark's fault. There was a player tracking Mata even if he appeared to be losing the race. Leaving Rooney alone in the middle of the penalty box shouldn't really have been an option. You could make the case that the left back should have left Young and covered for Clark but he wouldn't have got there in time anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yS6LeE1qDE
I might need to look at it again. My recollection is as follows:
A cross came in from the left. A MU forward attached the space at the near post and Clark had the choice of following him or stay put, with Rooney lurking just behind him. I don't know why he had a decision to make as there should probably have been another Villa CB present. He chose to track the near post decoy run and Rooney was left unmarked to nod a tidy header home. Had Clark chosen to hold his ground it may have prevented the goal, but the near post runner might have been able to nod it in.
I wouldn't call it ball watching because Clark was reacting to a MU player's run, but "bad reading" is probably fair, as per part of Doc's criticism.
In the ten minutes following he made a good block and got a great head in front of Vidic to save a certain goal.
I didn't see the second half.
[Edit: DeLorean posted the link while I was typing]
He shouldnt have ran toward mata as mata is clearly being tracked there by a villa player, who is running in with him, as soon as its obvious the ball is coming in he stops.
Clark should have had enough confidence in the villa player coming back to do his job and worry about his own job only which was to stay put and keep an eye on Rooney. No ones fault but Clarks, inexperience more than anything you'd hope though, otherwise very poor judgement and something he should have by now.
Just looked at it and am reluctantly with Doc on it, as I still hope Clark will become a key player for us but, he should have held position imo, but I think his team mate lad lost the runner and instinctively he moved to cover, but the Mata run was to the near post and even if the crosser found him running at pace, which was a lower percentage risk anyway, he still had a more difficult finish than Rooney in the center of the goal, stood still. it made the ball in to Rooney an easier one to pick out also.
Thats exactly how i saw it, but even though mata had an edge on the player tracking back he stopped once he saw where the ball was going, so even if clark had felt the need to cover, he should have waited regardless he would still have got across to cover that area, thats good spatial awareness, perhaps he doesn't have it, or hasn't learned it yet....
Part of the issue is that Villa's defenders play like shellshocked soldiers returning from WW2. Panic stricken and totally reactive. You could drive buses through the space they leave. Utd's movement was decent but hardly superlative - yet it caused the back four to have a collective aneurysm. Less said about Stoke the week previous, the better.
It's been chronic like that for three seasons. Occasionally non-existant covering from midfielders is part of the problem but, defensively, Villa just can't stay organised consistently. Maddening.
Clark IS part of the problem there though. Not all of it but he carries his fair share.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Of course, it's up to him (and the other defenders) to cut out silly errors. But it should be said it's almost the same malaise that looked Dunne like a pub player for a large part of his Villa stint. Sometimes the problems run deeper than the individual.Quote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
I don't think anybody's denying he's at fault, it's just that doc's reasoning is hilariously wrong-headed. He was at fault but ball-watching is the one thing he didn't do. If he'd been caught ball-watching he'd probably have been in a better position to defend it.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
You ever played the game Chazza?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I know my footie, know a dud when I see one!
Move on!
Quote:
Originally Posted by the doc
Tell us doc, at what level do you begin to count someone as 'having played' ? Do you mean, having earned money from playing, to have played professionally ? Or does semi-pro count ? Or been in a youths set up / academy ?Quote:
Originally Posted by the doc
Do enlighten us :)
It's sort of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, mind you think a few of you here are guilty of video watching :)
However it is a major crime to leave Rooney unmarked 8 yard out centrally in front of goal.
There is certainly an element of ball watching there. All of the Villa players are guilty of that, it's a generally disorganised
defence, and people like Clark should be playing a role in organising it.
Just mark the players up and get goal side of them, you don't need to watch the ball if he has nobody to pass to.
In Alan Hanson's words "Shocking Defending".
Prior to that Villa had one of the best away defensive records in the league and their overall record is pretty decent
so maybe we should not read to much into just one incident.
I'm with Charlie. Clark's judgment was definitely at fault but ball watching wasn't the mistake. He was doing anything but ball watching.
He wasn't watching the ball, he got distracted from his duty by the decoy run of Mata who had clearly slipped his marker,
but the final pass was not going to be made to find its way through 3 Villa players towards Mata, with Rooney in that space.
No, I was born without legs. My assessment is based purely on logic and observational evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by the doc
Clark is watching Mata.
Mata does not have the ball.
Therefore Clark is not watching the ball.
You might know your Footie but I know my Aristotlean Logic.
I'm looking for a copy of my aritotelean logic textbook from UCD in 1985/6. Written by Dr Patrick Bastable but it's out of print.
If anyone can get their hands on a copy...
But, Stutts, if you're book-watching you won't see the action all around you on the thread, and while Dr Bastable will be pleased, another doc will be very annoyed with you!
In his defence, you do not need to be an air traffic controller to know flight MH370 is missing :)Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
I don't see how that's a defence (quite the opposite) but I like the analogy.
Has any of the doc's posts not referred in some way to St Ledger?
Clark is young for a defender. St Ledger is pushing 30. Clark has room to improve. What is St Ledger's excuse?
St Ledger has been grand at International level. I'm referring more to the lack of progress in his club career.
The doc has been around since before Clark ever came on the scene. Before Clark came along most of his posts were about St Ledger's original nemesis, Alex Bruce.
They were dark days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I don't know if they're all better than him but they've certainly all played at a higher level than him.Quote:
Originally Posted by the doc
I'd be more concerned that, added to your belief that tracking a runner counts as ball-watching, you've also somehow decided that being 29 doesn't qualify as "pushing 30".
Doc do you think Andy King will throw you a surprise rager when you turn 30 next 28 December? Maybe they will combine it with the Xmas party.
Well the Boy Blunder will have plenty of time to ball watch from the Villa bench today!
Where did you watch the Leicester match from last night, Sean?
There are at least 6 other players ahead of you on merit, Sean. They can't all be sh*te.Quote:
Originally Posted by the doc
How are Leicester doing by the way?
Finally getting a start v Hull. Left back though.