I suppose the thought experiment here is what happens if Bazunu goes back to City next season and becomes their No 2. Would he cease to be the preferred choice of his current advocates because he wasn't playing enough games?
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I suppose the thought experiment here is what happens if Bazunu goes back to City next season and becomes their No 2. Would he cease to be the preferred choice of his current advocates because he wasn't playing enough games?
It's a very reasonable position. I think there's two separate questions here:Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
1. Which goalkeeper is the best choice for Ireland right now?
2. What would be best for Kelleher in terms of his development?
On 1, I'd have no problem seeing Kelleher start for all the reasons you and others have given. If we didn't have a wunderkind (shudder) gk with so much time on his side then I'd pick Kelleher now. It's close as Travers probably deserves a go too but....I think Kelleher maybe edges it based on how they've both done for Ireland. That said, Bazunu took his chance and looks like a phenomenal prospect who might be even better given more games and by the time he is 23. Given that we are sort of building a team for future tournaments that has to come into the equation too.
On 2, I get the argument that maybe Kelleher needed something different and he's certainly not in a bad spot BUT I don't see why people find it controversial at all for some of us to say he should go get himself a #1 spot. I think that would help him experience more scenarios (see the situation recently where he made a mess of coming out and should have been sent off) and also, if he really is as good as he has looked (most of the time), it would secure the Ireland jersey for him now.
Here's a completely not serious one for you - if Kelleher really does play up front in training, with Salah and against Virgil, then is he our de facto best option up front, ahead of the lads playing at a lower level? I'm not saying that's the same scenario because he's playing games but....he'd be learning from the best at one of the best clubs in the known and unknown universe etc. So how much weight do we give that over game time?
But he would have played enough games....Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
To respond to your final question. None whatsoever. It's a beautiful attempt at an analogy (not serious), but there is no visible evidence that he is any good playing up front, whereas his goalkeeping skills are very much in evidence. I started art classes back in November, the teacher was brilliant, so were the other students, I learned a great deal from them. The principle lesson being that I was pretty useless.
Pretty useless might still get you a game up front for Ireland.....Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
Is there a mathematical answer to what constitutes enough? Will the fact that Bazunu and Travers will always have have played more games make them more qualified, or is there a figure that Kelleher has to reach to establish quits? It's all a bit hazy. I think he has established by virtue of what he has already done, that he's ready to play regular international football.
Fair point.Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
I think a season of football would be good for him but Im also not saying he isn't good enough to play for Ireland. He's just not the clear cut choice. He might be if he had a few seasons behind him and had been fit to take his chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
The debate has definitely become more interesting. I have been, and remain at this point, firmly in the "Bazunu keeps the jersey" camp. He owns it, has not let us down in green and is playing notably well at club level. Kelleher has made ground though, and significantly so, in the last couple of months. While his body of work is limited to an extent, he has played in more high profile games at club level than Bazunu has (notwithstanding that Bazunu has Portugal away under his belt). Not sure that high profile means as much in terms of the gaps between first team appearances but it means something and i certainly would not have any issues if Kelleher's services were required for Ireland, for whatever reason. His profile and performances keep the pressure on Bazunu to perform in green which hopefully is a positive thing all round.
had he been fit to play against Serbia and/or Luxembourg and had he matched Bazunu's performances, he'd be the undisputed first choice, so would Travers if he had taken his opportunity against Serbia and continued with the same performances as Bazunu had.Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
I think Bazunu has basically has had 10 good games, conceding 7 goals, keeping 4 clean sheets.
Do I think Kelleher has the ability right now to produce similar performances? Yes. Hard to imagine he could have done much better than Bazunu did during those games.
Going forward, I suspect it'll be performances for Ireland along with fitness that will dictate opportunities for the 3 keepers...
Kelleher is doing well in the games he has been given for Liverpool, but for the argument that at this stage of his career that 5 or 6 games per season is enough because he is playing at a big club, I would ask at what point do people think he needs to play regular football?
We all agree he is a good keeper, but some of us continue to think he would get better by playing every week. Travers has improved massively with regular games. Should he wait until hes 25, 28, 35 before he looks to be 1st choice somewhere? If Allison wasnt so young I think his situation would be less of an issue, but as it stands he is the oldest of our 3 keepers and has played by far the least amount of football. Hes not a kid anymore, he needs to aspire to being more than a back up
Yeah that's how I feel at this stage. Kelleher has answered some but not all of the questions around him and I've seen enough to think he would have done really well for Ireland if he'd been available to take the chance. Bazunu is a freak though and he's gone in and done brilliantly. The lad is 19 ffs. It's scary how good he might be even by 23.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
I'm still very much in the camp of us having 3 good options, 2 of whom are potentially world class.
why do you think all he aspires to be is a back up? hes a 23 year old gk at one of the best club teams of the last decade. the idea he should turn his nose up at that alone, to play for a lower league team just so he can play some games is mad. he has outgrown the loan market and will in all likelihood be sold when liverpool see fit. He is the oldest but as a ive said on numerous occasions hes the one who started playing in goal the latest of the 3. he had a whole pile of catching up to do. Bazunu made his senior debut as a 16 year old, CK hadnt 2 years of gk coaching behind him at that point. for one reason or another liverpool didnt loan him out when it was rumoured(?) 2 years ago. their development of him cant be questioned imo, theyve nurtured him well and havent rushed him into anything.t.He will need game time eventually, he'll know that, he's not stupid. But I honestly dont see it as a negative that he wanted to be a no2 at this stage of his career, at a team of this stature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd2793
If he started playing later its more important that he actually plays football. Again I ask the question at what age do you think he needs regular football?
When hes 25. Liverpool wont be risking a loan move they'll sell when his stock is high. Cant see him there in 2 years time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
His stock wont get much higher than it is right now so it would be a good time to sell if they got good offers. Im not sure how much of a market there would be for a 25 year old goal keeper who has had about 10 total career games
Not starting tonight unfortunately….
Is the name pronounced "kevin?"
No
It's pronounced Caoimhín
Keeveen or Kweeveen depending on where in the USA you are based.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
Has anyone ever paid huge money for a goalkeeper that has played as few as games as Kelleher ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd2793
Not even Joe HartQuote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
I can’t remember if anyone paid that much for him after so few games ~ ~ He certainly didn’t turn out to be as good as some expected anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
leicester paid 14 mil for danny ward he played 3 games for liverpool. CK has homegrown status too will add a few mil to a fee.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
14 Mil is a lot for Danny Ward ~ Leicester must have a lot of money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd2793
I'd say Man City feel he was worth every cent of the £100k they paid Shrewsbury for him. He did have 50+ league appearances at that stage too for whatever that adds to the debate. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Not quite the same but Villa paid 20 million for Emi Martinez. Martinez’ career path offers encouragement for Kelleher. I’d like Kelleher to get his big break earlier but Martinez shows that being a patient number 2 can be a viable career path.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
The belief was that Kasper Schmichael (spelling?) and we going to Chelsea to replace Courtois - wages were agreed and fee was close to agreed. They pre-emptively bought Ward to be their number 1. Then Chelsea u-turned and bought Kepa instead for a world record fee, which meant Schmichael stayed.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Ward is of course Wales’ number 1.
What keepers want is clean sheets, not more shots. At least in matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by samhaydenjr
Kelleher has excelled in every performance for Liverpool, often the man of the match. And that's a massive achievement with the team mates he has and the level he's playing at. He's played 2 games for Ireland and hasn't conceded a goal yet either. If Klopp thinks he's the best No
2 in the world, the least he deserves is the chance to make the No. 1 spot his, for Ireland.
Extremely talented keeper. But as we’ve been saying for years now, he needs a solid season of senior football under his belt. As I said 12 months ago, he needs to be ballsy (like Bazunu) and push for a move away from Anfield this summer, (I think I mentioned “a broken record” the last time, it’s just getting old now). Liverpool are being selfish (and self serving) and don’t have his best interests at heart. It’s up to Caoimhin to push for it. He’s firmly number 3 for me since Travers began to start regularly for Bournemouth. We can’t have a keep with only 4 senior league appearances be number 1 for our country.
Kelleher has played in a cup final at Wembley , champions league and league games for a top 2 side in England and been excellent with widespread praise from observers in the UK and Liverpool fans but strangely only begrudging acknowledgement from many foot.ie posters. I would love if there were a few more players in our squad who might be of that quality to be able to do the same at some stage of their careers.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy_c12000
He needs to making a big start on the 100 Professional games ~ ~ who ever heard of a top goal-keeper that had played only a few professional games ~ ~ Tis time too be pee-ing on the pottys.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy_c12000
Exactly this. If (and I stress if) we're in a situation next season where, potentially, Travers and Bazunu are both playing regularly in the Premier League and Kelleher is content with the odd League Cup tie and crossing his fingers Allison comes down with a bad flu I can't see how there's any case to be made for Kelleher having any claim on Ireland's number one shirt. He'll be 24 in November and also has 24 senior games under his belt (if you include 1 for Liverpool's stiffs in the Papa Johns), he's at the stage now where I can't see any downside from a loan move. If he's as good as Klopp says that loan would inevitably be at a very high level anyway and surely a recall clause could protect Liverpool's interest too in case of disaster. If Liverpool have any pretence at him being a genuine contender to replace Allison and not just a handy backup surely they'd want him to get a run of games too?Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
A 24 year old with just that many games as first choice for the Republic of Ireland when you consider what the other two alternatives have done up to this stage = = It doesn’t make any sense = = Ok things may change but it doesn’t make any sense at the moment anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
Expected to stay at Liverpool next season:
https://www.liverpool.com/liverpool-...-city-24294834
Another game he would have started missed due to injury:
“Yeah, Caoimh felt something after the international game and everybody, the medical department there, told him it’s fine and will be good after holiday,” Klopp said.
“He came back and first training [session] felt it again. We checked it and it was not good so I think Caoimh will be another two, three weeks and then he should be fine.
He picks up a lot of injuries for goalkeeper who doesn't play very often. Is it the same injury recurring or is he just unlucky enough to be picking up random stuff at unfortunate times?
it seems like it's incredibly badly timed. like he'll be healthy for 4 months when alisson is fit and then the moment alisson picks up a knock, he does too. same in an ireland shirt, his injury was what gave bazunu and opportunity back at the start of the campaignQuote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
Yeah he's had no luck. Strange for a keeper to pick up so many injuries though. Is it happening during training? I wonder is he still playing outfield a bit. I'm sure Liverpool wouldn't be risking that if there was a chance of injury but I'm still struggling to see how he's injured so often in his position.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Do Liverpool sublet him out to do Door-Work ?
I seem to remember Kirkwood having fierce injury problems while at Liverpool as well. Is there any scouse detective that could look in to this ?