FAI National League Thread

So 67 clubs applied, but only 15 were considered suitable - and given that's not a full two divisions, they must have been prioritising licensing over numbers. Which is as you want it, but it's still not a great look. Lucan and St Francis the only top-tier LSL sides I think? UCC the only top-tier MSL side. And three sides from Donegal runs the risk of repeating the problems with Salthill/Mervue/Galway a couple of years ago (and Salthill/Mervue are both in too).

It does look like this is more of the same rather than a new pathway unfortunately.

Nearly all of the 15 have league of Ireland clubs in their general vicinity who they will never get close to matching support wise you’d imagine, even if any of them were to gain promotion(s)

My fear here would be this never really takes off and dies away like the A champ and we lose the likes of Mayo FC and CK United to LOI forever. Mayo FC would have been a great addition to the first division (no idea on facilities)

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Originally Posted by kksaints

https://www.fai.ie/latest/15-clubs-c...tional-league/

15 of the clubs announced. Looks like they still want a few more based on them reopening the applications.

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Also sources are hopeful that clubs based in the Offaly, Meath, Tipperary and Wicklow areas while Limerick may stilll be an option.

Interesting that Killarney Celtic have applied - fully capable of stepping up to the level based on their domestic record, but a number of their coaches and players have been involved with Kerry over the three First Division seasons, so could have another Galway/Mervue scenario if they get promoted.

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Originally Posted by nr637

Also sources are hopeful that clubs based in the Offaly, Meath, Tipperary and Wicklow areas while Limerick may stilll be an option.

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What sources?

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Originally Posted by outspoken

My fear here would be this never really takes off and dies away like the A champ and we lose the likes of Mayo FC and CK United to LOI forever.

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Very much so. This all feels very underwhelming given the time and effort it's taken to get to this point.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Very much so. This all feels very underwhelming given the time and effort it's taken to get to this point.

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It does. Though on the flip-side, it's good to see that the FAI is actually being strict about who should get in - and not just panicking and letting any 'aul applicants in for random reasons. We've come on a lot from how they used to do new entrants into the LOI FD.

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Originally Posted by culloty82

Interesting that Killarney Celtic have applied - fully capable of stepping up to the level based on their domestic record, but a number of their coaches and players have been involved with Kerry over the three First Division seasons, so could have another Galway/Mervue scenario if they get promoted.

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A good domestic record has not translated into a good record at provincial or national level to date though. Really hard to get my head around this one and how sustainable it will be in the long run. Other than UCC, nearly every away trip will be over 3-4 hours. Same for all the other provincial teams I guess. As for impact on Kerry FC, it can only be a positive in terms of raising standards, providing a feeder club etc.

Must say I’m very surprised at the tone of some of the commentary here and the almost universal glass half empty approach that seems to be taken to the news.

People often profess on this forum that they want a pyramid in Ireland all the way down to the grassroots and ultimately this is what it looks like. It will mean there are clubs in areas where there are other clubs but local nature means people who are likely to go to letterkenny rovers etc are not likely to have been going to Finn Harps anyway or may do both.

From existing clubs that have joined the league they all seem to be strong intermediate standard clubs which goes to the strength of the licensing criteria I presume. These are the clubs with the ambition again presumably to be playing in the LOI First Division and in my opinion it’s up to the existing clubs within that catchment area to up their game and compete in “elite sport” in Ireland.

On the financial side of it; the clubs here obviously believe that they can make it work especially within the framework of an amateur league at least in the beginning and it would be my expectation that the financial governance on the regulator side has improved significantly through painful experience since almost 15 years ago.

What it boils down to is that these are the first clubs through the door as a proof of concept for every ambition that is to follow. They have a right to give it a go, the expectation is that based on th status of the clubs and the framework of the league it’s not likely to be ruinous so im positive

Putting aside the specific teams, geography, etc. I think this a good day for Irish football.

A football pyramid has always been talked about and it's here now. It will find it's way and settle down, which could see a lot of change but just need to be given a chance bow.

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Originally Posted by redobit

Putting aside the specific teams, geography, etc. I think this a good day for Irish football.

A football pyramid has always been talked about and it's here now.

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Originally Posted by Roones26

Must say I’m very surprised at the tone of some of the commentary here and the almost universal glass half empty approach that seems to be taken to the news.

People often profess on this forum that they want a pyramid in Ireland all the way down to the grassroots and ultimately this is what it looks like.

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This isn't what a pyramid looks like though - that's the problem. This is just another level added onto an already failed system - the same as the A Championship. I think there's a big vote of "no interest" from the LSL and the MSL, which would be the strongest non-league areas and that's the biggest concern I think. We still have the problem Tralee faced in the A Championship days, that if they can't hack it or if the division folds, then they have no choice but to return to the bottom of their local pyramid. And we still have myriad separate local leagues which don't really help anyone other than those teams who like being big fishes in small ponds.

A pyramid solution would have seen the LSL come in as a Div 2 East, absorbing some of the other local leagues. What we have is very far from that (albeit a proper pyramid was never expected of course). It's much closer to franchise football.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

This isn't what a pyramid looks like though - that's the problem. This is just another level added onto an already failed system - the same as the A Championship. I think there's a big vote of "no interest" from the LSL and the MSL, which would be the strongest non-league areas and that's the biggest concern I think. We still have the problem Tralee faced in the A Championship days, that if they can't hack it or if the division folds, then they have no choice but to return to the bottom of their local pyramid. And we still have myriad separate local leagues which don't really help anyone other than those teams who like being big fishes in small ponds.

A pyramid solution would have seen the LSL come in as a Div 2 East, absorbing some of the other local leagues. What we have is very far from that (albeit a proper pyramid was never expected of course). It's much closer to franchise football.

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I think in fairness, some of this is a matter of perspective and some of this is a matter of process.

The way that the organisation is set up is in such a way that merging, absorbing or challenging the local league structures is so impossible that ultimately building down from above is the only politically palatable way to do it.

Fully accept that if the division folds it does nobody any good but the reverse is also true that if it is competitive and raises standards it makes this division and future ones more appealing.

67 clubs applied and 15 were chosen, who was rejected and who opted out and the process was so opaque I think speaking definitive about rejection or appeal of the division is unwise

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Originally Posted by Roones26

The way that the organisation is set up is in such a way that merging, absorbing or challenging the local league structures is so impossible that ultimately building down from above is the only politically palatable way to do it.

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That's fair - but that's where the lack of interest from LSL/MSL clubs is a concern. (I would be surprised if any of the 52 rejected clubs were top LSL/MSL sides, almost by definition)

You would have wanted to see some sort of move from LSL/MSL to LoI, but instead what we have is close to a repeat of the failed A Championship.

I don't mind new clubs joining and 15 is a lot in one way (more than has ever joined the LoI at one time before), but I think there's a deal to be cautious/skeptical about all the same.

Indeed, one would have thought Rockmount and Midleton would have been among the first to put their applications in here.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

What sources?


Very much so. This all feels very underwhelming given the time and effort it's taken to get to this point.

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I prefer to read the positive threads not some of the doom and gloom posys.

Good day for football and well done to the FAI!

Perhaps there is something to be said about the teams coming from areas not currently served by high standard intermediate football. Connacht Ulster Rest of Leinster Rest of Munster where there is more of a premium on getting higher standard game time

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Originally Posted by culloty82

Indeed, one would have thought Rockmount and Midleton would have been among the first to put their applications in here.

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Maybe some clubs just want to successful where they are and don't want to gamble with their current situation.

I also reckon some clubs will regret not taking this opportunity, as it is the best way to access the league profile format and over time the licence system application for clubs will only get harder as the structure develops.

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Originally Posted by legendz

Was only idly musing if Killarney Celtic would apply. Kerry FC is representative of all of Kerry. A club operating out of the KDL wouldn't change that. Currently there is obviously no pathway for clubs beyond the KDL. The National League does throw open the question - are there clubs who want to play at a higher level if a pathway allows?

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I was curious if Killarney would apply. I think they had friendlies against two LoI clubs last year. Killarney don't seem to see the Cork Munster Senior League as having been a route to take. If there are clubs in Limerick, Clare and Tipperary that think the same - Killarney's inclusion might be one for them to ponder.
So Klub Kildare aren't in and Newbridge are. Will be interested to see what happens there at youth level.
Are Galway and Donegal clubs a reflection of no Senior League route?
Was pessimistic about 10 clubs joining. Impressed by 15 on that basis, especially those without the Senior League option. Didn't see any mention of B teams. Might some join before the National League starts after all first teams are confirmed?
The Third Tier is a first step from the Pathways Plan. Whether it's the start of an integrated pyramid, time will tell.

Does anyone have an idea if Lucan or St Francis are likely to also keep a LSL side in addition to this team?

Rather disappointing that there was no applications from Cavan/ monaghan areas or Mullingar which is a much bigger town than Sligo!

Ck United arent fron either Carlow town or Kilkenny either. The towns arent even close.

Wonder if Kerry FC will merge with Tralee Dynamos in the future and rebrand.

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Originally Posted by Martinho II

Rather disappointing that there was no applications from Cavan/ monaghan areas or Mullingar which is a much bigger town than Sligo!

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Monaghan United per the local paper did apply and were rejected

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Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa

Ck United arent fron either Carlow town or Kilkenny either. The towns arent even close.

Wonder if Kerry FC will merge with Tralee Dynamos in the future and rebrand.

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Do they still play their games in Laois?

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

Does anyone have an idea if Lucan or St Francis are likely to also keep a LSL side in addition to this team?

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Killarney Celtic have "B" and "C" teams in the KDL already, so all depends on whether either already have reserve sides in the lower divisions, presumably.

Delighted to see a pathway plan in place.but disappointed with the make up of the 15 selected so far albeit they passed the process for entry.Outside of the feeder club syndrome that will accompany some of the clubs the viability of having 3 clubs from Donegal with Harps in the first div doesnt stack up.2 clubs from Galway city with Galway Utd must also raise long term questions and then theres the prospects for two Kerry teams.Finance and results will determine many of these clubs futures.pity about Monaghan.

Wonder if Kerry FC will merge with Tralee Dynamos in the future and rebrand.[/QUOTE]

This would never happen nor is there any logical reason for it. Kerry FC was formed as a county team - franchise type model, whether people agree or disagree with this. The model has worked very well so far. Any club that goes alone in the county would struggle to unite a fan base, Killarney Celtic are definitely going to struggle here too. Killarney is a lot smaller than Tralee and soccer is a lot more popular in the north of the county. I wish them well and do believe it is good for the game in the county (all boats go up in a rising tide etc.).

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Originally Posted by Zico

This would never happen nor is there any logical reason for it. Kerry FC was formed as a county team - franchise type model, whether people agree or disagree with this. The model has worked very well so far. Any club that goes alone in the county would struggle to unite a fan base, Killarney Celtic are definitely going to struggle here too. Killarney is a lot smaller than Tralee and soccer is a lot more popular in the north of the county. I wish them well and do believe it is good for the game in the county (all boats go up in a rising tide etc.).

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I am definitely not saying the model doesnt work, Kerry have been a huge success and fair play to them, but there is a possibility of the 'County' team system would break down if Killarney is a success, and maybe Kerry FC would need to evolve, (maybe for example into a Tralee / North Kerry team (full of what ifs...)).

I think we are used to the British system, which has been relatively static for team identities , but across world football, teams develop in dynamic ways, merging and splitting, changing crests, colours and names. Even here, Wexford has changed into a 'county' team (ie, name of the county and using GAA colours). So I dont think its unimaginable for another LOI team, especially one still in its infancy compared to others, to undergo these changes.

Considering the amount of 'County Teams' that were introduced into LOI underage at different points (Meath, CK, Klub Kildare, Mayo, Cavan/Monaghan), there are lessons to be learned from the biggest success story, ie. Kerry, and important to watch how it evolves.

Even the fact that Killarney are now in the 3rd tier might show what will happen if these county clubs become established in the LOI. Would success for Mayo mean that we will soon have a Westport United? Meath FC push Trim Celtic? Newbridge Town is absorbing Klub Kildare, will something happen to CK United eventually? Its a dynamic process which is a little unique in world football at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa

I am definitely not saying the model doesnt work, Kerry have been a huge success and fair play to them, but there is a possibility of the 'County' team system would break down if Killarney is a success, and maybe Kerry FC would need to evolve, (maybe for example into a Tralee / North Kerry team (full of what ifs...)).

I think we are used to the British system, which has been relatively static for team identities , but across world football, teams develop in dynamic ways, merging and splitting, changing crests, colours and names. Even here, Wexford has changed into a 'county' team (ie, name of the county and using GAA colours). So I dont think its unimaginable for another LOI team, especially one still in its infancy compared to others, to undergo these changes.

Considering the amount of 'County Teams' that were introduced into LOI underage at different points (Meath, CK, Klub Kildare, Mayo, Cavan/Monaghan), there are lessons to be learned from the biggest success story, ie. Kerry, and important to watch how it evolves.

Even the fact that Killarney are now in the 3rd tier might show what will happen if these county clubs become established in the LOI. Would success for Mayo mean that we will soon have a Westport United? Meath FC push Trim Celtic? Newbridge Town is absorbing Klub Kildare, will something happen to CK United eventually? Its a dynamic process which is a little unique in world football at the moment.

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The Kerry sporting landscape is familiar with a club representing a region and a club from that region going alone. Both can coexist. If a fully integrated tiered structure is on the cards from district league to LoI, it will become a bit more common place.
People can support their local "amateur" club and their local "elite" LoI club. Are there places where it would be one or the other?

"If the champions have been approved for a First Division licence, they will play against the team that finishes bottom of the First Division in a promotion-relegation play-off for a place in the second tier."
Agree with the winners having to have been approved for a First Division licence. Waste of time going through the formality of a playoff without it. It'll be interesting to see what First Division licence criteria are required. The usual standout for me is - will having academy sides be part of the licencing?
LoI clubs have invested in academy sides. If academy sides are required for a First Division licence, outside of CK and Mayo - are many of the other NL sides likely to invest in academy sides?

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Originally Posted by da bishop

Delighted to see a pathway plan in place.but disappointed with the make up of the 15 selected so far albeit they passed the process for entry.Outside of the feeder club syndrome that will accompany some of the clubs the viability of having 3 clubs from Donegal with Harps in the first div doesnt stack up.2 clubs from Galway city with Galway Utd must also raise long term questions and then theres the prospects for two Kerry teams.Finance and results will determine many of these clubs futures.pity about Monaghan.

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I think what it's showing really is that there's a gap in terms of the USL and the CSL (both defunct) - so in a way it's no surprise there's clubs from those regions looking to find something new for themselves. Though even that invites questions as to the strength of the league - I don't know enough about the teams to really compare them against each other, and finances outside a regional league will likely impact that. But I'd have my doubts as to whether it's comparable in strength to the LSL or MSL, and that in itself may impact which way the league goes in future years.

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Originally Posted by legendz

The Kerry sporting landscape is familiar with a club representing a region and a club from that region going alone. Both can coexist. If a fully integrated tiered structure is on the cards from district league to LoI, it will become a bit more common place.
People can support their local "amateur" club and their local "elite" LoI club. Are there places where it would be one or the other?

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Again, not saying you are wrong... Just football is dynamic, and clubs do adapt. If this national league stays rather static, well fine, but if it joins together and becomes a regular LOI division, its not beyond belief that Kerry and Kilarney play against each other in the league eventually, bluring the lines of who is the elite one, and another identity might be needed (event a threat of this scenario might be enough)

Sure, similar to Kerry, look at in Louth, there is one elite team that does win league and pushes standards in Europe, and one part time/ amateur that most of the time just makes up the numbers in LOI, but every so often (and only a very very few times) they swap places. It does happen. (Joking).

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Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa

Ck United arent fron either Carlow town or Kilkenny either. The towns arent even close.

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On a similar trend, Lucan United's senior side don’t play in Lucan either. They play on the outskirts of Celbridge, a 30 minute walk from Celbridge town itself

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Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa

Again, not saying you are wrong... Just football is dynamic, and clubs do adapt. If this national league stays rather static, well fine, but if it joins together and becomes a regular LOI division, its not beyond belief that Kerry and Kilarney play against each other in the league eventually, bluring the lines of who is the elite one, and another identity might be needed (event a threat of this scenario might be enough)

Sure, similar to Kerry, look at in Louth, there is one elite team that does win league and pushes standards in Europe, and one part time/ amateur that most of the time just makes up the numbers in LOI, but every so often (and only a very very few times) they swap places. It does happen. (Joking).

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Kerry has built up through the academy leagues since 2016. There's no blurring of those lines in Kerry.
Not saying you are wrong either. Killarney could pick up local players with a point to prove and cause problems in an MSC clash at least. Kerry will have to handle communication of being a club for the region while recognising the freedom of clubs to plot their own course. Could be tricky if there is a spiky encounter.
Professionalism seems more attainable for Kerry than Killarney. Again, if the pathway from district leagues to LoI does get integrated - professional and local amateur ambitions should be able to coexist.

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Originally Posted by 2 Year Contract

On a similar trend, Lucan United's senior side don’t play in Lucan either. They play on the outskirts of Celbridge, a 30 minute walk from Celbridge town itself

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They play most of their games in Westmanstown I thought

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I think what it's showing really is that there's a gap in terms of the USL and the CSL (both defunct) - so in a way it's no surprise there's clubs from those regions looking to find something new for themselves. Though even that invites questions as to the strength of the league - I don't know enough about the teams to really compare them against each other, and finances outside a regional league will likely impact that. But I'd have my doubts as to whether it's comparable in strength to the LSL or MSL, and that in itself may impact which way the league goes in future years.

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I wouldn't be too concerned about strength.
Lucan United and St. Francis are strong top division LSL sides straight away and UCC are a top division MSL side (even if not quite as strong as a few years ago).

Then take Newbridge Town, down a few divisions in the LSL, so the immediate thought is they'll be much weaker, but with no Klub Kildare involved at the moment, they'll likely have the choice of any players from there not wanted by Dublin LOI sides.

You'd expect Mayo and CK to be decent with the pick of their underage players coming through, plus local Junior players who want the opportunity to prove themselves in Senior football, and then we've got some very strong Junior clubs in areas that have no Senior football Cockhill Celtic, Salthill Devon, Mervue, Villa & Killarney Celtic (MSL being a Cork only league), Bonagee, Letterkenny. Pretty much all of these would be comfortable at a good level of Intermediate League if they existed for those areas.

No idea how good TUD are but I imagine they'd have a strong pick and rounded out by Home Farm in the 2nd tier of the LSL.

Even in a worst case scenario I imagine we'll get a league at least similar to the top division of the LSL and I envisage most of the talented young players in the underage League of Ireland who don't join League of Ireland clubs would look at playing for clubs involved in this league, rather than LSL or MSL clubs....... well unless significant money was involved to do otherwise.

Is it right to say they are expecting the 15 clubs to be expanded on before the season starts by next year? And definitely more for the 1st full season in 2027? 15 is an odd number to have, meaning one division will only 7.

I am also always surprised that St. Kevin Boys is never thrown into the hat in these conversations, considering how they used to be the powerhouse underage and how well known they are. Nearly closer to the main campus in DCU than Home Farm if I remember correctly too. I know some lads hate fantasy games, but St. Kevin Boys playing in Santry's Morton Stadium makes sense to me as a proper potential LOI club, more than Home Farm or St. Francis, but yet total lack of appetite there from anyone.

Also, I did read somewhere as well ATU were trying to enter, playing in Athlone. SETU as well in Carlow. Three Third Level Education linked teams in this National League.

Other details to be revealed are:
• Will the FAI Amateur Cup be for NL clubs only?
• At what round will NL clubs enter the FAI Cup and will they be guaranteed a place, ranking above LSL and MSL?

Looking at clubs who have enjoyed success in the FAI Intermediate and Junior Cups, might the lure of the mooted FAI Amateur Cup and access to the FAI Cup encourage clubs to want to play at a higher level?

All to be revealed in time. Be interesting to see how that dynamic unfolds. The competitive spirit of wanting to compete at a higher level is what will ultimately drive things on.

All for expanding the league but this is only spreading national level football to 3 new counties Mayo, Kildare & Kilkenny (two of which previously had team at nation level and it couldn't be maintained). Still 12 counties (if I'm counting right) with no club at national level(almost half of counties in the country)

So we now have:
8 Dublin Clubs
4 Donegal Clubs
3 each from Cork and Galway
2 each from Louth, Waterford & Kerry

It is disappointing that there wasn't more clubs from unrepresented counties who've put themselves forward. But the fact that there's 15 clubs with the window still open for some more to join them is a hugely positive step when it seemed like progress on the third tier had stalled.

I don't think any comparisons of this competition to the A championship are fair. Anything organised under that *****'s reign can be written off as dog****. I have much more hope that this tier of football has a future, particularly without any B teams.

The fact that each LOI club has an academy means there's 1000s of teenagers taking football really seriously. Having at least an extra 15 clubs playing at a national level will give a lot of these a better foundation to grow their game.

It is vital that these teams become clearly stronger in level and resources than the intermediate leagues. If all of the talent filters to these teams, playing summer football it might give the others something to think about if/when they start to fall behind.

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Originally Posted by Neish

Still 12 counties (if I'm counting right) with no club at national level(almost half of counties in the country)

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Seems more a matter of those regions getting their own houses in order. Is it necessary for every county to be represented at national level?
Leitrim and Roscommon seem like regions that will gravitate towards neighbouring national clubs. If Trim see themselves as the club to bring National League football to Meath, building through the youth leagues should be on their radar.
The FAI should possibly work with Clare, Tipperary, Cavan-Monaghan, Meath and Laois-Offaly from a strategic point of view to be part of the youth leagues at least. They'd have to be self sufficient and stand on their own feet.

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Originally Posted by Neish

All for expanding the league but this is only spreading national level football to 3 new counties Mayo, Kildare & Kilkenny (two of which previously had team at nation level and it couldn't be maintained). Still 12 counties (if I'm counting right) with no club at national level(almost half of counties in the country)

So we now have:
8 Dublin Clubs
4 Donegal Clubs
3 each from Cork and Galway
2 each from Louth, Waterford & Kerry

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Well firstly CK was very much formed as a Carlow-Kilkenny venture, and does represent both those counties not just Killenny. Currently they're playing out of Killeshin in Laois, and perhaps the changing of the name from Carlow-Kilkenny to CK was to make it more palatable for people from bordering counties to support them.

There was noise in Clare a few months ago about starting a LOI club, but obviously that takes time and best with them starting at underage. Perhaps it's better that a Junior club in Clare didn't manage to get in so far if that is the case.

Tipperary has some very strong Junior clubs, with good facilities as well, but anything that isn't a Gaa style county model here will struggle to get support across the county, and likely never be viable as a 1st Division (or above) club, so again maybe it's a good thing that the likes of St. Michael's, Peake Villa, Clonmel Town or Nenagh have made it into this league so far.

Cavan-Monaghan to enter but didn't meet the criteria at least so far, but imagine they'll continue efforts and be playing in a 3rd/4th tier in the next few years.

I think people are expecting too much too soon and expecting this to be a panacea for all things wrong with Irish football in one swoop.
It will bridge clubs transitioning into the 1st Division in future and give them somewhere to fall to if things go wrong.
It'll also help us fix our football pyramid from below up and have something to link onto, rather than having to meet the extremely high level of 1st division of LOI for sides potentially coming out of Junior football.