Where might new clubs come from?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

That doesn't change the fact that it's the right way to progress, that the current setup is a mess, that an intermediary league isn't a solution to anything, and that you haven't actually got any points to back up your argument other than "It's not going to happen"

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I agreed with the idea of a pyramid years back. I just moved on to accept the reality that it's a non-runner.
The league lacks a national vibrancy in my own humble opinion. The Youth Leagues have learned from the A Championship and have taken the common sense approach of only allowing non-LoI representation from areas without LoI clubs, bar one exception.
I merely suggest to extend that common sense approach to an intermediary league, accepting the reality that even it is a few years away from being a reasonable possibility.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

You didn't read what I wrote. Offering completely new, additional money with strings attached is not withholding money.

For me, the bottom line is that Irish football needs to change. And it looks unlikely that it will be able to change itself. Gurning on the internet about it is all very well, but solutions need to be identified. I've identified one possible route for this. What are your proposed solutions to deliver the change you want to see ?

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It is interfering in the independence of members and decision-making though. And it's also simply not something the Government should be interfering in. The Sports Minister typically barely knows a thing about sport (not necessarily a bad thing), so for the Government to be imposing strategic decisions on sporting organisations should be an obvious no-no. Not to mention that you haven't addressed why you think the problem with the FAI making the decision (it's "a representative body, with the people affected by this having votes") doesn't apply to the Government (which is also a representative body, with the people affected by this having votes)

What's my solution? Change has to come from inside. What's going to drive that change? I don't know. I don't see any reason we won't be discussing this matter in 10-15 years' time to be quite honest. I do think that a decline in people playing 11-a-side is going to force some leagues into crisis talks as numbers shrink, and that may start something. But mergers of leagues is one thing; we still have to get over the most idiotically short-sighted decision the FAI has ever made, which is summer soccer. That's a big hurdle.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

If the Government dictates policy to the FAI, the FAI gets suspended from FIFA. Not an option.

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You can work around that, as follows:

Govt says to FAI "We'll give you money for XYZ - but you don't have to accept it"

FAI says: "Fine, thanks for that" and distributes money according to Govt's wishes.

Or, FAI says "No, we don't like that, so no thanks"

In which case Govt says: "Fine, we'll keep our money".

In other words, FIFA cannot dictate to Govts how and to whom they (Govts) may distribute their money.

Nor will they want to pressure their Associations in such a way as it will cost them (Assocs) funding for no good reason.

EDIT: Just seen EYG's post #438 (and agree with it)

What are you giving money for though? Changing league structure isn't something you can really cost - it's not the same as "we will give you some money for a new centre of excellence" or withholding stadium grants.

It makes it that bit harder to appear that you're not pressurising the FAI. You can be fairly sure too some local league bigwig will kick up a fuss about it.

And it still isn't the Government's place to dictate such strategic policy to any sporting organisation. And rightly so.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It's not the Government's job to decide what league structure is best for Irish football. That's way too detailed a level for it to be getting into, and the Government absolutely shouldn't be dictating such matters to the FAI.

FIFA statutes insist on "the independence of members and decision-making in each country" (BBC). It's hard to see how the Government telling the FAI to completely revamp its pyramid or else it would withhold funding wouldn't contravene that.

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But it's not "interfering" (i.e. dictating) if they (Govt) are "pushing on an open door".

That is, if the FAI Executive thinks eg a pyramid is good for football in ROI and can make a good case for it, then they discuss/agree it with the Govt before unveiling the plan publicly. Then if the Blazers and vested interests still oppose it, the Exec can inform them that if they don't agree, then there'll be no more money for them. Challenge them to cut off their nose to spite their face.

In other words, the only "politics" (small "p") needed is that within the FAI in sorting itself out.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

What are you giving money for though? Changing league structure isn't something you can really cost - it's not the same as "we will give you some money for a new centre of excellence" or withholding stadium grants.

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Sorry, but you're talking about the administration and management of a policy, pretty basic stuff, really.

I mean, if the IFA can do it... ;)
https://www.irishfa.com/irish-footba...ucture-project

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It makes it that bit harder to appear that you're not pressurising the FAI. You can be fairly sure too some local league bigwig will kick up a fuss about it.

And it still isn't the Government's place to dictate such strategic policy to any sporting organisation. And rightly so.

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But if it's presented as the FAI's plan, which it should be, then it's not "interference".

The role of Govt is to provide "muscle" (i.e.funding) for the FAI to get its plan through in the face of any internal opposition.

I agree it's pretty basic stuff. It's pathetic that we even have to discuss such a basic idea, tbh.

I don't see how you have it as the FAI's plan though. The FAI have never made the case for a pyramid; there's no open door here. Far too many people - with votes, unfortunately - are opposed to it. If they weren't, the FAI would just push it through themselves. But we have a position where FAI officials will only talk to a journalist on the topic off the record. That's how poisonous all this is.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I don't see how you have it as the FAI's plan though. The FAI have never made the case for a pyramid; there's no open door here. Far too many people - with votes, unfortunately - are opposed to it. If they weren't, the FAI would just push it through themselves. But we have a position where FAI officials will only talk to a journalist on the topic off the record. That's how poisonous all this is.

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When I term it as the "FAI's Plan", it has to come from the Executive. And their job is to get things through.

Don't believe that the IFA hasn't been hindered by small-time provincialism (literally!) just as much as the FAI. But they're managing to get round this, for instance Stormont/Sports Council telling them eg that the Board had to be reduced in numbers, with term limits, while non-Executive Director outsiders were to be appointed to reflect diversity and equality etc:
https://www.irishfa.com/news/2021/ma...ouncil-meeting
Otherwise the money would be cut off.

Of course it's by no means perfect (big understatement!), but they are managing to get things done improving/re-organising the pyramid, right down from Senior to Junior football, via Intermediate.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

When I term it as the "FAI's Plan", it has to come from the Executive. And their job is to get things through.

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I know that - but the Exec don't want it. Again, the article I linked showed that people can't even talk about it openly for fear of some sort of reprisal or political backstabbing. It's mad.

I completely agree with you that if the Exec had a plan and wanted to push it through, they could try talk to the Government and concoct an arrangement like you describe. (I'm not sure if the Government would be bothered getting on board, but that's a different matter)

But the situation EYG has described is where the Exec don't want this, the Government form the view that it's actually for in the FAI's best interests and try force their strategic view on the FAI. That's not going to happen, and shouldn't happen either. And I think it would fall foul of FIFA statutes.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Is UCD in the Premier that hard to imagine?


It certainly works better than the current setup. Regional sides with a bit of ambition or money know they can rise to the top. Rubbish sides get dumped down a level and stop wasting teams' time finishing bottom of the same division year-in-year-out. That's a benefit for those clubs too - how do you get local interest if you're getting beaten every weekend?

Why is teams with crowds of 300 in the top flight an issue? If they're better than the teams in the lower division, that's the important bit. If they're bad (or badly run), they'll get relegated. If they want to decline promotion, they can do so (often happens due to licensing reasons anyway)

Lots of other countries have major sports to compete against; we need to stop trotting that out as an excuse. And "we don't have a history of something" isn't a reason not to do it. If we implement it, then we will have a history of it.

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Not only do we not have a history of a pyramid, we have our own way of doing things entirely. Rugby and GAA clubs take pride in sending their young players to play for county/provincial sides. They're subservient to the local franchise, in America they'd be called farm teams. Ultimately if you want a pyramid you'll need teams willing and eager to move up, and we don't have a lot of those

UCD in the premier isn't hard to imagine, but it is embarrassing. A team of university students playing at the highest level isn't a good luck, and the fact they've developed no support after years in the league is shocking. Potential sponsors don't want to be associated with a league featuring a university vs a tiny suburb in a rugby ground with no proper spectator facilities

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Originally Posted by GUFCghost

Not only do we not have a history of a pyramid, we have our own way of doing things entirely.

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The AIL is a pyramid. The national hurling and football leagues are a pyramid. This idea of "We have our own way of doing things" doesn't stack up when our own way is so patently crap. Look at the messing with Treaty/Shamrock Rovers II for a recent example.

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Originally Posted by GUFCghost

UCD in the premier isn't hard to imagine, but it is embarrassing.

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Ah would you stop. The Premier is no more marketable since Shels were replaced us in 2020. Lots of countries have small clubs from the capital in their leagues - lots of players to go around. If you want to be embarrassed at a club, I'd point you a lot closer to home, and ask how a city like Galway can't sustain a Premier side, despite flashing the cash/DVDs/whatever else is in vogue.

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Originally Posted by GUFCghost

UCD in the premier isn't hard to imagine, but it is embarrassing. A team of university students playing at the highest level isn't a good luck, and the fact they've developed no support after years in the league is shocking. Potential sponsors don't want to be associated with a league featuring a university vs a tiny suburb in a rugby ground with no proper spectator facilities

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Ah would you stop. The Premier is no more marketable since Shels were replaced us in 2020. Lots of countries have small clubs from the capital in their leagues - lots of players to go around. If you want to be embarrassed at a club, I'd point you a lot closer to home, and ask how a city like Galway can't sustain a Premier side, despite flashing the cash/DVDs/whatever else is in vogue.

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UCD are well established as part of the League of Ireland.

Would it be viable to have a Third Level League of Ireland? It could be the level for U23 players at third level education not contracted to LoI clubs.

Strategic thinking wouldn't be your strong point, would it?

There already is a colleges league. What'd be the point in creating a new competition of pretty much exactly the same thing?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The AIL is a pyramid. The national hurling and football leagues are a pyramid. This idea of "We have our own way of doing things" doesn't stack up when our own way is so patently crap. Look at the messing with Treaty/Shamrock Rovers II for a recent example.

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The AIL?? LOL. Professional Rugby in this country is the provinces in the Pro 14. If it was a true pyramid system then Cork Con/Garryowen/Lansdowne could be promoted to the pro 14. They can't. Professional Rugby here is a Provincial Franchise model.

The national hurling and football leagues are not pyramids. Can Nemo Rangers or Na Fianna or Thomas Davis get promoted to the intercounty leagues No. The intercounty comps are franchises.

MLS and the A league are franchises. A lot of successful sports leagues including football leagues are franchise models.

In fact, English football has a unique culrure that is not replicated anywhere in the world. We cannot emulate their football culture as much as we would like to. Their lower league teams have very healthy attendances. Premier league teams wanted to enter B teams in the football league like they do in Spain and Germany and there was revolt from the fooball league clubs.

I wouldn't be in favour of a UK style pyramid structure as you would end up with the farce of Galway, Mervue and Salthill in the 1st division again. Certain areas can only support just one LOI club. Another Galway scenario would lead to fan bases and player pools getting diluted.

I'd be in favour of B teams and new teams (franchises from areas with no LOI representation) playing in a regionalised 3rd tier. I wouldn't even have a problem with them being in the second tier.

Now I know there isn't a queue of new clubs looking to join, but it needs to be made more attractive.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

When I term it as the "FAI's Plan", it has to come from the Executive. And their job is to get things through.

Don't believe that the IFA hasn't been hindered by small-time provincialism (literally!) just as much as the FAI. But they're managing to get round this, for instance Stormont/Sports Council telling them eg that the Board had to be reduced in numbers, with term limits, while non-Executive Director outsiders were to be appointed to reflect diversity and equality etc:
https://www.irishfa.com/news/2021/ma...ouncil-meeting
Otherwise the money would be cut off.

Of course it's by no means perfect (big understatement!), but they are managing to get things done improving/re-organising the pyramid, right down from Senior to Junior football, via Intermediate.

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Important to note that FIFA neither noticed nor cared when Stormont basically dictated what size and shape the IFA's top structures should take. So much for no political 'interference'.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

The AIL?? LOL. Professional Rugby in this country is the provinces in the Pro 14. If it was a true pyramid system then Cork Con/Garryowen/Lansdowne could be promoted to the pro 14. They can't. Professional Rugby here is a Provincial Franchise model.

The national hurling and football leagues are not pyramids. Can Nemo Rangers or Na Fianna or Thomas Davis get promoted to the intercounty leagues No. The intercounty comps are franchises.

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True, but the point remains that pyramids aren't unknown in either sport. Club/county aren't the same thing - you might as well argue that there's no pyramid in England because Liverpool can't be promoted to the World Cup - but within club/county, there are pyramids. The Pro 14 isn't an option for the LoI, so the real comparison is the AIL, which is a pyramid.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

MLS and the A league are franchises. A lot of successful sports leagues including football leagues are franchise models.

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And a lot of successful sports leagues including almost every football league in Europe operates a pyramid. The LoI is effectively a franchise model and it works terribly. Tralee and Cobh refused admittance for no reason? Limerick kicked out because John Delaney didn't like the owner? Cabinteely parachuted in six weeks before the new season with no history of a senior team and no ground? Shamrock Rovers II kicked out because sure it's Limerick's turn to have a team again now? Feck that.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

In fact, English football has a unique culrure that is not replicated anywhere in the world. We cannot emulate their football culture as much as we would like to. Their lower league teams have very healthy attendances. Premier league teams wanted to enter B teams in the football league like they do in Spain and Germany and there was revolt from the fooball league clubs.

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Not sure what the relevance of this is? No-one's expecting a third-tier LSL would draw 1,500 average crowds or something.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

I wouldn't be in favour of a UK style pyramid structure as you would end up with the farce of Galway, Mervue and Salthill in the 1st division again. Certain areas can only support just one LOI club.

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If Galway can only support one club, then a proper pyramid will reflect that. Mervue and Salthill spent most of their LoI existence fighting relegation that was barely an option for the most part. (In fact, effectively neither team won promotion - they just replaced Cobh and Kildare, who went bust - and then Salthill were bottom of the FD for each of their four years in it without ever being relegated, which is ridiculous)

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

True, but the point remains that pyramids aren't unknown in either sport. Club/county aren't the same thing, but within club/county, there are pyramids. The Pro 14 isn't an option for the LoI, so the real comparison is the AIL, which is a pyramid.

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If the LOI ends up like AIL rugby and if that is the height of our ambition then we are really goosed. Same with the GAA comparison. We should strive for intercounty levels of support, not local club levels.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

almost every football league in Europe operates a pyramid.

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"Almost". Some don't. It doesn't mean we should.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The LoI is effectively a franchise model and it works terribly. Tralee and Cobh refused admittance for no reason? Limerick kicked out because John Delaney didn't like the owner? Cabinteely parachuted in six weeks before the new season with no history of a senior team and no ground? Shamrock Rovers II kicked out because sure it's Limerick's turn to have a team again now? Feck that.

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All that says to me is that the FAI have made a complete balls of running the league here. The model can work IMO, if someone with a brain sat down and planned for growing the appeal for new clubs to join and helped and supported new clubs like Tralee etc. John Delaney is gone too, so the new guy might be better in this regard.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Not sure what the relevance of this is? No-one's expecting a third-tier LSL would draw 1,500 average crowds or something.

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Of course not. My point is that 1st division clubs were against having B teams in the division. Fellow Cork City fans were horrified of the prospect of having to play Shamrock II. I wouldn't have a problem with it. When Cork City were in the premier, I thought we should have had a B team/u23 team in the league. The MSL won't let us join their league. The only downside is the cost. Registration and travel. If the registration could be waived and the league made regional then it might be a runner.

But some people here think like we are England and are dead against B teams in the lower leagues. Newsflash, and I've said it already, we are not England and never will be like them in terms of football culture.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

If Galway can only support one club, then a proper pyramid will reflect that. Mervue and Salthill spent most of their LoI existence fighting relegation that was barely an option for the most part. (In fact, effectively neither team won promotion - they just replaced Cobh and Kildare, who went bust - and then Salthill were bottom of the FD for each of their four years in it without ever being relegated, which is ridiculous)

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All fair enough. But iirc, the presense of those two clubs weakened Galway in terms of fans and players. What would a second Donegal club do to Finn Harps? Or a second Waterford or Cork club in those cities. I don't think it would be helpful for the league.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

There already is a colleges league. What'd be the point in creating a new competition of pretty much exactly the same thing?

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Do you have a link to the league table?

Salthill and Mervue being in the LoI did not reduce the number of fans going to watch Galway Utd. People stayed away other factors maybe, but not to go and support the other 2 clubs.
It might reduce the level of sponsorship available ag match/match ball level for the leading club, but it wouldn't be a significant sum.
Connection and an identity with a club is what matters and not where they are located.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

If the LOI ends up like AIL rugby and if that is the height of our ambition then we are really goosed. Same with the GAA comparison. We should strive for intercounty levels of support, not local club levels.

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But your GAA comparison is invalid because you're comparing the equivalent of international and club football. Pro 14 isn't an option in football, so the AIL structure comparison does challenge the original point that we don't know what a pyramid is in this country. That doesn't mean I expect top matches in front of crowds of 200 or whatever the AIL gets.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

"Almost". Some don't. It doesn't mean we should.

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Yeah, it does though. Pretty much the only exception is us. I've shown why it's bad (and there's another example coming up). You've not given any reasons for your view, or why it trumps the view of the FAI's High Performance Director.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

The model can work IMO, if someone with a brain sat down and planned for growing the appeal for new clubs to join and helped and supported new clubs like Tralee etc.

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But that was how Dublin City, Sporting Fingal, Kildare County, Kilkenny City, Monaghan United, etc came into the league. How did that work out? Kildare County in particular is a very good example of everything that's wrong with the current setup - the existing Newbridge Town were so worried about it all going wrong and having no way of backing out without losing their place in the LSL that they created a whole new entity to join the LoI. A new entity with no history, no momentum, no nothing. It did well for a couple of years and then died a death.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

Of course not. My point is that 1st division clubs were against having B teams in the division.

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OK, though none of that has anything to do with my point?

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

All fair enough. But iirc, the presense of those two clubs weakened Galway in terms of fans and players.

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You might recall Galway went bankrupt and dropped out of the league all on their owney-oh. Appointing Nick Leeson as CEO really wasn't a smart move. Galway have no-one to blame but themselves for being appallingly run.