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The simple solution is to have a pyramid system, but you cannot get promoted beyond a third tier unless you have facilities and club structures in order to some set specific standard.
For what it's worth, there are suggestions out there that the third tier might actually happen next year. Local rumours here that the Ulster Senior League is folding in the next week and one or two of the teams are applying to the new third tier.
@EatYerGreens
Think of it like this. You want to speak to someone, but his office is on the fourth floor, the lifts are out-of-order and the stairs are blocked. Meaning that the only way of getting up there is via a rope ladder slung from a window on the fourth. Unfortunately the rope ladder doesn't quite reach all the way down to the pavement, it stops a few feet short, meaning you have to give it your best leap, hope to grab on the end and haul yourself up. And even if you can grab hold, you still need the energy to haul yourself up four levels and climb in the window. The risk of falling back and splatting on the pavement at any stage is so great that the vast majority won't even try, never mind succeed.
Now imagine someone starts building steps outside, which will reach up to the window. It won't be quick or easy, not everyone will have the stamina to climb the steps, some won't even try. And even for those who do, many won't quite make it that far, or will lack the extra energy to climb in through the window when they do. Worse still, once inside, you might not be allowed to stay for long and so will have to leave again. But at least the climb back down again won't destroy you.
I assume you see where I'm going with this - the LOI has the rope ladder, whereas the IL is building the steps (pyramid).
As for the financial difference between the two, then while the LOI office is on the fourth floor, the IL is still on the third, I get that. But it also means the steps to the third floor are fewer and shallower, making the climb more manageable. Now in another decade or so, the IL may well see a handful of f-t clubs with big money dominate more than ever i.e. the IL office will now move to the fourth floor. Which of course makes the climb up from the pavement and in through the window that much longer, while it will also be harder to remain inside if/when you finally make it.
But it still won't be impossible, for in the meantime the league will have added extra steps, narrow and steep though they may be.
So start building steps now, oh and from the ground up, not from the fourth floor down!
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
Some sort of licensing system...
Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
But not just from the third tier.
Assume your pyramid is organised as follows. 1. You organise the Junior clubs in Local, roughly equal/competitive leagues. 2. The best of these, both on and off the pitch, qualify for promotion to Intermediate level, whose clubs are organised Regionally, again in roughly equal/competitive leagues. 3. Finally, the best of the Intermediate clubs may gain promotion to Senior level, whether this latter comprises two or three divisions etc.
Obviously this will take years to implement - the IFA/IL started in 2011/12 (I think) and it's by no means finished yet, nor will it ever be, seeing as how things change all the time*. But during that time, you require all aspiring clubs at all levels to make improvements off the pitch, to keep pace with whatever progress they're making on it, by a combination of carrot (funding) and stick (sanctions, promotions denied etc).
* - The most recent version of the IFA's upgraded facilities requirements came in 2019, though these were then scuppered by Covid, meaning implementation is behind schedule. Anyhow, for anyone nerdy enough to scroll through it, it's surprisingly detailed: https://www.irishfa.com/media/41546/...a-nov-2019.pdf
Curiously, the NI equivalent in the North West, one of 4 x Intermediate leagues in the fourth tier, is also struggling badly, down to seven teams, when it really should have ten or even twelve:Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northe...mediate_League
Any word on which teams Nigel? Presumably Cockhill and Bonagee, given how well they've progressed in cups recently?Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
The only difference in this admittedly tortured analogy being that in the LOI the fourth floor is on fire. So it doesn't matter whether there are steps or a leap required to get onto the ladder, it would still be suicide to go up it.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I don't get why you can't see and accept this fundamental difference. The financial barrier to entry and survival is just so much higher in the LOI than it is in the IL. Please accept this, because it is demonstrably true. Which helps explain why a lot of potential clubs just aren't interested. Why the hell would they be when it could kill or seriously injure them financially?
Again - Loughall would get nowhere in the LOI, yet are now in the IL's top tier. From a village of just a couple of hundred people in an area which already has a number of other senior IL clubs. This is Exhibit A for how different the 2 leagues are, which youseem unwilling to acknowledge or accept.
Doesn't the North West have its own rather healthy league that is completely separate from the IFA?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
EDIT : This is it here = Derry and District League - Wikipedia
The only clubs interested in the League of Ireland are LoI clubs obviously and the additional clubs who have joined the youth leagues. If any progressive Intermediate clubs have LoI ambitions, the youth leagues are the natural starting point. Some people are engaging in fantasy pyramid discussion.
You... you spent literally years here singing loudly about fantasy pyramids (I believe UL made an appearance in some of your longlists), I appreciate you've moved onto the youth leagues as your new silver bullet but it's a bit jarring still to see you bemoaning pyramids nowadays. ?
How does your criteria feel about clubs like Ballymun or St.Francis (or even Irish Sea) who have either expressed an interest or directly applied for a license without entering the youth leagues?
It would be nice to see more clubs at any level of LOI I'll add but given the amount of clubs who have come and gone from the youth leagues over the years (Lifford anyone?) I wouldn't say it is close to likely that all (or any) of the existing crop without senior teams seriously aspire to having one.
Exactly. Costs around €150,000 a year for only the travel & food to run a nationwide League of Ireland first div team. Don't underestimate how big this is a barrier to entry. Loughgall wouldn't be anywhere near this with those crowds and would get into debt pretty quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Meanwhile clubs with potential are destroyed by dropping into amateur leagues. Ards? Distillery? Portadown? Replaced by Warrenpoint, Loughgall. No fans and zero potential to grow. It's a bit of a disaster. The amount of damage done has been multiplied.
At least when LOI teams collapsed in the past, they only dropped one division and made it back very quickly. Cork City, Derry City, Shels, Rovers... they didn't disappear into an amateur league through the pyramid. We can't afford to destroy clubs like they do elsewhere. Support them and they come back faster.
Maybe don't collapse so? Do we really want a league system which almost encourages financial malpractice? Look at Waterford - sure we'll go bust, wipe out debts, and start again in the same division. **** the creditors. Is that fair?Quote:
Originally Posted by Buller
As slk has said, if the likes of Portadown can't get their act together to dump no-fan clubs like Loughgall or Warrenpoint out of the IL Premier, that says a hell of a lot about how badly Portadown are run. (The idea that they're "destroyed by dropping into the amateur leagues" needs a large "citation needed" tag)
Why are we so keen to favour badly-run clubs just because they have more of a history than others?
Scrapping the A Championship was a disappointing decision. It was what it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
The youth leagues have been a great development and long overdue. If Ballymun, St Francis or Irish Sea are interested in joining, why have they not joined the youth leagues as a clear expression of interest?
When you're not bankrolled by a University and rely on attendances for primary income, it might be disastrous if you drop to an intermediate or amateur division like in NI, no matter how well run!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Who's bankrolled by a university?
UCD have been relegated to the First Division - which is a big drop - more than once and have been fine. We came from the LSL and the LoI B before that.
Letterkenny Rovers have been mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
This might be your funniest post on here.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Out of interest, how would that work for them?Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
The USL is disbanding because - there's no teams really? Or cost?
It seems to me going into an LoI third tier (surely there won't be enough interest to regionalise it?) would be a lot more expensive. Is it just that the Donegal league is the only other option for them, and they've a bit more ambition than that?
There's no secret they've always had an eye on the league. They took part in the old under-21 league back in the mid 2000's as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
They are well known to be paying their players, have a bit of local business backing, and would probably be best placed to be able to afford to step up.
The problem is, they have a team in the Donegal League already, as well as the USL, and they would absolutely see themselves as too big to drop back that far with their first team, so the next natural step would be this new LOI division.
They have very little in the way of support though and would have to do a lot to get crowds into Leckview Park, which is a very basic ground with a single 200 seater stand, and basic standing room around the pitch, tiny dressing room/clubhouse building, and little else going for them other than a very good location in Letterkenny.
Are they any good?
I know we beat them fairly handy in the FAI Cup a couple of years ago, but always hard to tell with those games because of the difference in seasons.
What do you mean by "on fire"? Were that the case, then everyone inside (PD) would perish. If you mean that the "big" PD clubs are in a different financial league from the rest, then fair enough, but even there, there are significant financial disparities within the PD between clubs like UCD, Harps or Drogs, compared with Shams, Cork, Derry etcQuote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Or how do you explain eg Scotland, where the Two Ugly Sisters suck the life out of the rest, yet a country of 5.5m can still somehow sustain a 42 team/4 division league pyramid, with Highland and Lowland feeder leagues beneath. Cove Rangers anyone?
You talk about "the LOI", as though it was one division. But teams coming up from a third tier wouldn't have to go straight into the PD (obv). The best/most sustainable should be able to find their level in the FD, until they grew, in time, to hope to go up another level.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Loughgall are an outlier - I doubt they'll last a season or two (max), just like their only previous short stay in the Prem, in the early noughties.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Which is hardly much different eg from Cobh (2008), Athlone (2014) or Wexford (2016) having their own solitary season in the sun.
In any case, I'm not saying that you should eg create a third tier next year or the year after and expect the top club or two to go straight into the FD the year after that - if anything, that is the opposite of what I'm suggesting.
Which is to build from the bottom up, rationalise your Junior clubs/leagues locally, then build up the best of those into a regionalised, Intermediate set-up, with ever more stringent requirements (financial, facilities, infrastructure etc) along the way, if participants are to achieve the appropriate License. So that eventually (10 years?) the best of the Intermediate clubs in a 3rd tier should be able to have a crack at the 2nd tier.
Or do you you have some alternative plan to expand the domestic professional game in ROI?
Or are you saying that a country like ROI can only ever be capable of sustaining a maximum of 17 or 18 Senior professional clubs, with some of those on a p-t basis?
And even then at the cost of occasional member clubs going bust every few years, only to re-emerge in a new wrapper, as though nothing had ever happened?
They’re not even the best team in their own town,Bonagee are miles better than them….Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Absolutely. And Bonagee probably have a better setup than then, but I'd doubt if they'll make the step up.Quote:
Originally Posted by joey B
How does eg Scotland manage it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Buller
For they've not just settled on their historic footballing history and infrastructure, but have looked to expand beyond their traditional confines eg by incorporating the Highland and Lowland leagues into their existing pyramid, with a further five tiers below them. While the travel/food costs etc, are just as onerous as in ROI.
While as a well-run club, I'd be very surprised if Loughgall allowed themselves to get into unsustainable debt - certainly not in order to stay in the Prem at all costs (literally).
"Destroyed"? "Amateur leagues"? What are you talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Buller
Ports and Ards have been bouncing between the Championship and Prem for a few years now, with Distillery comfortable enough in the PIL (3rd tier). They may be modest enough outifts, but with proper management Ports should easily be able to survive, even thrive, in the top tier. While Ards finally look like securing a new ground after a quarter century of homelessness, which could set them up for a return to their former status. All three clubs are part-time professional.
As for Warrenpoint or Loughgall, so what if they are/were never going to be top tier beyond the short term? So long as they're not getting hammered every week in the top flight, their example gives hope to other small or struggling clubs. In which regard, Warrenpoint replaced Newry for a period, after the latter went bust. However, since Newry's fans retained control of the Showgrounds, and NI has a pyramid, those fans were able to resurrect a phoenix club, come back in the fifth tier, and work their way back to the top flight within a few years, where in a neat piece of symmetry, they replaced Warrenpoint.
Or would you say that the likes of Newry, modest though they are, don't deserve their place in the top flight either?
And that's a recommendation for the league, is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Buller
Have you ever heard of the concept of "Moral hazard" (And no, his brother wasn't on the bench for Real Madrid last night). If clubs know they can blow their budget in a dash for silverware, and then suffer no real penalty if/when it all goes wrong, then that's exactly what some (many?) of them are going to do.
Maybe you feel their rather greater attrition rate somehow makes the LOI more attractive than the IL, but as I see it, this set-up doesn't just "reward" financial mismanagement amongst the existing clubs, it further closes down any places for aspiring replacement clubs.
And I repeat, the third tier of the IL pyramid is p-t professional. While there is also a bit of money some of the lower tiers, even if it is hardly more than generous petrol expenses. Either way, it isn't "amateur".
They're not just as onerous! Republic of Ireland is far more spaced out between population centers. The majority of Scotlands 5.4m population is highly concentrated in the lowlands an 1hr to 1.5hr drive between Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Scotland population distribution:
Scotland Population Distribution
ROI population distribution:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/com...eland_600x880/
Distillery are comfortable enough playing amateur football in part due to a pyramid? Fantastic but no thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I think its disastrous that you've flooded your top 2 leagues with amateur sides with nearly no potential for growth - pushing out well established clubs with real fanbases.
Call a spade a spade, you're describing amatuer football. In that case the LSL is p-t professional too.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I think clubs always try to avoid going bankrupt as a rule of thumb - don't think a pyramid features too much in playing budget meetings!!
It's bit naive to give advice on a pyramid system that has arguably not had much benefit up north, especially in an environment so conducive too it: small distances, concentrated clubs in Antrim, where travel expensive are virtually nil. If ROI was only Leinster - it'd be very easy to implement.
Crowds are booming here without a pyramid.
Wales is probably the most instructive template that the FAI could follow - the FAW administers the top three tiers, with the Cymru Premier the only centralised league, that devolves to the second-level Cymru North and South, and these in turn trickle down to four Ardal Leagues (NW, NE, SW, SE). These all have fixed infrastructural and licensing criteria, with leave to appeal by all unsuccessful clubs. Finally, there are fourth-level district leagues that correspond to our county level:Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
https://www.faw.cymru/en/news/mens-c...en/news/&pos=8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardal_Leagues
Like here, internal politicking delayed the process for some time, but the key difference is that all the leagues followed the same seasonal calendar.
Population distribution is one thing, club distribution is another. And the SFL has 42 members, as opposed to the LOI's 20, leading to the following travelling:Quote:
Originally Posted by Buller
SPL - Dingwall to Kilmarnock: 200 miles;
Championship - Inverness to Ayr: 210 miles;
League One - Peterhead to Dumfries: 245 miles;
League Two - Elgin to Stranraer: 270 miles.
Even the regionalised 5th tier Highland and Lowland leagues require significant travel eg Wick to Brechin = 215 miles, or Castle Douglas to Cowdenbeath = 130 miles.
Noun: Amateur:Quote:
Originally Posted by Buller
1. a person who engages in a pursuit, especially a sport, on an unpaid rather than a professional basis.
As for "flooding our top 2 leagues with amateur sides with nearly no potential for growth... ... [and] pushing out well established clubs", dear oh dear. I think you need to educate yourself on basic concepts like Promotion & Relegation. I know there's not a great deal of it to be seen in the LOI, but hey, even the Yanks get it:
https://worldsoccertalk.com/news/wha...ST-417286.html
P.S. Afaik, there are only two Amateur teams in the whole of the LOI (20 clubs) and the IL (24 clubs), Kerry FC and UCD. (Am open to correction on those two)
Er, there have been rather more Examinerships and Bankruptcies in the LOI than in the IL, despite the latter having more clubs, and (much) greater movement between the different levels*. As far as I can remember, the only one in recent years was Newry City, where a creditor pulled the plug on them and they went under. Fortunately, however, he couldn't get his hands on the Showgrounds, the fans took over, formed a phoenix club and started again in the fifth tier. And a few years later, they're back in the Premiership!Quote:
Originally Posted by Buller
Another notable example was Bangor FC, a long-established Senior club. They realised they were having trouble competing financially, but instead of fighting the inevitable, they voluntarily withdrew from the top tier (after fulfilling their fixtures btw) and dropped down to Intermediate football until they got their finances sorted out. And this season they've romped to the PIL title (3rd tier, Intermediate), and are hoping to go all the way to the Premiership in a redeveloped stadium.
Neither would have been possible had we not had a pyramid, instead two long-established Senior clubs would have disappeared.
As for "not much benefit up North etc", that's utter rot! Ask anyone in NI football and they'll all agree that the pyramid has been beneficial, not least in expanding Senior football to new areas outwith it's Belfast/Co.Antrim heartland, from Institute (Derry) to Warrenpoint, Castlederg to Loughgall and Ballinamallard to Lisburn etc.
* - It's that pyramid thing again
How much bigger would they be if you managed to expand outside the same bare handful of traditional centres?Quote:
Originally Posted by Buller
To take a comparison, in the top flight in NI, crowds have all but doubled in the last decade. And from 2021/22 to the season just ended, crowds are up by another 10%. Specifically, the top 10 teams are averaging 1,776. Not much compared with the crowds currently watching the LOI, you might say, until you consider this. The population of the ROI is 2.5 times that of NI, meaning that the same turnout down South would generate average PD crowds of 4,440 - you're still somewhat short*. None of which is to disparage LOI crowds and growth etc, I'm happy to acknowledge that they're highly impressive.
But I have no doubt whatever that the IL's crowds would be a lot lower had we not introduced the pyramid and were instead continuously watching the same old teams, in the same old locations, season after season after season.
* - And that's with the benefit of Derry City's crowds, which give a great boost from across the border to the LOI totals.
Well said, incl the bit about the seasonal calendar.Quote:
Originally Posted by culloty82
UCD are semi-pro, AFAIK, but Treaty are amateur, along with Kerry (and even Kerry ultimately plan to go part-time in future seasons when they get a better understanding of the returns or otherwise from this term).
I still don't get the concern here to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buller
Nobody's pushed out well-established clubs except themselves by being badly-run. Portadown seem to be permanently in crisis for example. Ards sold their ground almost 30 years ago and have been homeless ever since. There's nothing stopping Distillery getting out of the division they're in (third tier), but they haven't come close to managing it in seven years.
I don't understand why you're so keen to protect such badly-run clubs?
You say "Crowds are booming here without a pyramid" but the point is that we've been running out of clubs for a while now, to the extent that we've twice had to rely on Rovers to field a second team just to make up the numbers in the First Division. Literally every club bar Bray (and Kerry) to have joined the First Division since it started has gone bust. Some have disappeared altogether, others have used the opportunity to wipe off a huge amount of debt, knowing there's effectively no punishment. That's a ridiculous state of affairs.
I'm not sure why Distillery have cropped up in this coversation - maybe Ealing Green will correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like they've been irrelevant since they left Belfast.
They parachuted into a greyhound stadium on the outskirts of Lisburn and it's been a bit of a disaster. It seems there's a new club in Lisburn these days - Ballymacash Rangers - who could be in the Championship in a couple of season.
I know there were certain reasons for it but a couple of years ago I think Institute were playing in a public park in the Championship before they moved to Brandywell.
The question is probably what do we want to achieve by introducing a third tier and/or pyramid structure. It's far from ideal having basket case clubs in the league with no threat of relegation but at the same time it has given Kerry the opportunity of establishing themselves in the league without the pressure of needing to get points on the board. If they had to immediately bring in experienced League of Ireland journeymen from Cork/Limerick/Galway/Dublin I have no doubt the crowds would have fallen away by now.
For me, what the league needs, is to have a wider appeal around the country, so that's why I'd be in favour of the likes of CK United, Monaghan, Mayo who have established roots with academies in place - the introduction of academies I think is one of the reasons in the surge in attendances at matches - there are so many people with a connection through a friend/relative/neighbour being a player at some level - so a connection is then made to the first team.
Tipperary is another obvious area but would a club like St Michael's be sustainable at LoI level? Would anyone outside Tipp Town go to support them? Does that restrict the potential of the club that they've always been rivals with Clonmel Town for example?
Ultimately, as someone has mentioned, at the moment it would be financial suicide for St Michael's to join the LoI so until that changes we're just going to be left with the status quo and maybe a few jumped up academies and a couple more University sides to emulate UCD, though I would prefer if existing clubs established those links with universities as UCD have shown there isn't really much in the way of support for those teams, which I think is kind of important for the image of the league.
I think though the Kerry situation should be what we're trying to avoid - a club coming in and running the risk of losing all early momentum and goodwill with a series of crap results. It's what happened Cabo (who also didn't remotely have the facilities in place, apart from a big academy, and I agree with you that I think it's a definite help) and others before. Too soon they end up playing in front of 300-400 people and it's a real struggle to build from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by JC_GUFC
So while I agree with your "What do we want to achieve" goal, I don't think the current setup is the way of doing it.
I also think with a pyramid, you take away the question of working out which towns can support a league team. The structure will naturally provide the answer. And it might be somewhere nobody considered before.
Yep, Ports have been badly run for some time - buthat hardly makes them unique in the world of football, whether in Ireland or elsewhere. While the essentials are still there (stadium, support, location, history) until such times as they should get it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Ards buggered up, no doubt, but they finally look like returning to the town, up the road from their old ground:
https://planetradio.co.uk/cool-fm/lo...tadia-funding/
While they would never have survived this long without being able to groundshare with neighbours Bangor, who themselves would never have survived without the pyramid:
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/f...ht-bid-3262754
As for Distillery, I don't think it's overstating it to say they were a (direct) victim of The Troubles. And if for various reasons their future in Lisburn is likely to be as an Intermediate club, that's partly because they're being overtaken by their Lisburn neighbours, Ballymacash Rangers.
The Cash are a very progressive club who have developed terrific facilities from scratch in just a few years. For their extensive community involvement, they're similar to eg Mullingar Athletic, the only difference being that having gone from Junior football to Intermediate football, they are determined to go all the way and give Lisburn its own home-grown Senior club for the first time:
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/f...isburn-2925442
Once again, none of this would have been possible without there being a pyramid, indeed such clubs wouldn't even have tried.
I think it was 'Buller' who brought them into the conversation(?), but anyhow, Distillery are no more "irrelevant" than a club like Monaghan Utd or Cabinteeley, except that if ever they have a revival in fortune, they still have a clear route back to Senior status.Quote:
Originally Posted by JC_GUFC
While for information, for the last five seasons in the top tier (to 2012/13), they still managed crowds of c.400 at Ballyskeagh, and that at a time when the divisional average was not much more than 800, itself half the figure today (c.1,600).
Institute's ground at Drumahoe was very tidy - 3k capacity with half of those seated - I'd say better than many in the LOI FD, maybe even one or two in the PD? The ground was then completely flooded out after the 2017/18 season started, so they moved into a nearby municipal ground as an emergency measure. At the end of that season they moved to the Brandywell, while they tried to sort out Drumahoe.Quote:
Originally Posted by JC_GUFC
Unfortunately they couldn't get Planning Permission from the Council to install flood barriers, since that would just have transferred the problem further downstream to a more populated area. And even if they could, the flood brought in Japanese knotweed, meaning they could never get insurance.
However they've now got the go-ahead to build a ground as the centrepiece of a new sports hub in the Waterside:
https://www.derryjournal.com/sport/f...erside-4019517
In which context Stute are another interesting case. For the first 90-odd years of their existence they were a Junior team, albeit one of the more prominent ones. Then when DCFC moved to the LOI, they saw an opportunity to achieve first Intermediate status, then Senior. Some of this predated the present IL pyramid, but there's no doubt it has been assisted greatly on its way by the new structure.
And seeing as they were attracting 4-500 a decade ago, when crowds generally were v.low, there's no reason why, in the new stadium and with good management, they couldn't aspire to crowds approaching four figures if they got to the IL Prem, which should be enough to sustain p-t professional football. Which imo wouldn't be too shabby, considering they're very much the second team in a city of fewer than 100k.
Expansion?Quote:
Originally Posted by JC_GUFC
Comparing (Greater) Dublin with Belfast, there's no good reason why the former couldn't sustain another Senior club or two at the level of some of the existing ones. While Cork is much bigger than Derry for instance, yet unlike Derry, I'm not sure it's ever had more than one Senior club?
Unless footballing people in ROI are happy to carry on with the same 18 or 20 Senior clubs, with only a yawning chasm below?
It's only since Cork City was founded that it's only had one club in the League - for many decades it was Cork Celtic and Cork Hibs, the latter were succeeded by Cork Alberts briefly, and the former were previously Evergreen United. Even that potted narrative doesn't tell half the story!Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Writing centered around 'senior' status is really just a meaingless discussion of language. 'Senior' could be gifted through promotion of a club with an incidentally strong team, though fundamentally otherwise unchanged as club, into a higher division for a passing period, or even thorough the fairly arbitrary rebranding of an intermediate division as a senior division. Neither changes the reality of the club itself, it isn't a relevant yardstick for progression, nor even a coherent grading system. It is solely a label. Linguistics semantics is great and all that but be aware of what you're doing.
I thought the posts about Letterkenny Rovers etc. however were interesting. It must be difficult for a club who have in part defined themselves by their (relatively) elevated platform competing at a level of competition that they would view as above that of the majority of surrounding clubs to be faced with the prospect of joining the Donegal League. Could attempting to dominate the Donegal League really compensate for a club like that? What if their current peers (at least Bonagee) join and as a result LK fail to compete? There's even the potential reduction in prestige for their 'second' team to consider. You can see how the third tier would appeal really.
Sorry, but that's nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by cláirseach
In order to progress to Senior status, clubs need to acquire a Licence. This covers minimum standards of stadia, finance, facilities, qualified staffing, safety etc. These standards increase as you progress up the ladder. And it's not just an end-of-year exercise, Licensing requirements are monitored throughout the season, as outlined here:
https://www.irishfa.com/irish-footba...club-licensing
All of which is a hot topic in the IL just now. In the season just ended, Warrenpoint finished 2nd in the Championship (2nd tier), which would normally qualify them for a Promotion/Relegation play-off against the team finishing second bottom of the Prem, Dungannon Swifts. However, they've hit a major problem.
For in order to renew their Licences for next season, clubs have to have all their final Licencing documentation in with the IFA Licensing Committee by 31st March. The Committee has until 15th April to review them, then issue the new Licences. However, when the looked at Point's details, they found that there was an outstanding bill owed to HMRC (£14k?). And even though Point paid it in full by 14th April, the Licence was refused, since 31 March is a strict cut-off.
Point appealed (twice), but have been turned down both times, despite being represented by Barristers etc. They're now looking to Arbitration, but if that doesn't work, they won't be allowed to play in either the Prem or the Championship next season. In fact, it's not altogether clear yet whether they'll be allowed to play in the Premier Intermediate League (3rd tier) - they may have to go down to whichever 4th tier league will have them.
And it's because the IFA is pretty tight on this sort of thing that we haven't seen clubs getting into financial difficulty, or even going bust entirely, as (ahem) certain other leagues have had to endure.
Nor is the granting of Licences all a "negative", since Licensing requirements are constantly being upgraded, which should be seen as a "positive" imo. Therefore before Loughgall will be permitted to play home Premiership games at Lakeview next season, they have to make improvements. They're rushing to get these done in time for next season, but if not complete by the start, they've had to nominate Glenavon's ground until Lakeview is ready. This is despite the fact that it was deemed adequate when the club were in the top tier a few years back.
Anyhow, with a capacity of 3k and a grass pitch, I'd guess it's better than one or two grounds in the LOI:
https://img1.wsimg.com/isteam/ip/43b...r=w:1200,h:600
While they have ambitious plans to improve the ground further, funding permitted:
https://www.armaghi.com/news/loughga...toilets/168239
But yeah, it's probably just semantics...
Thank you for the 450 word explanation of what licencing is, but your lengthy post didn't address or show any understanding of the post you were replying to. Senior is a meaningless term to apply across leagues. It does not have a fixed meaning and is not a standardised internationally or, indeed through time.
A very good location in a fast growing town of 20,000 people sounds like a fairly decent starting point tbh. The stadium can always be improved. Is there space at the site to do that ?Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954