Barstool facepalm

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Are you serious? Do you really think that LOI fans are confronting or challenging non LOI fans, 'badgering' them, looking for them to justify their non-attendance? That's a ludicrous notion, and not in any way a rational interpretation of the comments on this thread either.

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When terms like "excuse" are used, it indicates what I perceive to be a mindset that does nobody any favours. It sounds like a supporter is looking for justification for non-attendance when they speak of someone requiring an "excuse". I was just trying to demonstrate why that mindset might seem odd by adapting it to another context. I wasn't necessarily accusing supporters of being explicitly confrontational, although, for whatever reason, you have gotten very defensive about matters right now. You're usually a very rational and unemotional poster in debate, but you're clearly very touchy about what you see as your orthodoxy being challenged in this instance.

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Danny, who are you to lecture us on what you see as our condescension and our unhelpful attitudes, or instruct us as to what we should be doing? Why should I not simply assume that you are just another poster who doesn't know much about LOI, but has the arrogance to think they know how to diagnose the problems and to fix them?

Certainly, your argument that all the league needs is a bit of imagination in its promotion is a ridiculous oversimplification of the problems it faces, and very insulting to people, people I know personally, who have spent years, if not decades, working their arses off to develop their club in the face of a generally apathetic public.

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You seem to like simplifying my arguments into single sentences, but I'm not of the opinion that all the league needs is a little bit of imagination. I'm well aware there are other major problems it has to overcome in order to just about survive; problems that make things very difficult for the league, no matter what it and its patrons do. I'm sorry if I sounded like I was trying to lecture anyone; I wasn't. I'm trying to offer constructive debate. If you don't think a change in attitudes would be at all helpful, just say so; don't try to question my character and "qualifications". There's no need to try and frame me as some sort of "outsider" who first needs to validate himself before having a right to express an opinion on the LOI. I've attended league games for years at various periods of my life (as if I have to justify my opinion...). I won't try to claim I've ever been as dedicated as some of those on here and others - for whom I have great respect (I hope you don't see that as condescending!) - but I'm not coming at this as someone who wishes to disparage the league or cause it harm. So, you can get off your high-horse too. ;)

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

When terms like "excuse" are used, it indicates what I perceive to be a mindset that does nobody any favours. It sounds like a supporter is looking for justification for non-attendance when they speak of someone requiring an "excuse". I was just trying to demonstrate why that mindset might seem odd by adapting it to another context. I wasn't necessarily accusing supporters of being explicitly confrontational, although, for whatever reason, you have gotten very defensive about matters right now. You're usually a very rational and unemotional poster in debate, but you're clearly very touchy about what you see as your orthodoxy being challenged in this instance.

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I'm not defensive (what have I go to be defensive about?), I'm pi**ed off, because I think you've horribly represented the 'mindset' of LOI fans.

Firstly, you've appropriated Sullivinho's post from the eligibility rules thread and adapted it for this debate, so it reads like this: What is absolutely beyond doubt is no one should ever, ever have an issue supporting the League of Ireland. That is the axiom from which all further reasoning must proceed. I don't see anything on this thread or on this website to suggest that this is in any way the majority view of LOI fans, but you have no problem ascribing this mindset to us. And what kind of words did you associate with this mindset? Delusion. Repressed anger. Condescension. We have unhelpful attitudes. We apparently, generally speaking, view anybody who doesn't have the same mindset as imbecilic ignoramuses. We badger them to have them justify their non-attendance at LOI games.

All of the above is so far removed what I am completely confident the vast vast majority of LOI fans are like. And as I said, I don't think there is anything on this website to explain the general image you portray of LOI fans. So yeah, I'm pi**ed off about it.

So, how to go about solving the problems? I don't think it misrepresents your argument to paraphrase it using Sullivinho's post again: What is absolutely beyond doubt is that everybody will be interested in LOI if it's advertised to them properly. That is the axiom from which all further reasoning must proceed.

Now, I don't think this is any more true about LOI football than it is abour archaeology or Irish stew or anything else. But you do: There's a way to win people over. It just hasn't been successfully tried yet, evidently. In fact, you wonder if we've been trying hard enough: Has it really been tried en masse at all? No doubt, advertising is the way forward: There is a way to crack it. It'll just require a bit of imagination.

Think about that last line Danny. Think about how glibly you dismiss the hard work done by LOI clubs over the years. You think they haven't spent hours racking their brains, thinking about the best ways to get people in the gates? That they haven't tried everything they can think of? Trying their own ideas, or mimicked stuff that worked elsewhere? But all these years, none of them ever realised that it'll just require a bit of imagination.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I'm trying to offer constructive debate. If you don't think a change in attitudes would be at all helpful, just say so; don't try to question my character and "qualifications". There's no need to try and frame me as some sort of "outsider" who first needs to validate himself before having a right to express an opinion on the LOI. I've attended league games for years at various periods of my life (as if I have to justify my opinion...). I won't try to claim I've ever been as dedicated as some of those on here and others - for whom I have great respect (I hope you don't see that as condescending!) - but I'm not coming at this as someone who wishes to disparage the league or cause it harm.

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Certainly you're entitled to your opinion, and I would never suggest otherwise. I am also sure that you're not someone who wishes to disparage the league or cause it harm, of course not.

I'm not trying to frame you as an outsider. I don't see it like that. I look at it in terms of who has a good enough understanding of LOI to be familiar with the problems it faces, and knowledge of the past attempts to remedy these problems. And when you portray LOI fans as you have above, dismiss their hard work as you have above, and offer up the analogy you offered earlier about archaeology, I'm not convinced at all by these arguments.

This article probably deserves a spot in another thread - I can see its relevance to several! - but one thing that stands out is the sheer reach of the brand of English football. Make no mistake, it is a brand, the clubs are brands and they are extremely complex and effective brands.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...ccer-crazy-mls

It's basically an article on how San Diego is soccer mad, would love a MLS team, is a hotbed of talent but is also a tug of war ground for Mexico and USA for this talent, also loves the EPL but, it speculates, the locals would happily support their own team while following English football from afar.

As someone who's been supporting the LOI for over 40 years, BY FAR the main difference I've noticed is how little press coverage the league gets now since I first started going to games. The English game used to get coverage of course, but I'd say the ratio was about 50/50. Now it's about 95/5 in favour of the EPL. (I don't think I'm exaggerating about this). Also, 'star' columnists like Con Houlihan would write regularly about the League. It's unthinkable now that someone like Keith Duggan in The Irish Times (which, somewhat curiously, has become a rabidly GAA newspaper) would do this now.

Also: I would guess he crowds are probably slightly less. (Does anyone have any hard info on this??)

The facilities are slightly better. (Only because they were unspeakably bleak in the 1970s)

The main problem is people's lack of imagination. They can't make the connection between supporting local clubs and these clubs becoming successful as a result of more people going through the turnstiles and creating revenue. (By 'successful' I mean being able to reach the Europa or Champions' League Group stages in Europe - the 'people' don't care about the domestic league).

Have to say - I'm impressed by the intelligent, thoughtful and articulate arguments being made on this thread. At the risk of sounding condescending to our EPL and Celtic obsessed friends, one gets a better brand of poster on the foot.ie League of Ireland message board.

Except some of us were 'Celtic-obsessed', because there was no LOI club for miles and my folks wouldn't have been seen dead in there even if there had of been, partly for 'cultural/social' reasons, but mainly because they weren't remotely soccer 'fans' until many years later.

Respect the vast majority of LOI fans have met at Ireland games over the years, even if some are a tad precious about 'their product'.
Especially respect those ones who are local to their clubs and see it as a focal point in their community.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I also resent the idea that LOI fans are required to be ambassadors for the league and constantly have to justify it and convert people. If I want to be dismissive of other people who don't give it a chance, or sneer at them, it's my choice.

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Sorry if I came across that way. I have an issue with "whining", that's all.

If people want to have a pop at arseholes who dismiss the league, that's fine but I wouldn't waste my time with them.

Anyway osarusan spells out most of my feelings on the subject far better than I can.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

What do you say to those who offer you that "excuse"?

I don't want to make a massive deal out of it in confrontational fashion as you may have used it fairly neutrally (or perhaps unwittingly) and this probably comes across as a bit pedantic on my part, but even the word "excuse" used in this context has loaded connotations and would sound daft - possibly even insulting - to someone with no present active interest in the league. An excuse is "a plea offered in extenuation of a fault or for release from an obligation or a promise". These inactive or latent supporters may have their reasons, but why would or should they ever feel like they have to excuse themselves, as if they're in the wrong and owe you an explanation?

The language proponents use in promotion of the league is very important; it needs to be positive and encouraging. The most effective way to win people over is by making them feel good about getting into something; not by making them feel guilty for being interested in something else. No-one likes to feel like their being coerced, goaded or emotionally blackmailed into or out of something. Do you feel a need to excuse yourself from other local events in Dundalk besides football that you don't bother attending because you have absolutely no interest in them at present? What would you make of people mocking your "excuses" for not partaking in the local church choir or joining the weekly cookery club? Asking someone with no interest in the League of Ireland what their "excuse" is for not attending games would sound as senseless and unreasonable to them as what asking you what your "excuse" was for not going on an archaeology dig in Monaghan next Sunday or for not eating Irish stew right now would sound like to you. You might have unconscious reasons - a simple lack of present interest, most likely, as is your right - but if someone started badgering you to explain yourself or expected you to excuse yourself, you'd rightly think they were on a wind-up, no?

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Whoah! That is a major over analysis of the point I was trying to make. I have never and will never be openly dismissive to people who either dismiss LoI outright or those who excuse their absence. There is no interrogation as to why they would not consider their return to Oriel Park on an occasion. This information is volunteered more often than not. The see a scarf, jersey, matchday programme and come over to find out about the game. My honest opinion of the match is given and practically without fail a series of reasons (or in my opinion excuses) get rolled out as to why they were not at the game themselves. The most frustrating one for me is the i quit during the bad times and i dont want to be a glory hunter type of stuff. My own reply is generally along the lines of who would notice, who would care, give it a chance again and if there is no longer any appeal for the local live game so be it - but dont rule it out because a different era caused disillusionment.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Except some of us were 'Celtic-obsessed', because there was no LOI club for miles and my folks wouldn't have been seen dead in there even if there had of been, partly for 'cultural/social' reasons, but mainly because they weren't remotely soccer 'fans' until many years later.

Respect the vast majority of LOI fans have met at Ireland games over the years, even if some are a tad precious about 'their product'.
Especially respect those ones who are local to their clubs and see it as a focal point in their community.

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Ardee? No club for miles? You've got 2 within about 15 miles!!

Glasgow is a lot closer than Dundalk, Monaghan or Drogheda to him of course.

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Originally Posted by Duffman

Ardee? No club for miles? You've got 2 within about 15 miles!!

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Except wasn't living in Ardee then...but the North.

At least check yer facts.

He means Finsbury Park :)

The North Pole!

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Originally Posted by Straightstory

As someone who's been supporting the LOI for over 40 years, BY FAR the main difference I've noticed is how little press coverage the league gets now since I first started going to games. The English game used to get coverage of course, but I'd say the ratio was about 50/50. Now it's about 95/5 in favour of the EPL. (I don't think I'm exaggerating about this). Also, 'star' columnists like Con Houlihan would write regularly about the League. It's unthinkable now that someone like Keith Duggan in The Irish Times (which, somewhat curiously, has become a rabidly GAA newspaper) would do this now.

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Strange but spot on re the Sports section of the Times under Malachy Logan. There is very much a GAA slant on their Sport coverage with domestic football restricted. Shame as Emmett Malone is one of the best football writers. Even their World Cup preview had to be described in GAA terms. It used to be a rugby paper but the likes of Derek Jones and Peter Byrne had plenty of space for football.

My uncle was ran out of a shop in Kerry one summer circa 1970. He could only find the Irish Press and asked the woman behind the counter if she had the Times. "Gerra out of here with your protestant paper. I don't even stock the Independent."

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

He means Finsbury Park :)

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

The North Pole!

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Er, Wrong on both counts.

The North of Ireland. You may just have heard of it?


Not known for burgeoning LOI clubs support back then. Or even now.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Except wasn't living in Ardee then...but the North.

At least check yer facts.

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How could he check his facts? It's not like all the places you've resided in, are stored somewhere for all of us to access before we post something in reply to one of your posts.

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Originally Posted by gspain01

Strange but spot on re the Sports section of the Times under Malachy Logan. There is very much a GAA slant on their Sport coverage with domestic football restricted. Shame as Emmett Malone is one of the best football writers. Even their World Cup preview had to be described in GAA terms. It used to be a rugby paper but the likes of Derek Jones and Peter Byrne had plenty of space for football.

My uncle was ran out of a shop in Kerry one summer circa 1970. He could only find the Irish Press and asked the woman behind the counter if she had the Times. "Gerra out of here with your protestant paper. I don't even stock the Independent."

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Thanks for that. I have felt the Times to be very patronising when it can even be bothered with Irish football.

It's not just the GAA heads. The racing correspondent/lead sports writer Brian O'Connor takes every opportunity he can to knock the LOI while talking about something completely different. They're just a reflection of the middle-upper class that makes up the vast majority of their readership.

It always annoys me how the Times calls it the National League. I know it was something to do with not wanting to use a previous sponsor's name but ffs, they could just call it the League of Ireland like everyone else does.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Except wasn't living in Ardee then...but the North.

At least check yer facts.

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Forgot there were no clubs in Northern Ireland.

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Originally Posted by MeathDrog

Forgot there were no clubs in Northern Ireland.

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Wait for the Derry lads to sort that one out!

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Originally Posted by ger121

How could he check his facts? It's not like all the places you've resided in, are stored somewhere for all of us to access before we post something in reply to one of your posts.

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Ok, well best to not make daft assumptions either...

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Originally Posted by MeathDrog

Forgot there were no clubs in Northern Ireland.

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Hmm, like most of them weren't remotely welcoming to anyone of a non-unionist persuasion back then...

Like I said in an earlier post, my folks wouldn't have gone anywhere near them, more into rugby & the horses, so had to make my own selective choices...
;)

Rory McIlroy at Old Trafford today. Speaking to BT Sports he told of his father being a big Man City fan, but he started supporting Man United when he was younger because they were really successful at the time. It was pretty awful.

I've no interest in Rory McIlroy. I only follow my local golf team :)

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Originally Posted by osarusan

I'm not defensive (what have I go to be defensive about?), I'm pi**ed off, because I think you've horribly represented the 'mindset' of LOI fans.

Firstly, you've appropriated Sullivinho's post from the eligibility rules thread and adapted it for this debate, so it reads like this: What is absolutely beyond doubt is no one should ever, ever have an issue supporting the League of Ireland. That is the axiom from which all further reasoning must proceed. I don't see anything on this thread or on this website to suggest that this is in any way the majority view of LOI fans, but you have no problem ascribing this mindset to us. And what kind of words did you associate with this mindset? Delusion. Repressed anger. Condescension. We have unhelpful attitudes. We apparently, generally speaking, view anybody who doesn't have the same mindset as imbecilic ignoramuses. We badger them to have them justify their non-attendance at LOI games.

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Just getting a chance to respond properly now, but that's just a bizarre postful of angry, misdirected and over-protective nonsense. I'm surprised you seem to be letting what I can really only assume to be some inexplicable sense of enmity get the better of your usually cold and rational self. Have you got a chip on your shoulder over something? Not only are you being overly defensive (of "your" league and orthodoxy) and displaying a very delicate persecution complex (by blowing what I've said way out of proportion), you also seem to be imagining things by, in fact, completely misrepresenting me. I've not been attacking you at all. Why exactly are you polarising the discussion by erecting this false division between "we/us" (you and whoever else you believe thinks like you) and others (myself, apparently, and perhaps people you assume think differently from you because they "misunderstand")? I'm contributing to a discussion and offering my thoughts; in doing so, I have no intention of belittling anyone or suggesting I know it all. If my thoughts can add something positive; great. If not, I'll try have a re-think. I mean, many of the examples depicted in contributions to this thread have both amused me and filled me with despair too; I'm just saying that responding to them vindictively is of little benefit. I think it's a great shame that the broad football-following Irish public ignore the League of Ireland and I'd love if there was a widespread national pride in it, but they have to be convinced; not expected.

Living in Manchester for the past four years of my life has meant I'm somewhat out-of-the-loop with regard to goings-on back home, but I do consider myself a supporter of the league too. It's not a case of me versus League of Ireland supporters, from wherever you got that crazy impression, nor do you have dominion over who gets to consider themself an interested party and who doesn't. I feel daft having to say this (and I don't wish to overstate my commitment, because there are people who dedicate their lives to the league - and bloody good for them - whilst my ability to support in recent years has been limited and more latent due to my present circumstances), but I've invested plenty of my time and money in the league over the years and have been to over a dozen different grounds around the country following live games, so don't try cast me as "just another poster who doesn't know much about LOI, but has the arrogance to think [he knows] how to diagnose the problems and to fix them" and attempt to disqualify me from having a valid say here. At what point, in your opinion, might my "arrogance" constitute a legitimate point? I don't require a rubber stamp from you to validate my opinion, thank you very much.

I've not ascribed any mindset to League of Ireland fans generally, nor have I attempted to quantify how prevalent I think the discussed damaging mindset happens to be. I saw a very negative and spiteful antipathy exhibited in the thread by marinobohs and thought it worth challenging. Don't you think opinions like that are counter-productive? When I was being critical of that mindset, it should have been fairly obvious to anyone thinking clearly, and unburdened by a seeming petty grudge, that I was being critical of those who harbour such feelings rather than being critical of supporters of the league generally. Nowhere did I suggest it was a majority attitude. In fact, I even suggested that supporters of the league who catch other supporters of the league engaging in such negativity should pull the latter up on it. You're playing naive, however, if you're suggesting marinobohs is the only supporter of the League of Ireland who harbours such resentment as was displayed. Sure even Bonnie acknowledged that the existence of angry superiority complexes might be a bit more widespread; he implicitly (albeit vaguely) quantified it. That's it's tolerated can only be damaging, don't you think? Dodge has also stated his revulsion for the "whiny" attitude, so he too acknowledges its detrimental existence. Why single out my acknowledgment of it as somehow problematic and worthy of rebuke?

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All of the above is so far removed what I am completely confident the vast vast majority of LOI fans are like. And as I said, I don't think there is anything on this website to explain the general image you portray of LOI fans. So yeah, I'm pi**ed off about it.

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Well, direct your anger elsewhere. I wasn't painting everyone with the same brush. For some reason, you're the only one who's gotten touchy about what I've posted. If everyone else here thought I was having a go at League of Ireland supporters generally, might they not have been provoked into taking pot-shots at me too? You're out-of-order if you're ****ed off with me. Have I rubbed you up the wrong way or something? I don't think I'm being paranoid in saying I (and a few others) have noticed a familiar trend with you of late...

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So, how to go about solving the problems? I don't think it misrepresents your argument to paraphrase it using Sullivinho's post again: What is absolutely beyond doubt is that everybody will be interested in LOI if it's advertised to them properly. That is the axiom from which all further reasoning must proceed.

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Don't be silly. Of course that completely misrepresents my argument. I'm not that naive.

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Now, I don't think this is any more true about LOI football than it is abour archaeology or Irish stew or anything else. But you do: There's a way to win people over. It just hasn't been successfully tried yet, evidently. In fact, you wonder if we've been trying hard enough: Has it really been tried en masse at all? No doubt, advertising is the way forward: There is a way to crack it. It'll just require a bit of imagination.

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Your compact annotations are way off. Nevertheless, I do think people can be won over. Live football has serious mass appeal for humans all around the globe, so why not believe it can be the same in Ireland? I have faith in people and their ability to change. Evidently, you don't. And whether you like it or not, whatever methods have been tried to date to win people over haven't been broadly or nationally successful. Pointing that out isn't to denigrate the hard graft interested parties have put into promoting the league in their chosen way down through the years either. All I'm saying really is that there must be something to be done that hasn't been thought of yet to enhance wider appeal. That's kind of self-evident. I'm not arrogantly suggesting I have the answers, nor am I suggesting that advertising is the answer, but it's surely a surrender to resign oneself to a continuation of the present stagnancy. You'd give the false impression that all has been exhausted with there being little else to be tried. Are you really saying that? That there's nothing can be done? It's a very pessimistic outlook.

An open discussion - all perspectives considered - can be had on what's helpful and what's not in the long-term, surely? If certain things have been tried in the past and not worked, what's your issue with acknowledging the obvious reality that maybe a different tack be required? Why do you see it as a bad thing that someone with an interest like myself might try and contribute to such a discussion in complete good faith? Why even might it be a bad thing for an "outsider" to offer an opinion from outside the box? Insider efforts are evidently struggling, so what harm might an unorthodox view pose? Once again, that's not to say that imaginative and inventive strategies haven't been employed by some who've gone to great lengths trying to think up novel ways of bringing more people through the turnstiles, but there's evidently something missing. I wouldn't for a minute want to trivialise or suggest it'll be easy, and if you think I phrased an earlier comment about imagination rather casually, there was no dismissive or arrogant intent involved whatsoever. For a start, the FAI could draw up a solid promotion and development plan with a set time-frame in mind. I know GAA is an institutional favourite amongst Ireland's political class, but what about governmental lobbying for greater support and building more influential political connections? Social media campaigns, exploiting celebrity links... I dunno; I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't be doing, nor am I necessarily saying things haven't been tried and shunned, but just throwing out a few ideas. If you'd rather not hear them, ignore me. The popularity of football exploded in the US over the past few months, for example. The World Cup played a big role in that, sure, but something had to first render it relevant to huge swathes of Americans who previously mightn't even have known there was another version of football played with a round ball.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Think about that last line Danny. Think about how glibly you dismiss the hard work done by LOI clubs over the years. You think they haven't spent hours racking their brains, thinking about the best ways to get people in the gates? That they haven't tried everything they can think of? Trying their own ideas, or mimicked stuff that worked elsewhere? But all these years, none of them ever realised that it'll just require a bit of imagination.

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Give over. All I've done is acknowledge the reality that whatever methods have already been tried haven't really succeeded in achieving their stated aims. Even those dedicating their hard graft would admit that. It's the unfortunate truth. I'm not pointing it out in order to mock. I would never "glibly dismiss" the hard work done by clubs and other supporters over the years, so please don't accuse me of that. The FAI were at the forefront of my mind when I wrote about imagination. Having English Premier League supporters running the FAI can't be of much help either, of course. Anyhow, just because someone thinks they're doing right for something, it doesn't render them infallible or beyond criticism either, nor does it necessarily mean that what they're doing is actually proving beneficial. It's healthy to challenge orthodox opinions and received wisdom in a constructive way. Ultimately, we all want a thriving league and want to find the best way of achieving that. For some unknown reason, however, it appears you just want to shut up shop and limit the discussion to only those you assume to be interested and in the know.

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I look at it in terms of who has a good enough understanding of LOI to be familiar with the problems it faces, and knowledge of the past attempts to remedy these problems. And when you portray LOI fans as you have above, dismiss their hard work as you have above, and offer up the analogy you offered earlier about archaeology, I'm not convinced at all by these arguments.

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I wasn't comparing League of Ireland football to an archaeology dig in Monaghan, just in case that's what you're thinking. I simply plucked an obscure and irrelevant pastime out of my head to demonstrate how senseless and inappropriate it is to assume that a non-supporter of the League of Ireland would require an "excuse" to explain his or her non-attendance at a League of Ireland game. No archaeology digger would ever assume that somebody with no interest in archaeology digging would require an "excuse" in order to explain his or her non-participation in a voluntary archaeology dig.

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

Whoah! That is a major over analysis of the point I was trying to make. I have never and will never be openly dismissive to people who either dismiss LoI outright or those who excuse their absence. There is no interrogation as to why they would not consider their return to Oriel Park on an occasion. This information is volunteered more often than not. The see a scarf, jersey, matchday programme and come over to find out about the game. My honest opinion of the match is given and practically without fail a series of reasons (or in my opinion excuses) get rolled out as to why they were not at the game themselves. The most frustrating one for me is the i quit during the bad times and i dont want to be a glory hunter type of stuff. My own reply is generally along the lines of who would notice, who would care, give it a chance again and if there is no longer any appeal for the local live game so be it - but dont rule it out because a different era caused disillusionment.

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I did qualify my analysis as possible nit-picking and I hate to harp on about it, but I fear you've missed my point, unless you're just being stubborn. :p It was the usage of the word "excuse" (which you've continued to use) that I thought betrayed an imposed expectation upon these others you mentioned; as if the natural order of things required that they be attending games and, if not, then they must be excusing their absence. If you perceive them to be coming up with excuses, then there must, in your mind, be some obligation for them from which you think they're unduly excusing themselves. Don't you acknowledge how inappropriate using such a term is in the context of someone who has no obligation to be participating in what it is you think they're excusing themselves from? Their reason, if a conscious or non-passive one at all, would only be an excuse if they had a prior duty to attend. To be fair, I don't sense you're actively or intentionally going out of your way to criticise non-supporters, nor am I remotely questioning your evident good will, but I think it's important to acknowledge the connotations of the language we use in relation to non-supporters if trying or hoping to win them over.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I did qualify my analysis as possible nit-picking and I hate to harp on about it, but I fear you've missed my point, unless you're just being stubborn. :p It was the usage of the word "excuse" (which you've continued to use) that I thought betrayed an imposed expectation upon these others you mentioned; as if the natural order of things required that they be attending games and, if not, then they must be excusing their absence. If you perceive them to be coming up with excuses, then there must, in your mind, be some obligation for them from which you think they're unduly excusing themselves. Don't you acknowledge how inappropriate using such a term is in the context of someone who has no obligation to be participating in what it is you think they're excusing themselves from? Their reason, if a conscious or non-passive one at all, would only be an excuse if they had a prior duty to attend. To be fair, I don't sense you're actively or intentionally going out of your way to criticise non-supporters, nor am I remotely questioning your evident good will, but I think it's important to acknowledge the connotations of the language we use in relation to non-supporters if trying or hoping to win them over.

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I didnt miss the point and I can be fussy enough in relation to semantics myself...good job I cant spell! Yes using the term 'excuse' implies some sort of obligation, but i am not the one that would provide multiple 'reasons' for why I was not at the match. Therefore the person who is rolling out the 'reasons' themselves must feel some sort of obligation, duty or even guilt for why they chose not to go to games anymore. Otherwise they would simply offer thanks for the run down of the match and off back to their pint. In my opinion former active supporters of a club who share a passion for the club albeit during a different era probably do feel some sort of obligation to support the club by some means. I know I would! If i wasnt in Oriel for 30 years either by choice or by circumstances I am still likely to support and love the club and a part of me would probably still feel that I should offer more effort to support Dundalk by whatever means, financial or brainwashing the kids or something. It is not what is in my mind that causes intended or otherwise the use of terminoligy that is judgemental, it is my observation that many are making excuses to themsleves and try to justify their absence. The reality is that I care about attendences so I cant say that I dont wish these former fans would return and experience the enjoyment so many of us are getting with the current team. I do recognise though that it would be counter productive to patronise these people, be dismissive, insulting or even to plead desperately for their return. They will do want they want and indeed there are some old faces starting to make a reappearance in their own time. I dont like the elite fan attitude of some LoI fans. But as somone who attends LoI I do feel in a better position to comment and criticise LoI and will do so rather than the never been naysayers. It is this type of naysayer that ive seen most often convert to Loi fanatic - as they take the **** out of LoI I say sure you shall have a good old chuckle if ye come to the game, nothing to lose and get a few beers in next thing they're showing of a season ticket.

I dont even know if i understand this post myself lol

Ah, no, I understand. You've explained perfectly well that the obligation or expectation isn't something that emanates from you. Rather, the people you mention rhyming off their reasons, entirely voluntarily and unprompted by yourself, give the impression that they're explaining away some personal sense of guilt. That's fair enough; nobody else is to blame for that really. It's when "excuse" is used to imply the imposition of some obligation upon the non-supporter from the supporter, I take issue because it can only breed disdain, but that's a different scenario from the one you've explained.

and yes I was being stubborn!

'After being starved of football all summer.... the English Premier League starts tomorrow...'

http://www.hotpress.com/Sinead-OConn.../11998584.html

You'd think Hot Press, being an Irish magazine, might have noticed that there's a football league in Ireland, but apparently not.

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Originally Posted by Straightstory

'After being starved of football all summer.... the English Premier League starts tomorrow...'

http://www.hotpress.com/Sinead-OConn.../11998584.html

You'd think Hot Press, being an Irish magazine, might have noticed that there's a football league in Ireland, but apparently not.

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Isn't Stuart Clarke a big LOI (Pat's?) fan? Is he still editor of HP?

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Originally Posted by poster

Isn't Stuart Clarke a big LOI (Pat's?) fan? Is he still editor of HP?

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Bohs, and he's still deputy editor, yeah, but those kind of fluff pieces are written by unpaid interns. You know the type, wealthy parents, etc. They tend not to be LOI fans.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Bohs, and he's still deputy editor, yeah, but those kind of fluff pieces are written by unpaid interns. You know the type, wealthy parents, etc. They tend not to be LOI fans.

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Stereotyping?

You do not have to have wealthy parents to be an unpaid intern.

The country is awash with unpaid and low paid (social welfare + €50) interns - your blithe comment does them a disservice

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

Stereotyping?

You do not have to have wealthy parents to be an unpaid intern.

The country is awash with unpaid and low paid (social welfare + €50) interns - your blithe comment does them a disservice

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OK, I'll change it somewhat. I know enough of them to know background they tend to be from.

Danny, you've speculated that I have some personal grudge or enmity against you, that you've rubbed me up the wrong way somehow. It's not the case at all. I don't know you from Adam, I'm just commenting on what I see in your posts.

This is important, because you've also made efforts to portray me as a person that sees things as 'us' (LOI fans) and 'them' (non-LOI fans). You are trying to paint an image of me as somebody who is not only happy to summarily dismiss the opinions of 'outsiders' and suggest their opinions are invalid, but seeks to silence them somehow, to prevent non-LOI fans from getting involved in LOI-related discussion. This simply isn't true. I explained this already:

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Certainly you're entitled to your opinion, and I would never suggest otherwise. I am also sure that you're not someone who wishes to disparage the league or cause it harm, of course not.

I'm not trying to frame you as an outsider. I don't see it like that. I look at it in terms of who has a good enough understanding of LOI to be familiar with the problems it faces, and knowledge of the past attempts to remedy these problems. And when you portray LOI fans as you have above, dismiss their hard work as you have above, and offer up the analogy you offered earlier about archaeology, I'm not convinced at all by these arguments.

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The simple fact is that lots of people talk about the LOI and what is wrong with it, and why, and how to 'fix' it (not that you have done all these things), and when I read or listen to their comments, I'll either come to the conclusion that they know what they're talking about, or the conclusion that they don't really know what they're talking about.

When I read your comments about some LOI fans being delusional, full of repressed anger and hatred, etc, and your comments about a bit of imagination being the missing link so far (worded 'slightly carelessly'? Damn right it was), and you offer an unfair analogy about a similar lack of interest in archaeology, and your notion that people are 'badgered' over their non-attendance, I think to myself, this guy isn't really all that familiar with the LOI.

It's not about anything other than the some of the content of your posts.

I'm a bit confused about the concern with the "how to fix it" disdain. Is it the wording or the principle of outsiders (my word here, probably not the best but you know what I mean) offering advice or opinions?

If the phrase "fix it" was replaced by "how to attract larger crowds / new customers / more financial investment / players who'd otherwise go to English lower leagues" would that be met with more enthusiasm?

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'm a bit confused about the concern with the "how to fix it" disdain. Is it the wording or the principle of outsiders (my word here, probably not the best but you know what I mean) offering advice or opinions?

If the phrase "fix it" was replaced by "how to attract larger crowds / new customers / more financial investment / players who'd otherwise go to English lower leagues" would that be met with more enthusiasm?

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It's the fact the people proposing the fixes rarely have any real interest in the outcome. It's the equivalent of some yank walking up to you in the pub in London and telling you all about what the Irish people should do to fix the political and economic mess we're in before walking away smugly satisfied that his plan to "vote for somebody else" and renege on the bank debt is the kind of insightful analysis that you weren't capable of coming up with yourself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Danny, you've speculated that I have some personal grudge or enmity against you, that you've rubbed me up the wrong way somehow. It's not the case at all. I don't know you from Adam, I'm just commenting on what I see in your posts.

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Fair enough. Although, dealing with the actual content of my posts rather than with what you angrily assume to be the meaning behind them is the best way of demonstrating that. I still feel you're misrepresenting me, so I'll try re-clarify.

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When I read your comments about some LOI fans being delusional, full of repressed anger and hatred, etc, and your comments about a bit of imagination being the missing link so far (worded 'slightly carelessly'? Damn right it was), and you offer an unfair analogy about a similar lack of interest in archaeology, and your notion that people are 'badgered' over their non-attendance, I think to myself, this guy isn't really all that familiar with the LOI.

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But some (and I never said all were, nor did I even suggest it was a majority) are delusional and full of repressed anger and hatred. How can you deny that? marinobohs' post was a perfect example of it. I didn't even indicate what I perceived its prevalence to be. A LOI supporter admitting that there are unhelpful attitudes amongst certain LOI supporters doesn't have to be a contradiction, nor does such an admission or acknowledgment amount to an attack on the LOI and LOI supporters generally. Are you afraid to acknowledge that or something?

I had said "rather casually" and I don't think I suggested it was the missing link. If that's how you interpreted it, well, I certainly didn't mean it to come across like that. I'm well aware that there are plenty of obstacles - things over which interested parties have much less control than their own imaginations - facing those who are already putting their heads into overdrive to try and attract greater interest.

What's unfair about the archaeology digging analogy exactly? If the LOI is as irrelvant to someone as archaeology digging, why would it be in any way appropriate to expect their interest or to expect an excuse if interest was lacking? It was within that context that I raised the analogy; one under which I thought an expectation upon non-supporters was being expressed.

When I used the word "badgered", it was as part of my analogy to try and explain how such a mindset of expectation or assumed obligation might seem inappropriate and unusual from another perspective. I wasn't explicitly accusing nesta99 of going round badgering people down the pub in Dundalk.

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Originally Posted by poster

Isn't Stuart Clarke a big LOI (Pat's?) fan? Is he still editor of HP?

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Liam Mackey used to edit HP. Liam and HP were very supportive of the KRAM campaign in 1987. Liam was MC at a public debate on the issue at Libery Hall (I think) which I attended. Liam would be outraged by that remark!

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

It's the fact the people proposing the fixes rarely have any real interest in the outcome. It's the equivalent of some yank walking up to you in the pub in London and telling you all about what the Irish people should do to fix the political and economic mess we're in before walking away smugly satisfied that his plan to "vote for somebody else" and renege on the bank debt is the kind of insightful analysis that you weren't capable of coming up with yourself.

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I'd say Danny has an interest in the outcome though.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'd say Danny has an interest in the outcome though.

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He's not an outsider either, though. The disdain is towards people who don't take any active interest in the league or make an effort to attend games yet make it their duty to offer solutions, which any LOI supporter could tell you tend to be far more opinionated than active fans.