Yes and I think we do need to go to 4-3-3 and leverage Ogbene's tirelessness on the right to support on that side and deepest of the front 3 when out of possession.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
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Yes and I think we do need to go to 4-3-3 and leverage Ogbene's tirelessness on the right to support on that side and deepest of the front 3 when out of possession.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
It's Ferguson plus one for me, except maybe against Gibraltar type teams. Connolly the latest to put his hand up to be the plus one. Obviously at least two more bench options needed also, but we have about eight forwards competing for that one starting support forward position. Would guess Ogbene remains the man in possession right now, but it's wide open really.
The problem as I see it with that is we are so short on full backs. Basically in a 4 we would only have o shea and Coleman as full backs. Manning doherty o dowda mcclean ebosele Stevens all wing backs all poor at defending even as wing backs definitely no where near good enough in defending as full backs. O shea poor going forward from full back and Coleman injured for the time being . Ogbene just not good enough in my opinion for us to be setting up the whole team to fit him in when we don't have full backs and don't have another natural wide player for the front three with johnson injured. Ogbene is poor technically lacks guile his game is based on pure pace and workload . That opportunity he butchered when he couldn't play the pass to put ferguson in against France just sums him up great athlete great pro great workrate but no where near the level of creative player you need to qualify for a tournament and certainly not the level that you decide to go back to a 4 at the back when you have no actual full backs of an international standardQuote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
Okay. I think Ogbene has done well for Ireland. And I don't think 3-5-2 works anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
I would gladly see us go to 4 at the back and if it were Coleman, Egan, Collins and O'Shea then I wouldn't be upset.
I think the 5 has a chance of working if you drop egan play collins centrally play I shea to the left and omobamidele right with manning and ebosele wing backs. That let's yiu push your wing backs high because you have pace in your centre halves which we don't have when we play egan and your full backs are athletic enough to get up and back which unfortunately doherty just wasn't in Greece which gave us issues. That allows you have a midfield 3 of Cullen molumby and smaallbone with knoght a good backup who don't have to cover all the wide areas in midfield by themselves because you can push your wingbacks high into this space and fill the space behind by pushing your back three high cause you have the pace to recover . In Greece our back 5 sat so deep poor small bone was ran ragged covering the wide area in 2/ 3 rds of the field. That let's you have ferguson up top with players like parrott, connolly and obafemi who can compliment him in different ways and players like idah and keane who maybe offer him backup . A set up like that let's you compress the game and keeps you compact with a keeper like Kelleher or bazunu who are comfortable having a starting position high in their area and prepared to swerpQuote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
Going a bit off topic here but I think there will have to be a discussion about Egan fairly soon. He's not particularly fast or a particularly good ball player, and some of his defending for both club and country in the last year has been poor. Not at all sure he's one of our best three or four centre backs at the moment.
I agree here. Has built a great career and a great pro. There is a reason though that he has never been signed by a side in the Premier league or any other top league in Europe. He hold our kine far too deep because he doesn't trust his pace(rightly) and doesn't have that ability to step out land play ike a collins has. If your holding a deep defensive line you have no chance of having your midfield andvsttack connected unless you have top top athletic technical midfielders which obviously we don't have. You end up then with your midfield dropped into your backl8ne with way too much distance between your midfield and attack which makes you toothless which we certainly are regardless of the attacking personel we playQuote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
I'd play a back four also, with Dara O'Shea at RB. Collins and Egan at CB.
You could also play Omobamidele at RB, O'Shea at LB if just looking for pure defensive solidity.
I think you get nothing going forward if you play those centre backs as full backs and you don't have the quality of wide forward players higher up the pitch to make up for it in terms of creativity . If you had mcgeady and duff at their peak and some kind of vague creativity in centre midfield I could maybe see the argument for playing the centre backs as fullbacks but not with what we have in those wide forward and creative midfield positionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Strongbow10
I think Omobamidele should be in midfield - protection in front of a back four - and he is able to pass the ball (Collins could also play this role). We have a few CBs and we need to get one of them into the old Paul McGrath role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strongbow10
Rosenior said after the game that Connolly isn't fit and can't play for more than 30 minutes - said he had a lot of work to put in to improve his fitness.
Connolly is a bit chunky but I reckon he might look that way even if fully fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
Interesting take on Wolves v Brighton at the weekend in the Guardian (fourth talking point on the list).
Is the use of a strike partnership the next tactical step in football? Wolves and Brighton both started – and played most of the latter’s 4-1 win at Molineux – in 4-4-2 formations
If three man midfields have been in vogue for about 25 years, and 442 for 25 years before that, we're probably due a tactical shift of some sort. We've probably always been better suited to 442 than any other formation, and it might allow us to make better use of our strike talent - two strikers unlikely to score are still more likely than one on his own! - but whether it's really coming into fashion again, who knows?
Little and Large might make a comeback ! !Quote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
4-4-2 usually only worked for us in the sense that we completely bypassed central midfield when attacking, so there wasn't much point having three in there anyway. In defence we tended to sit our two centre midfielders deep in front of the centre backs to avoid being overrun (and then launched the ball long again once back in possession).
I'm not sure that works anymore, unless we're planning on going back to a very simplistic style of play. When playing any kind of passing game, three in midfield generally beats two in midfield eventually, as the extra man just gives you more chance of gaining control in that area. If anything I could see any future change in the game being towards a fourth central midfielder - so you could maybe have a variation on our current 3-5-2 where one of the centre backs pushes forward into midfield when we're in possession to create an effective four man centre midfield (Hi Nathan, you're up). A few teams have tried something similar to this previously I think, it is/was known as "overlapping centre backs" in that case (though slightly different as the centre back often overlapped into wider areas). Such a system puts a lot of responsibility on your full backs/wing backs to cover huge areas of the field though.
I’d play a 4-3-3 - I know why we moved to a 5-3-2 / 5-2-3 but I think it really hinders domination and control of the game. And we play more players out of position in it than the other way round.
I fully believe Doc can play at right back, and i also think Manning can come play at left back. He played a season at Swansea as a LCB.
Bazunu in goal
Doc on the right. (Backup Coleman)
Collins and one of Egan, Duffy, Omobamidele, O’Shea at centre back
Manning or O’Shea on the left
Cullen and Molumby deep, with Smallbone a little more advanced.
Ogbene on the right wing
Connolly or Johnston on the left
Ferguson up top.
Ferguson and a rejuvenated Connolly could make an interesting front two, if Connolly can stay fit and living as a professional footballer should.
We don't have the out and out fullbacks to play a straight back four right now against anyone decent. Well, we have one, but he's 34. Doherty and Manning just can't do it, it's not their game, they are wing backs. The alternatives are worse again.
Do a Man City and put four CBs across the defence. First and foremost you want your defenders to be able to defend. Apart from Coleman I wouldn't be highlighting the defensive capabilities of O'Dowda, Manning, Doherty, or Brady as positives. Three of them are wingers and Doherty is a FB that's only looked good when playing WB.
Don't see us getting second but it's still mathematically there till we at least play the Greeks. Think a lose to the Dutch and it's still not mathematically gone unless we fail to get three points at home to Greece. Don't see us getting a play off either as some teams below us in the NL are performing well in their groups.
So that will likely leave us with two friendlies in March and at least two in the summer. Whomever the manager is should roll the dice and use the friendlies next year to cap the young LBs in the U21s. U21s only have San Marino in March and no qualifiers in June. Won't get a more perfect time to try it out with the NL now bringing in promotion and relegation playoffs for all the leagues.
I always wondered if Manning could play left of a midfield 3 - similar to the Brady role at Euro16?
That was where he played with the 21s along with Cullen and Rice. Looked both good and bad in that role. Probably a reason he’s found his home at LB/LWB/LCB - although I think he lacks pace at LWB to really be an outstanding option there
Manning was very much an attacking winger in the LOI before going over to England.
Manning and Ebosele were both very poor defensively this past weekend
Wasn't Brady just a straight LB at Euro 2016?Quote:
Originally Posted by MylesNotMiley
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
Only in the opener against Sweden. Ward played the next 3 games at LB.
Actually I didn’t think Ebosele was that bad defensively, has certainly improved his tracking back and tackling since Italian move. I’d have no qualms playing him.
To me, Manning is like a poor man’s Ian Harte. Nice going forward, delivers some good balls, and contributes with some goals. Awful defender. He was bad at the weekend against
Plymouth, God only knows how he will do at international level. I don’t get the clamor for his inclusion internationally, he’s not for me anyways.
Agree on Manning 100%
Playing with WBs there's some leeway when it comes to the defensive side. They've got extra protection around them. He's also got something which we lack and that's someone with a decent delivery of the ball whether from open play or set pieces.
Himself and O'Dowda are poor defensively but his positives definitely outweighs O'Dowda's positives given our best chances of scoring is getting good deliveries into the box.
The clamour, such as it is, around Manning is down to our dwindling options elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy_c12000
Coleman is injured and probably starting into his last season as a Premier League player (given Everton's trajectory, if nothing else). McClean is injured and while I wouldn't rule out Kenny sticking with him until the end of the campaign, we've never capped someone in the fourth tier, and for good reason. Brady is injured I think; hasn't made the bench for Preston yet this season. Stevens is back starting in the Championship after an injury-hit spell but he's 33 and I think past his best.
Doherty has played all of 16 minutes since mid Jan but may be the only one of the old guard we have available for Sept. Browne and O'Dowda seem to be the succession plan to that lot, but I don't really buy it. They're being shoe-horned into the position.
So it entirely makes sense to consider a player on the Championship Team of the Season. We're desperate for options here. Others - Ebosele (also poor at the weekend it seems), McNamara, Lyons (but he's dropped a division) - who else?
Realistic options for RB/RWB:Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Matt Doherty
Seamus Coleman
Danny McNamara
Jon Gallagher
Festy Ebosele
Less realistic options:
Cyrus Christie
Andy Lyons
Peter Kioso
Lee O’Connor
James Abankwah
Sam Curtis
Realistic options for LB/LWB:
James McClean
Ryan Manning
Callum O’Dowda
Less realistic options:
Robbie Brady
Ends Stevens
Liam Scales
Joel Bagan
Derrick Williams
Alex Murphy
It is LB/LWV where you can't help but be most nervous. Really do think a call-up for Murphy would be a good move. He probably has the highest ceiling among that crop, has come a long way in a short time and it would be good for Kenny to get a close look at him. I'm not saying he starts but you cant put your faith in McClean, O'Dowda or Manning as long term answers to that problem. Dara O'Shea has played there before, not ideal and not his natural side but might be a stop-gap option too.
Yep. Good list from elated - Alan Browne is missing from it, but I think he's being shoehorned into position too to be honest. Not his fault of course but I feel he's being played out of position there. Probably a bit harsh to label Brady a "less realistic option" too, though as he seems to be injured again I don't think he's in the frame from September, and he's certainly not getting any younger or any more injury-free.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
I'd have Manning over Murphy in fairness. The higher ceiling isn't really relevant if that ceiling is a few years off.
James Furlong has to be on the list for LWB. Played very well in his first season at Motherwell and in Brightons plans after they rejected bids for him from Poland.
I dont really disagree to be honest. But if you lose McClean (and I think now is the time) and O'Dowda is as bad as his performance against Greece was then you really only have Manning who just has not been sufficiently involved and tested at this level. I'm not advocating starting Murphy just a bit of a fast track to the squad to see how he competes. I think its fairly low risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I wouldn't mind both in the squad in fairness. But we've seen plenty of times that initial excitement over a young player fades a bit as they actually play, so while I wouldn't mind him being called up to give him experience, he may benefit more from a 21s debut, which I think he has earned.
O'Dowda is another I'd like to find a place for in the squad, but not at wingback. Like Browne, I don't think it's his fault he didn't play well when (I think) out of position
It'll be an interesting squad selection cos we've plenty injuries in positions we're stuck for anyway (wingback and up front). There's room for a curve-ball option and for someone to stake a claim to a starting spot. Connolly arguably being the obvious example (to get back on topic!)
I think O'Dowdas performance against Greece is a bit overstated. Yes he got caught for 2nd goal but if Lenihan wasn't way out of position the gap behind O'Dowda wouldn't have been as bad. The handball was just unlucky. Manning is not the step up from him that some people thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Suggesting O'Dowda's Greece performance wasn' t that bad or just an aberration doesn't seem quite right when we look, for example, at how badly he was caught out at club level just the week before last against QPR, costing his side a goal.
I think it's quite telling that when Cardiff played Leicester away on Saturday - obviously one of the best teams in the league - they pushed O'Dowda further forward, stationing Jamilu Collins behind him at left back.
He just isn't a very good defender; his virtues lie elsewhere.
Now, whilst he may not play for Real Madrid, Manning was by common consensus the best left back in the Championship last season, earning a move to one of the best teams in that league, as well as credible Premier League interest from Luton and Sheffield Utd.
McClean's clear decline and, presumably, international career-ending drop to the fourth tier, means that, if he wasn't already, and like it or no, Manning is clearly the best option available to us for the left wingback role given the system and style of play the manager wants us to play. The fact he cannot even make Kenny's squads is certainly puzzling.
You can't help but suspect that some of the comments you see from certain Ireland supporters seeking to play down or dismiss this obvious point - and Manning as a footballer - is down to a deep-rooted loyalty to Kenny, and viewing other fans' advocacy of Manning as implicit criticism of their man.
I don't think the last paragraph is needed, but other than that I fully agree.
I think O'Dowda started out for us as a creative attacking mid or something? Always found it strange that he's ended up as wingback.
I think he's just a victim of the current trend of teams -- at club and international level -- preferring to play with wingbacks. The fact he's left footed and there's always very few of those in any given squad means managers will just slot him in there by default.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
My view is that his best position would probably be as an old school wide player in a 4-4-2, but not many teams use that formation these days.