Eligibility proposal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Yes, we know that, thanks.
The discussion is about the possibility of new rules which might mean it is no longer enough..

---

What 'new rules'? New rules in your head more like. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Not so. Someone granted citizenship for reasons other than playing ability, and without the necessary connections, would also be ineligible.

---

Would or are?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Someone with dual nationality who has already played for another country is also ineligible..

---

If they are under 21 and haven't played for the 'A' team. Personally I'd like to see a return to the days that apart from schools representative sides, you should not play for more than one country.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Odd that people born in NI with a supposed "birthright" of citizenship can't vote without producing a passport.

---

Odd that someone like me with a 'ancestral link' to what you term 'the south (sic.)' and with Irish citizenship can't pass on my citizenship to my children without a FBC, while those born in that equally foreign, and in no way connected to the 26C, part of the world you call 'Northern Ireland', can. My wife has an ancestral link (mother) to the 26C, and lived in the 26C for more than two years, but can't pass on her Irish citizenship automatically; her father who has no ancestral link and never lived in the 26C could because he's from Belfast. What's your point here?

Foreign Births Registration
A person born abroad to a parent who, although not born in Ireland, was otherwise an Irish citizen at the time of the person’s birth, can become an Irish citizen by applying for Foreign Births Registration, either to the Irish Diplomatic or Consular Mission nearest to where the applicant normally resides...

see http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=267

To answer your question, maybe they can. All they need is a birth certificate showing that they were born in Ireland prior to 2004 to prove they're entitled to Irish citizenship.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by janeymac

Below is what the Constitution of the ROI says about citizenship. The Constitution is a very powerful document, it can't be changed without a referendum, anything in it has the approval of a majority of all those eligible to vote in the ROI.

---

No sh1t.:eek:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by janeymac

As you will see, this change to the Constitution was effected in 1999 when Darron Gibson was about 10! I'm sure the legal eagles in FIFA would have noticed that.

---

People in NI have always been entitled to Southern citizenship.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Then how come you conflated "the Island" with the Republic?

---

I didn´t

Quote:

---

I know. Hence the problems we're discussing with NI players.

---

We are discussing the eligibility of Irish citizens born in NI

Quote:

---

Well, they agree

---

yes, FIFA do agree without qualification

Quote:

---

it is satisfied simply by virtue of citizenship.

---

Citizenship was not enough for the Brazilians to demonstrate links to Qatar

Quote:

---

It's unlikely that they were moved by the "strength" and "quality" of "northern nationalist feelings!

---

Who the féck said anything about feelings :confused:
I wrote
"FIFA totally agree that eligibility criteria is satisfied with the strength and quality of that connection"
Connection is being linked.
Strength means strong links.
Quality of connection as evident in full automatic citizenship.
Full automatic citizenship demonstrates to most everybody else (on the planet) the quality of the connection to the Republic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Then how come you conflated "the Island" with the Republic? You may have citizenship by living in "the Island", but someone with citizenship from outside the island (and therefore outside the state), but who has a grandparent born in the state, has more of a connection than you do (also from outside the state) with no grandparents born in the state.

---

What a load of bull! Who are you to make a sweeping statement like that. For all you know, Darron Gibson could have spent all his summers in Donegal with his granny/auntie who moved there 30 years ago!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

What 'new rules'? New rules in your head more like.

---

The rule change I've been proposing for the past few days, and which - ironically - you have been discussing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

Would or are?

---

Are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

If they are under 21 and haven't played for the 'A' team.

---

That's right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

Personally I'd like to see a return to the days that apart from schools representative sides, you should not play for more than one country.

---

Me too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

Odd that someone like me with a 'ancestral link' to what you term 'the south (sic.)' and with Irish citizenship can't pass on my citizenship to my children without a FBC, while those born in that equally foreign, and in no way connected to the 26C, part of the world you call 'Northern Ireland', can.

---

On the face of it, I agree it's odd. But anyone with a knowledge of Irish nationalism and its 32-county territorial obsession would not be surprised.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

My wife has an ancestral link (mother) to the 26C, and lived in the 26C for more than two years, but can't pass on her Irish citizenship automatically; her father who has no ancestral link and never lived in the 26C could because he's from Belfast. What's your point here?

---

I think you made the point by describing it as odd.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

To answer your question, maybe they can. All they need is a birth certificate showing that they were born in Ireland prior to 2004 to prove they're entitled to Irish citizenship.

---

So, far from being "stoopid", I was right.:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

No sh1t.:eek:


People in NI have always been entitled to Southern citizenship.

---

But it has not always been a Constitutional right!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by janeymac

What a load of bull! Who are you to make a sweeping statement like that. For all you know, Darron Gibson could have spent all his summers in Donegal with his granny/auntie who moved there 30 years ago!

---

For all you know, so too might the person from England or wherever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by janeymac

But it has not always been a Constitutional right!

---

The effect is the exact same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

The effect is the exact same.

---

No its not - the difference is that Darron Gibson, with his automatic Constitutional right to ROI citizenship, is in a far stronger position than what it was before.

If he as an Irish citizen is treated differently (discriminated against) in comparison to other ROI citizens (born in Republic) there is a mechanism where he can pursue a human rights case with the Gov. of Ireland for not complying with the ROI's Constitution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

The rule change I've been proposing for the past few days, and which - ironically - you have been discussing.

---

The NI team being underepresented of Catholics, the Northern Ireland flag not being based on the St. George's Cross, anti-Semitism of the Irish fan, Irish citizenship. I haven't been discussing any rule change, because there isn't any rule change to talk about. The only thing I'm discussing re FIFA's rules is that someone from NI is entitled to play for his country. You can bang on about changing the rules. I'm not one bit interested in that whatsoever. Bang away! Might bang some sense into you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

I think you made the point by describing it as odd.

---

Odd, as in I was being ironic.:rolleyes: Irish person born in Ireland of Irish born parents and grandparents is more entitled to Irish citizenship than Irish person born outside Ireland of Irish persons also born outside of Ireland. Hmmmm??!! Might not fit everybody, but it's fair from my point of view.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

So, far from being "stoopid", I was right.:)

---

Right about what?

Talking about the Qatar case, it must be pretty easy getting Qatari citizenship if you are not a gifted Brazilian footballer. I mean, two years should do it, no?

Qatar’s government is keen to protect the status quo and doesn’t want to compromise its cultural values or standard of living by allowing foreigners to become a permanent part of society.

Really? What about marriage?

Your only route to becoming a naturalised citizen is by marriage to a national; even this, however, doesn’t guarantee citizenship, particularly for non-Muslims.

Even after years of residence?

In exceptional circumstances only, Qatar’s ruler might grant citizenship to a foreigner who has provided outstanding service to the state over a number of years.

Or none if you're a good footballer and Brazilian.

A generous employer might reward a loyal worker who has made a major contribution to the company over many years by providing him with a work and residence permit of indefinite duration. After your retirement, however, the employer would have to be a figure of considerable influence to maintain this gift and satisfy the labour authorities. In this case, you wouldn’t be a citizen, but merely be allowed to remain in the country indefinitely.

Unless you're a good footballer and Brazilian. But surely if you are born in Qatar, you must be a Qatari citizen, just like if you are born in the O6C you are British and Northern Irish like it or not?

Children of foreigners born in Qatar don’t have rights of local citizenship and automatically assume the nationality of the parents. If one of the parents is a national of Qatar, the child will usually be granted local nationality and may later become a national of Qatar and obtain a local passport. It’s recommended that you fully acquaint yourself with the implications of giving birth in Qatar.

Take it a Foreign Birth's certificate is out of the question.

In many cases, the child isn’t affected, but any children that he has might not enjoy the same rights of nationality, citizenship, abode, etc. as his parents and grandparents.

Lookiong at that, you can see why FIFA are so p*ssed off with Qatar, and why they see a difference with Ireland where 'Every person born on the island of Ireland before 1 January, 2005 is entitled to be an Irish citizen. The citizenship of a person born on the island of Ireland on or after 1 January, 2005 depends on the citizenship of the person's parents at the time of the person's birth or the residency history of one of the parents prior to the birth.'

http://www.justlanded.com/english/qa...ts/citizenship

http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=267

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by janeymac

No its not - the difference is that Darron Gibson, with his automatic Constitutional right to ROI citizenship, is in a far stronger position than what it was before.

---

Nonsense. People from NI had the same ability to be an ROI citizen before 1999 as they did after. The fact that it's in the constitution just means it's more difficult to change the law.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by janeymac

If he as an Irish citizen is treated differently (discriminated against) in comparison to other ROI citizens (born in Republic) there is a mechanism where he can pursue a human rights case with the Gov. of Ireland for not complying with the ROI's Constitution.

---

If there were no constitutional provision he could still pursue a "human rights case". And the "human rights case" would stand up regardless of whether there were a constitutional provision or a mere statutory provision.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

I haven't been discussing any rule change, because there isn't any rule change to talk about.

---

Zzzzzzzz. Proposed rule change, then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

Odd, as in I was being ironic.:rolleyes: Irish person born in Ireland of Irish born parents and grandparents is more entitled to Irish citizenship than Irish person born outside Ireland of Irish persons also born outside of Ireland. Hmmmm??!! Might not fit everybody, but it's fair from my point of view.

---

You're confusing the state with the island again - you deliberately refer to "Ireland" - but there are two states on Ireland. You can be Irish without being from the Republic or without being an ROI citizen. It's odd for people born outside of the territory of a state to - as of right - be citizens of that state. Therefore it's odd for people born in NI to be citizens of the Republic as of right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

Right about what?

---

Not needing a passport.

Proof positive about the benificial effects of the FIFA sanctioned eligibility to play for Ireland.
It's an honour to have lads like McGeady, Kilbane and Gibson, after reaching the required standard, to be selected for their country.

Darron "delighted with FIFA's surprise proposall"
http://www.derryjournal.com/journal-...ise.3461378.jp

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Nonsense. People from NI had the same ability to be an ROI citizen before 1999 as they did after. The fact that it's in the constitution just means it's more difficult to change the law.


If there were no constitutional provision he could still pursue a "human rights case". And the "human rights case" would stand up regardless of whether there were a constitutional provision or a mere statutory provision.

---

But it probably rules out any 'gentleman's agreement' between the IFA & FAI about selection, with the FAI being heavily funded by the Irish Gov.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

Personally I'd like to see a return to the days that apart from schools representative sides, you should not play for more than one country.

---

What days were those Lopez? How far do you go back?
Pre Tony Mancini days? :)

From the early 70´s for about 30 years onwards, the criteria for eligibility for changing national team was very loose before the present criteria made it stricter.
AFAIR the only thing barring a dual national changing (ca.1972 - 2003 ) was if he was already capped at senior level in a competitive game, (a qualification game).

I'd consider imposing such a restriction, once capped at youth level = tied for life, as draconian.
FIFA present criteria for changing national teams is a fair piece of legislation.

Out of interest, how many of the infamous '94 team against Italy would have qualified for the ROI team if today's rules applied?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Out of interest, how many of the infamous '94 team against Italy would have qualified for the ROI team if today's rules applied?

---

All but McAteer at a guess.
EDIT: correcting myself already ..Triggs didn't start

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by janeymac

there is a certain resentment at the complaints of AnaB from some (not all by a long shot) vocal Ulster/NI supporters who apparently find it difficult to stand for AnaB. It does just smell of bigotry.

---

Bigotry on the part of whom?:confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

All but McAteer at a guess.

---

Was Houghton an ROI citizen? Aldridge?