Republic of Ireland V Norway - Wednesday, 17th November 2010 - Friendly

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Originally Posted by Predator

Seems I wasn't far wrong. Trap values experience and consistency; when asked about it, Trap said:
“In this moment we had a good balance on the pitch. I thought we had changed many situations. The draw satisfied us because in the second half we played well.

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The only thing that really bothers me about tonight is this. Usually I don't have a problem with friendly results but the biggest benefit Trap brought to the Irish set-up, in my mind, is a winning mentality - or at least a do-not-lose-at-all-costs-mentality. After the last few results we have to start building momentum to the crucial Macedonian games as quickly as possible. And tonight, despite all the withdrawals, was a great opportunity to do that.

We shouldn't have been satisfied with a draw - that attitude always leads to the sucker punch, the late goal, the hammer blow. We should've been looking to win at home against a very, very mediocre outfit. I'm really quite cheesed off we lost. Long term I think it's bad news to the team mentality. I mean Norn Iron dug out a draw tonight against Morocco with a team they scraped together. A late equalising peno perhaps, but that team headed home feeling chuffed. Our side, with quite a few new faces, could be feeling quite discouraged.

There are positives from tonight, and maybe this is a little dramatic, but I can't help but feel all these missed opportunites and half performances are going to cost us long term.

We're actually quite fortunate to have these Celtic Cup games - fairly competitive fixtures which should be played at a good pace - to fine tune the team and get our confidence and mentality right for the qualifiers. It hasn't been the best half a year but at least we have a few games to get some consistency back.

Lads, anyone record the game who can upload it? In India so the time difference was too much to stay up for it. Would appreciate it! Sounds from the post-match reaction that a Whelan-Fahey midfield could be the future

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Originally Posted by rebelmusic

Lads, anyone record the game who can upload it? In India so the time difference was too much to stay up for it. Would appreciate it! Sounds from the post-match reaction that a Whelan-Fahey midfield could be the future

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Desperate for a recording of the match. Not readily available in Canada, they matches are on at 12:45pm local time for me so I'm always at work when they're on and I have no way to record it as it's not on television here. Thanks.

What have we learned from that game last night?

Cunningham is good enough to start at LB next year.

Shane Long would be in my starting 11 now. I love his enthusiasm, pace and ability to make something out of nothing.

John O'Shea has an obsession with lumping it long, even when under no pressure. STOP ******* GIVING THE BALL AWAY. He needs to be pulled up about this. The team clearly lacks leaders because he keeps doing it and nobody is going ape at him or pointing out to him that every time he does this we lose the ball.

McGeady? Most frustrating player in world football after Nani? Why pass the ball to your mate 5m to your left/right when you can try and dribble past 3 players, lose the ball and then put your team on the back foot.

Whelan/Fahey is a slight improvement on Whelan/Green. Fahey seems to get frustrated too often and will then force a hollywood style forward pass. Whelan did look a lot fitter than when he played against the Ruskies. I still don't think we have enough decen central MF to keep on playing 4-4-2.

Gutted for Coleman and Wilson. The two players I wanted to watch.

My ratings :bigsmile:

Given - 6; Probably a little bit rusty but got the job done.
Cunningham - 7; Some very encouraging signs from a young player growing in confidence. I've certainly change my opinion on him after last night's performance.
JOSH - 7; Comfortable on the ball, leader in defence, a few sloppy long balls but clearly should be played at centre half from now on.
O'Dea - 5; Too slow and laboursome for the international game.
Kelly - 6; Expected more from him as this was his chance to make the RB position his own.
Duff - 6; Little bit off the pace but looked good in the early exchanges.
Whelan - 6; Did what he was told to do.
Fahey - 6; Did what he was told to do. I think he played a few sloppy passes but these passes were forced on him due to our style of play. Otherwise showed some nice touches that allowed a continued flow in our play and helped tidy up loose balls.
Lawrence - 5; He has played better. Thought his touch and general play was quite poor.
Doyle - 6; Wasn't involved enough for my liking.
Long - 7; Another energetic performance from an improving player.

Subs:
McGeady - 6; I think he is improving as a player as he slowly learning how to make better use of the ball. Still a strong tendency to put the head down and dribble when he gets the ball but there are signs he is improving his game.
Walters - 6; Won a few balls in the air and that's why he has been drafted in.
Hunt - 5; He's not fit. I think his crossing of the ball is of a high standard.
Foley - 5; Wasn't really involved tbh. Needs to be given more game time to grow into the RB role and feel he has Trapattoni's trust in his abilities. Only then will we see what he is capable of.


Trapattoni - 4; Our tactics are too static and inflexible. We're too easy to read - teams playing a 4-5-1/ 4-3-3 formation can open us up.

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Originally Posted by Predator

Headline after headline? Surely that's hyperbole? He's played 11 games out of 13 in the Premiership, 4 of which were from the bench and he has played well. Trap said that we needed defenders and not midfielders, hinting that he would rather Clark played defence.
I almost think that Trapattoni's English makes him seem less clued in, but I have no doubt that he is.

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Fair enough it is exaggerated but Coleman is the only Irish player to collect a man of the match award in a premiership game this season and has been playing exceptional well. He has made the odd headline in the papers and has certainly been making headline after headline on this forum. Game time in a frivolous friendly against Norway was the very least he deserved.

I read in a couple of papers that he said Clark certainly isn't a defensive midfielder, he was a centre back, which I certainly don't think Trap was in a position to comment about considering he had never even met the guy.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Playing Clark at DM was a gamble which worked. If he's a long term DM or not remains to be seen - his CB potential, the position he's played in all his life, is far clearer. Bit of a theatrical comment considering Trap merely saw him as CB long term. If Clark proves a DM option I'm sure everyone, manager included, would be very happy.

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There are clear parallel's with John O'Shea here. O'Shea was an outstanding centre back (in the Ferdinand mould rather than Vidic) all through his underage and reserve career and was played at full back out of necessity and other positions, but the only position he has excelled in for us has been the 6 months he played CB. It's his main position, the one he's most comfortable in, and the position where he would ideally suit Ireland alongside Dunne. Unfortunately he's been plugging a gap for us the past 18 months and we've been lucky to call on Ledger.
Clark could suffer the same, as he's unlikely to dislodge Dunne and Collins at Villa, but could get utilised elsewhere. I wouldn't fawn at Houllier's idea of where a guy can play either, this is the man that spent some 18m on Salif Diao and the Spitter, as well as plenty of moolah on Sean Dundee etc etc.

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Originally Posted by the bear

cunningham did well , but how he merits a place and coleman doesn't is beyond me. and if trap doesn't see coleman as a winger he obviously just doesn't watch the club matches. weather it's his best position i don't know, but he's prooved he can do a good job there

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I'd say the depth in their respective positions was as much a factor as anything else.. Coleman is competing with Kelly and Foley at RF and McGeady and Lawrence at RM. At RF any one of Kelly Foley and Coleman could justifiably feel aggrieved had they been left out. I would argue that what could possibly have been learned from Lawrence and McGeady at this stage, but Trap has spoken of the importance of balance given the other withdrawels. All in I'm not too bothered about Coleman's omission.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

was played at full back out of necessity and other positions, but the only position he has excelled in for us has been the 6 months he played CB. It's his main position, the one he's most comfortable in, and the position where he would ideally suit Ireland alongside Dunne. Unfortunately he's been plugging a gap for us the past 18 months and we've been lucky to call on Ledger.

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Could the emergence of Coleman, Kelly and Foley see O'Shea move back into centre half alongside Dunne?

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Originally Posted by ifk101

My ratings :bigsmile:

McGeady - 6; I think he is improving as a player as he slowly learning how to make better use of the ball. Still a strong tendency to put the head down and dribble when he gets the ball but there are signs he is improving his game.

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I havent posted on here for ages but read regularly. However when I read the likes of this I dispair.

'improving', 'still learning' ??? Could understand that being said of a player with a half a dozen appearances. Last night was McGeady's 37th cap ffs. If he hasnt learnt by now or improved by now he never will.

IMO the most overrated player ever to wear green, a one trick pony who will never be international class.

Last night was no different to any other night with him. A simple pass on? No, beat 2 or 3 players and lose it. Track back when our attack breaks down? No, doesnt know who he should be picking up.

So frustrating to have to watch that and not get the opportunity to see Coleman or Wilson.

Seriously think after more that 30 years of going to giving it up.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Could the emergence of Coleman, Kelly and Foley see O'Shea move back into centre half alongside Dunne?

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Absolutely, and it should. Our centre half options at this stage should be Dunne & O'Shea, with Ledger next followed perhaps by Clark if he proves himself for Villa or ourselves. O'Dea is rusty and wouldn't dole out the last rites for him or anything, but he's a step back again. Kelly is not an option at centre half. Biggest loser last night was Paul McShane, as his squad place really should be gone now, with the emergence of Foley Coleman and Clark.

I dunno whether it's a lack of intelligence or just not really following the game properly, but I can never quite grasp how people struggle the notion of dropping Ledger when there is a better overall option available, yet jizz in their pants when Whelan isn't dropped. You can be dropped from the team for doing little wrong, if it's in the teams best interests.

Kelly and Foley were decent last night, and should have a battle between them over the next 6 months to see who stakes the bigger claim.

If we could uncover another left full (a fully fit Stephen O'Halloran or someone of his ilk) then we really would have good competent options right across the back 4. Ultimately it would be nice to get to a stage where if the right full gets injured or the second Cb gets injured, only one change is made, with a like for like replacement, rather than making 2 changes, and moving an established player across.

3 or 4 Alarming things stick out for me:

Trap only made changes because of injuries.
Trap only brought on Foley because of injury to O'dea.
Trap did not change his style for the sake of a friendly and go with the more attack minded combinations he could have.
Finally as YI said, trap appears not to take note of players playing for their clubs and their positions...does he even read the papers to find out?

Friendlies don't matter in terms of the result, they matter in terms of playing time, and finding potential first teamers for difficult/needed positions. We lost again last night, but yet Trap didn't alter our style, like he said he is willing to do, i think thats the biggest thing. We dont care about losing a friendly, but what matters is that Trap changes things to see if we can play different systems, and adapt appropriately. Did we really learn anything about what we could achieve last night? I dont think so. Other than another loss, and trap says not losing is the most important thing, for confidence, gain momentum etc. Yet we did lose, so Traps objective has not been met, on top of that we haven't altered our system/style of play,for situations where we WILL need to be able, so it has been a lose-lose scenario, a futile outcome.

Whelan impressed me with his passing believe it or not. I liked the power and directness behind some of his passing, we had not seen that before, but it proves he can do it, he also came looking for the ball more, was this against Traps advice? Fahey I thought would have done better with his passing but he hit some poor ones in fairness.

Mcgeady? Always seems to take the wrong option like going into players as opposed to away from them, he also seems to think that if he swarms players around him he creates space(which is true) but invariably he loses possession. There is absolutely no consistency in him, 1 step forward 2 steps back, 2 steps forward 1 step back, 2 steps forward 4 steps back. What did trap gain by bringing him the whole way to dublin midweek for a half?

Cunningham has proved he can pass with both feet, that is enough for me to start playing him ahead of kilbane. That is not a joke, its one attribute more than kilbane.

Long is strong, but i wouldn't be getting carried away with him yet, like some others are. He has a good bit more to prove to be honest.

Hunt/Walters/Lawrence all ok, average really, nothing to write home about apart from a few headers here and there, but never directed to irish players by walters, one cross from lawrence of note. Duff was winning ball, but his lack of pace is begining to prohibit him unfortunately still a great pressure lifter and free winner.

O'Dea/Oshea hopefully we wont see that combination together again. Kelly solid enough, but unspectacular.

Whats worrying is Trap, is getting a lot of criticism, from all angles, a lot of it is merited, thats the real problem.

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Originally Posted by Superhoops

I havent posted on here for ages but read regularly. However when I read the likes of this I dispair.

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I'm no fan of McGeady and I wouldn't start him in a competitive game. But I'm willing to give each player the opportunity to change the opinion I've formed on them with each international they play. Like I said I saw signs of improvement but he still takes too much out of the ball. There was a moment right at the end when he had a great opportunity to play a tap in ball to give Long a shot at goal but he chose to dribble. It's frustrating but I thought over the course of the 45 mins he played, he did play some balls that were of a higher standard than what I've come to expect from him. Anyways there no need to go OTT, I don't pick the team. You'd do well to keep your despair for a more opportune time.

OH ya, for those who didn't see sky it was interesting to see what andrews and kilbane were saying about Long. Kinda makes sense to how his last few games have gone.

Btw foley is the only Irish player to start all games this season. Trap has not seen him play once i reckon, coleman has been playing right midfield the last 7 out of 8 games, Clark has been playing midfield. This is the problem with Trap, do we really want a manager who scans a programme or looks up a players profile on the web to find out their position and only sees them in that position? It also smacks of poor training/lack of freedom of expression for players in training, because surely he could see these attributes in training and any old fool(footballing manager or average joe playing junior football) could figure out where his best position is?

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Could the emergence of Coleman, Kelly and Foley see O'Shea move back into centre half alongside Dunne?

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Thats what im thinking and hoping. Again will Trap see it that way though? He is like the old dog with new tricks, the old hat always fits best.


IFK101 do you think Mcgeady will be 32 when he has completely improved and is the final product, except he has lost all his pace, and that is the ONLY thing that makes him stand out amongst the rest?

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

IFK101 do you think Mcgeady will be 32 when he has completely improved and is the final product, except he has lost all his pace, and that is the ONLY thing that makes him stand out amongst the rest?

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I'm not a clairvoyant paul_oshea but I think the move to Russia has been positive for his game.

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Originally Posted by Predator

Earlier, in response to outrage over Coleman not getting on, I said:

Seems I wasn't far wrong. Trap values balance and consistency; when asked about it, Trap said:
“In this moment we had a good balance on the pitch. I thought we had changed many situations. The draw satisfied us because in the second half we played well.

“I wish to focus on the team,” he added when pressed again.

“I could also have left out Duff but it’s important on the pitch to have a team with balance. It’s not easy in two days to change a player’s habit. We can play with (Keith) Treacy or Coleman and another team and you could lose two or three-nil."

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Pat yourself on the back predator!

"circumstances didn't dictate", what circumstances? Because it was raining and coleman would melt in the rain? Or because we had a few injuries, in a non-competitive fixture against a very mediocre side(dont give me world rankings) who were happy to just sit back all game long? Or so we might not lose? Oh wait we did?

Listen, im not that annoyed that coleman didnt play, but when i read these comments and hear what Trap says this is what pees me off and think what are people talking about? Take off traps glasses for a while and think objectively.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Pat yourself on the back predator!

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Thanks, I'm great.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

"circumstances didn't dictate", what circumstances? Because it was raining and coleman would melt in the rain? Or because we had a few injuries, in a non-competitive fixture against a very mediocre side(dont give me world rankings) who were happy to just sit back all game long? Or so we might not lose? Oh wait we did?

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The fact that O'Dea got injured. The fact that we conceded. In Trapattoni's mind, these are the circumstances which dictated his not handing Coleman a debut - which was simply my original suspicion.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Listen, im not that annoyed that coleman didnt play, but when i read these comments and hear what Trap says this is what pees me off and think what are people talking about? Take off traps glasses for a while and think objectively.

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All along I've said that I'd have liked Coleman to get a run out; I think he deserves it. All I was saying is that I understood why Trap didn't give him the chance.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

OH ya, for those who didn't see sky it was interesting to see what andrews and kilbane were saying about Long. Kinda makes sense to how his last few games have gone.

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Would be more interesting if you told us what they said?

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Btw foley is the only Irish player to start all games this season.

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Stephen Carr at Birmingham. Also, Foley didn't start against Southend in the League Cup

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Trap has not seen him play once i reckon

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Objection, conjecture

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

, coleman has been playing right midfield the last 7 out of 8 games, Clark has been playing midfield.

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For the first time in his career, and the manager's was forced to play him out there because of injuries. Also, irrelevant seeing as how FIFA clearance didn't come through in time for the initial squad announcement, and Clark was injured for the game anyway

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

This is the problem with Trap, do we really want a manager who scans a programme or looks up a players profile on the web to find out their position and only sees them in that position? It also smacks of poor training/lack of freedom of expression for players in training, because surely he could see these attributes in training and any old fool(footballing manager or average joe playing junior football) could figure out where his best position is?

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Like playing O'Shea at centre half and right full? Or Keogh on the wing, and up front? Or Kelly at right full and centre half? Or Fahey on the left and in the middle? Didn't Andrews fill in at right full once for us as well under Trapattoni? Steven Reid in the centre, think he was playing right full at Blackburn at the time?

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Originally Posted by Predator

Thanks, I'm great.

The fact that O'Dea got injured. The fact that we conceded. In Trapattoni's mind, these are the circumstances which dictated his not handing Coleman a debut - which was simply my original suspicion.

All along I've said that I'd have liked Coleman to get a run out; I think he deserves it. All I was saying is that I understood why Trap didn't give him the chance.

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Yes you are predator, is that what yer mammy told you too :D Only messin!

When you say understand do you mean empathise or sympathise? I mean do you see from a deluded point of view given we lost or what? Do you agree? Do you think it was right, again given we lost, and given we have lost most of our friendlies under trap? Do you really think the objective is being met? Cos I don't understand why Trap says these things given the objective is rarely met.